Jesse Johnson interview recording, 1995 August 11
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| Jesse J. Johnson | All right. My name is Jesse J. Johnson, Lieutenant Colonel, retired from the US Army. My date of birth is May the 15th, 1914. Born in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. | 0:00 |
| Blair Murphy | And could you tell me a little bit about what growing up in Harrisburg was like? | 0:19 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Yes. From the age of one to about six, I don't remember much, but my mother died with influenza during the great influenza epidemic. I don't remember her hardly. So let's see. I was the oldest then I had a sister named Annie Johnson and a brother named Isaiah Johnson, Jr. We three were taken to the farm of my mother's parent in Brandon, Mississippi. That's about a hundred mile north of Hattiesburg. And I'm so proud that I had a chance to live with them because it taught me a great deal in life. | 0:26 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | My grandparents were a "prosperous" Black family. They had about 175 acres of land, and they had orchards and cotton fields and corn fields and watermelon fields and cherry trees, peach trees, pecan trees, cows, horses, chickens and everything that goes along with the farm, mules, wagons. And they had the community store for the rural community. And of course, I've learned later that my grandfather was of possibly Cherokee descent. It is said that his father fought in the Civil War. However, I've been unable to document that. He was supposed to have died when my grandfather was a baby. And of course my grandmother married again. And that was my great-grandmother, married again. | 1:19 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And I grew up there on the farm for two years while my father was looking for another wife. Eventually, he decided to marry another girl from that community named Bonnie Belle Proctor. And when he married her, he took we children to Jackson, Mississippi for a year or two. And after that, he took us back to Hattiesburg, Mississippi where I was born, all three of us. And I stayed there until I finished high school. I finished high school in 1933. | 2:40 |
| Blair Murphy | So what was Harrisburg like? | 3:25 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Hattiesburg was about 18,000 population, predominantly White, but to a large extent, there were a lot of Black people because incidentally, I was accustomed to seeing Black people as a sort of almost a majority or half until I was about 20 when I went to the north. And I saw so many White people. It was a surprise to me. When I grew up in Mississippi, I thought that the majority of the people in the United States were Black because we were 51% of the population. Hattiesburg was very prejudiced White people. And I never, while there, met a friendly White person. | 3:29 |
| Blair Murphy | What were some of the ways they manifested that prejudice? | 4:31 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Yes. They would not speak to us. They were insulting. Politicians would use the nigger terms and make bad jokes about the niggers, but we couldn't even vote. And he was appealing to the public to vote for him, the White folk. And of course, we were segregated in school and in high school, we were segregated in colleges. We were segregated on the transportation. And it was really a demeaning situation. I never personally accepted it, but I couldn't do anything about it. | 4:33 |
| Blair Murphy | Well, how were the communities separated? | 5:22 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Physically? Communities by separate segregated communities with all Black communities. And of course, the city was primarily White. The better homes were White. The Black community was on the outer skirts of the city, and we'd have to go to town, do our shopping and so forth. We had to ride through the White community and better homes. And that's the way segregation worked, community-wise. And of course, I lived in that environment for 19 years. | 5:24 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I finished high school, of course, I was two years behind in high school because I stayed two years in the country. And in the rural area, I went to school about four months out of a year. And the school was one room for about seven grades with one teacher. And of course, we had the pot belly stove for heat, long benches for seats and no desk. And the teacher taught seven grades. Of course, we boys had to go out in the woods and bring in the wood for the heater. And that's what I had for two years. And now— | 6:05 |
| Blair Murphy | So well, before you go on, I wanted to ask you do, if you knew how your maternal grandparents had obtained the land. | 7:01 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I've checked on that. Well, unfortunately, my grandmother, the wife, my grandmother, my mother's mother, father was a White man and of course, my grandfather was, as I said, Cherokee, I'm told. Now, I've never known, but I believe that the White man helped the daughter and my grandfather achieve that land easily because it's very difficult down there for Blacks to get land. And of course, he was prosperous. Now, that's interesting too, because although my grandmother looked like a White lady, she refused to accept his name, his last name. She accepted her mother's name, her last name. However, she has sisters and brothers who accepted his name. The sisters and brothers, McLaren, while she was Allen, her maiden name was Allen. And of course, she was pro-Negro. And she married my grandfather who looked like a dark Indian. | 7:09 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And incidentally, when I was out there for two years, I was not conscious of race because just people to me, although my relatives were all shades, and I wasn't conscious of race until I went to Jackson, Mississippi and Hattiesburg, Mississippi. And when I finished high school, 1933, June, 1933, that was amidst of the great economic depression that shaped my life [indistinct 00:09:07] that there were millions of White people and Black people unemployed, millions of them all over the country. People were looking for jobs. There were no jobs. There was no temporary relief, no social security, nothing in '33. It didn't start about '36 or '37. And they needed food. And there were no jobs for high school graduates because the grown men had the little jobs that that were available to try to feed their families. | 8:29 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | People were losing their homes, White and Black, million. Men were going up and down the road. They'd hear that a job, some jobs were available at a certain city and they'd hobo a train and go there looking for work. That's the atmosphere in which I graduated. When I finished high school, I applied to all the Black colleges that I knew the college. Let me go back. In high school, I was what they called an accelerated student. I made four grades in three years. And I made those grades because of my brilliant Black male science teacher. He was sort of a role model. All of my teachers were role models. All of them were Black. But he was a great role model because, I tell everybody this, he had an in encyclopedic mind, he had a memory that didn't fail. He knew all of his books, all of his sciences, all of his maths verbatim. | 9:46 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | He would come into the classroom talking as soon as we sat down. And then he was talking until we left the classroom. And most students couldn't follow him, but I did. I'm not boasting, I'm just telling you a fact. I don't boast. But when I finished high school, I wanted to be a scientist because of his inspiration. Well, I met him in the ninth grade. Before that, my models were the ministers, Black ministers. So I wanted to be a minister to try to help my people. But when I saw that I might be able to help my people in science and the nation, I turned my aspiration to being a scientist and maybe a minister. So when I finished high school in about June, 1933, as I said, I applied to all the Black colleges as a work student. I wanted to enter as a work student because I was penniless. The only college that responded to my inquiries, my applications was Tuskegee Institute. | 10:54 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Tuskegee Institute, at that time, had a work program so that the student could work five years for a four year degree, working his way through. And incidentally, as a sidelight, in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, a few blocks from my home there was the University of Southern Mississippi. But it was segregated, all White at that time. And it probably integrated until maybe the sixties and seventies. All right, I decided to do what I call the Booker T Washington. I read his story up from slavery, I don't know whether you've ever read it. Up from slavery, he migrated from, much of his way from West Virginia to Hampton University. And we arrived there, he was penniless. He became one of my role models. And I said, now, if he did it in the 1870s, I'm going to try it in 1930s, to go to one college. Tuskegee, replied. And I had only $35. I needed $50 to go there and work for five years. And I had only $35 from my newspaper money as a newspaper boy. | 12:23 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | So I decided in about August, 1933 to just leave home and go from college to college, knocking on doors, ask people, let me work my way. And of course, to look for a job. I caught a train and went to New Orleans, Louisiana. And fortunately, there was a very educated Black man at the railroad station. When I got off, he had been a farmer, reconstruction origin and politician. But they put him out of politics at that time, he had been pushed out of politics. So he ran a little hotel and he came to me very intelligent, made a good impression. He said, "Young man, where you going?" And I told him what I wanted and I was looking. He said, "Well, I'll show you." | 13:41 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | At about four that evening, he said, "Come to my hotel and I'll show you where you can go to these colleges and see whether they'll accept you." So luckily this, I guess, in God's hand that he was there. He's very intelligent, very good man. So I went to his hotel, paid my, I think it's $3 a night out of 35. And he told me to go to New Orleans University, all Black school, which is now Dillard University. So I went over there by the [indistinct 00:15:12] and everything, long way from the hotel, maybe 40, 50 blocks by segregated transportation, my bags and everything. And I got there about one, and the Black president wouldn't interview me. He didn't. I sat down until about five and he refused to interview me. So I went back to the hotel and told the man that the man didn't interview me. | 14:34 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | He said, "Well, go a few blocks down to Straight College", which is a few blocks, maybe about 10 blocks from where I was living. So I went over there and asked the president, who turns out to be a White man from Connecticut and a missionary. And I told him what I wanted and I wanted to work my way. And he said, "Well, young man, if you can stay around here until September, maybe I can find your work job." So August or September, I was around there struggling for the room and board and no money, no job. Couldn't find any job. People were unemployed, greatly unemployed. So I stayed there hungry. But in September, the president, the White president, allowed me to go into the dormitory. That was just like going from ground to heaven because there they had nice electricity and running water and my own room. | 15:42 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And in fact, there were two other roommates there with me and all the modern facilities, nice diet, food. It's a miracle to me now how he could get so much food for the students during the depression. But he must have had support from the north, because the southern organizations and businesses wouldn't support. So they offered me the job to take care of the lawn, mowing the lawn. So I did what I call the Booker T. Washington. Booker T did that room immaculately to be accepted at Hampton University. And I did the lawn immaculately to make a good impression. Luckily, the president, the student, the faculty could all see it. So I kept it trimmed and everything. Push type mower. There was no electric power in those days. | 16:52 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I stayed there two years working my way through 100%. The only money that came in, came in from a White missionary group of women from Parkerville, Connecticut. They sent $25 to the college and told the president to give it to a deserving student. So the president called me in and told me who they were and that the $25 would be put on my bill. And that's what he did. He gave me the address of the people. So I wrote them a thank you letter. But this is what I did for the thank you letter. Oh, I was sophomore then. I went to the library and looked up all the big words to show how well educated I was, and wrote them a lengthy letter. And they wrote me back and said, "Young man, great men use small words." And that stayed with me the rest of my life. But I was so thankful for them. And then incidentally, many years later, I got in touch with that church and sent them money. | 18:01 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I was so thankful because that's the only outside help I received in four years of college. I had to make my way. I received nothing from home. Luckily, my father had a job during that depression. You see, he was a country boy accustomed to hard work. So they gave him a job at a factory that cut the trees from the forest and then trimmed those trees into lumber for houses. And of course, he was lucky to have that job, whereas where most people were unemployed, but the salary was low and he couldn't save anything. My brother told me later that after he paid debt and that little house note and everything, he had about 35 cents left each week. So he couldn't send me anything. | 19:19 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I made two years there, but NOU, New Orleans University that I visited first, that rejected me and Straight College combined to make Dillard University, they unified and they went out of existence. So that meant that I had to find another college that would accept the all work student. So I applied to Dillard University, went over there. In fact, I cleaned some of the old bricks that they were bringing over there to build the new buildings as a student. But they wouldn't accept me as a work student, so I had to find another place. | 20:20 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And fortunately, I had to go back to Hattiesburg, Mississippi for a few months. And I decided to go to Tougaloo College, T-O-U-G-A-L-O-O College in Mississippi. Fortunately, the president of Tougaloo College at that time was the same White man that had been the president of Straight College. I went up there in September, uninvited. They didn't tell me to come up. Uninvited. I went there and I did the Booker T. Washington. I asked them to let me work my way. And the president and the treasurer knew me. So they accepted me as a work student at Tougaloo College. | 21:00 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And I worked the same job, primarily keeping the lawn. Now, Tougaloo College is an old farm, about 500 acres, an old slave farm. It was huge compared to Straight College, which was on the main street of New Orleans, Canal Street. Now, I worked so hard at Tougaloo College. And the [indistinct 00:22:14] was not as strong as at Straight College. And I had to leave college in my senior year because I worked so hard night and day, I ran out of energy. So I had to take a rest. Then I applied for, at that time, Civilian Conservation Camps will begun. Have you ever heard of that? | 21:44 |
| Blair Murphy | Vaguely. | 22:41 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Vaguely. That's a camp for poor boys. And it was financed by the US government. They paid the basic fee with $30 a month and clothing, housing, food, and medical care, in camps like the Army. So I applied to then Mississippi to be accepted. Oh, when I went to the office to apply, there were about 19 Black boys there to apply for CCC camps. | 22:42 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | While we were there, about three White boys came in. They were farmers because they were full of farm mud and everything. Hair was long and they were illiterate. You know they were illiterate because they had to use the men's room, they went to the Colored men's room. They couldn't read the signs. So we told them over there was the—They said, "Excuse us, we ignorant." They went to the White men's room. But the White lady took them into the office and interviewed them for about an hour or more and apparently accepted them. But she came to the door and said, "What do you boys want?" There were about 19 of us there. "What do you boys want?" One courageous like boy, not myself, jumped up and said, "We want to apply for the CCC camp." She said, "I ain't taking no more applications today." | 23:18 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | So they were accepting applicants every four months. And of course, the newspaper reported that about 975 boys had been accepted for CCC camp, but only about 75 were Black. But the Blacks were in greater needs than the Whites, but they wouldn't accept us. So I waited around there and wasn't accepted, so I decided to go to Chicago and Detroit where a lot of my relatives had gone. When I got off the train in Chicago, a White policeman came up to me and spoke in a friendly manner and started a conversation. I'd never had that experience before in my life and I was in my twenties. And I thought it was wonderful cause I'd heard about the north's men. And then as I looked around the train station, there were thousands of White people and very few Blacks. That was new to me, because in our train stations, most of us was sometime Black people. | 24:20 |
| Blair Murphy | What year was that? | 25:40 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Huh? | 25:40 |
| Blair Murphy | What year? | 25:40 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | That was 1937. | 25:40 |
| Blair Murphy | Okay. | 25:40 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | 1937. I left college about February about April, 1937. And I tried around Chicago to get on a job, find a job. No jobs around there. So in about a year, I went to Detroit. And in Detroit, I applied for jobs including CCC work. So they accepted me up there in Detroit. And it was sent to a camp. And I was in three and a half years college. I had three and a half years college. Most of the boys for high school dropouts. And so they put me in the office and I became an office worker. See, there were three status in the CCC. There was a private, assistant leader, and a leader, you see. So they immediately made me a leader and I stayed in the office there until '38. | 25:42 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And then I went back to Mississippi. Oh see, in Michigan, the Black boys camps were an all White neighborhood, about 300 miles, way up in Detroit. And there were no Black neighborhoods. And I always had an aspiration to do something for my own people. And so I left CCC and went back to Mississippi, hoping to get on down there. And I went to, again, to CCC to see if they would accept me. They would not speak to me, although I had about a year and a half of experience or something and knew what it was all about. They wouldn't even speak to me. | 26:43 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | So I went to my grandparents' home, rural, with the idea of maybe cultivating an old Black neighborhood out there on all that land. See, next to that 175 acres, my father had 40 acres. And next to that 40 acres, his father had 80 acres. So that was 80, 40, and about 175 acres all there together. So my idea was that since Blacks were not doing so well in the cities maybe to start something there as a support for the them. So when I was looking around out in the country, one day I wanted to go to town for something, there was a White man driving the truck with three Black men loading the truck with trees that had been cut short enough to go in the truck bed. So I went up to the White man to ask him if he was going to the city. | 27:24 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I wanted to ride with them, thumb a ride. And he looked down at me and said, "No, I'm not going that way." I said to myself, I said, "Uh-huh." Trying to figure out how I could get to town. He looked down at me and said, "Nigger, did you say yeah to me, a White man?" And I looked up surprised. He was sitting in that high truck. And he said it again, "Nigger, did you say yeah to me, a White man?" "Actually, I just said, uh-huh, to myself, thinking." And he hit himself in the chest again and said, "Did you say yeah to me, a White man?" And I was surprised. I was still standing there. So he was down, got that long crank and swing at my head and I just did duck. And when I ducked, I fell back and I said to the Black men, now we were about 10 or 20 miles from the nearest [indistinct 00:29:29] | 28:29 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I said to the Black men, "Let's get him. Let's get him. Let's get him." They didn't stop loading the truck. That taught me, that second, that I had no protection in Mississippi. So I decided that moment to leave Mississippi. That was 1937. And of course, I've told you about going north and getting work with the CCC. Now, I decided to go back to college and get my degree because I had all except four and a half months my degree. So I went back to college and I got my degree. | 29:29 |
| Blair Murphy | Where'd you go back to? | 30:18 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Then I went back to Michigan. Then I became a teacher with CCC Camp. I applied for teaching with CCC Camp, which was officer status. And luckily, I worked there, that was '39, 1939. I became a teacher. And I worked with them until the war started, World War II. And then the camps closed down about a month earlier because people were receiving employment in industries during the war. And they drafted me. I was being drafted. So in about July, August, or September, well, in October, 1942, I was drafted as a private. When I was drafted as a private, fortunately, when I went to the camp at Fort Custer Michigan, a White captain who had worked with me in CCC camps, was a commander. And with about 300 of us privates there, standing there, Black, the Whites were segregated in the other part of the fort. And he looked at me and he said, "Private Johnson, what do you want in the Army?" No, no. He said, "Private Johnson, come to my office." | 30:20 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | So I went to his office and he said, "Well, what do you want, Private Johnson in the Army?" I said, "I'd like to be an officer, sir, if I can." Because I'd had officer status as a teacher, I knew the difference between officer status and enlisted status. And he said, "Well, I'm going to have to send you over to one of those southern camps where they got a lot of Negro troops." [indistinct 00:32:20] Fortunately, this White captain with whom I'd worked in CCC Camp two or three years in Michigan had been impressed by my work. So he said, "I'll have to send you to the south where they got a Negro troops before you have a chance to become an officer." I'd been reading in the Black newspapers about how they were mistreating Black soldiers down here. Very bad. I said, "Sir, can you send me to the east or the north or the west?" | 31:52 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | He said, "If I send you there, you'll remain a private or PFC for the rest of the war because it's mostly White soldiers." Then I took two or three seconds, I said, "Sir, send me to the south." And he called the personnel officer and said, "Do you have any men going to Fort Lee, Virginia? Camp Lee, Virginia?" They said, "Sir, we have just cut the order for a train loaded troops going to Camp Lee, Virginia." And he said, "Well, let's amend the order and put Private Jesse J. Johnson on it." And about three days later I was on the train, train load of White and Black troop, long train load going to Fort Lee, Camp Lee, Virginia. So for days we were on the train and we arrived at Camp Lee, Virginia. And of course, we were segregated. They put us in charge of Black sergeants and White also, and the White soldiers were marched to the front of the camp. | 32:52 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | We were marched to the last buildings in the camp. That was the standard practice for the whole war to segregate us. And of course, the Black sergeants had been selected for big voice and counting, rate and counting and so forth in their military training. And I can still hear them counting. They marched us and I can still hear their counts 50 years later. They took us to the last buildings and put me in a company as private. And we were allowed to apply for Officers Candidate School in six weeks. Now, this White captain gave me a letter of recommendation for Officers Candidate School, but I needed two more. So I contacted the Black medical officer, who's a captain at that time, and he gave me a recommendation for Officers Candidate School. Then I contacted my minister up in Detroit. He gave me a nice letter of recommendation. | 34:04 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I still have copies of them, still have copies of them for Officers Candidate School. Six weeks. I applied in six weeks. In about my eighth week, they called me for an interview to be interviewed by a White board of officers, colonels, and majors and so forth. And the day that they called me, a Black sergeant was also called. He was a peacetime soldier who had made sergeant. I was private. He had made sergeant, he'd been in maybe about nine years because he had three stripes. Each stripe represented three years, you see. | 35:08 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And he was sergeant. So they interviewed both of us and about two weeks later a letter came out and said, "Private Jesse J. Johnson is qualified for Officers Candidate School. But sergeant, blah, blah blah, blah, I've forgotten his name is not qualified. I was surprised. I thought, sure, that he would be accepted. But in my research, I have found out that a college degree was required by Blacks to be commissioned officers. And I think that he was not college educated, didn't have a degree. | 35:47 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Now, White officers, if they made the intelligence score on that test that they gave us,, they could become officers with second grade, high school dropouts, high school graduates. So well, they could become officers. But luckily for me, I struggled through college, see penniless. I went to OCS. I finished three months basic training at Lee. Rigorous training. Then I was sent across the base to Officers Candidate School. And of course, there we were integrated in the Officer Candidate School because the NAACP had protested. | 36:24 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | In World War I, they segregated the Black officers to train them segregated. But they integrated us. However, this was a propulsion. There were about 12 of us Negro troops compared to 700 cadets. The class had 700 cadets. We were about 12. And luckily, I passed, I made the second lieutenant in three months. So in six months, I was a second lieutenant from private to second lieutenant. Whereas many men, millions of men in the armed forces never did get that far. Or it took them 2, 3, 4 years. | 37:12 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Some of the White fellows in my class had been in the Army maybe two, three years to make second lieutenant. Well, I made second lieutenant and then my trouble started. There was a policy not to utilize Black officers. So they put us in what they call an officer's pool at Camp Lee, Virginia awaiting assignment, duty. So while in this officers pool, we had little or no duties to perform. And I volunteered for some classes and so forth, military classes. And at the end of three months, they sent us, about eight of us to Louisiana for an assignment. So we thought that since there's eight of us, they must be starting two Black companies at four officers per company. We were happy. | 37:58 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | we arrived there, they didn't know we were coming. They had White officers in the positions. So we were on the sideline and weren't given any duties hardly. But about two or three weeks, they shipped us to Texas. And we arrived there, was the same situation. The White officers had all [indistinct 00:39:23], and we were on the sideline. | 39:01 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | It would work this way. If there were second lieutenant, White, Black second lieutenant, we report to duty at 8:00 AM, 15 minutes to eight. The White captain would say, Lieutenant so and so, you do such and such a thing. That's the White lieutenant. And lieutenant so and so, I don't have anything for you today, talking to us. So that's the way it worked. So what I did, I went by the library. I told the Black first sergeant, he was an old peacetime soldier. You've heard of the Buffalo soldier, the Navy. | 39:27 |
| Blair Murphy | Uh-huh. | 40:05 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | All right. He's an old Buffalo soldier that worked up to First Sergeant. I'd tell him where I was at the library across the street and I started reading books and trying to find a solution to this race situation. And of course, I was reading for history, I'm a history major. And I read books, books, books, books all day. Some of the other lieutenants went downtown. But I told sergeant where I was. Because see, the day I entered the Army, I said, now if I survive the war and don't become a little white cross, I'm going to make it a career. Because I learned the advantage of it with CCC camp. You see, which is similar to the Army. And that's not all, I had aspired to either be a scientist or go into the military. | 40:05 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | My brother told me, I'd forgot that, my brother told me not too long ago that when I was eight or nine years old in Jackson, Mississippi, I said that I wanted to join the Army. He told me that. Well, he told me that I'd get killed in the Army if I went into the Army. And he said that I'd say, I don't care. I'd be glad to give my life for my country. I don't remember that, but my brother does. He told me. But anyway, I had double interest in life. Army, well, Army, minister, scientist. Those were my great interests. Now, I stayed in the Army for 20 years, but much much of my career was pushed to the sideline, well, I was pushed to the sideline. But I stayed with it. I didn't give up like some of our people. Many of our people gave up. | 41:10 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | You see, during World War II, there were about 6,500 Black officers in the armed forces as a total, and at peace time, it was cut down to about 1100. And many of them were pushed out against their will. Cutbacks during peace time. | 42:06 |
| Blair Murphy | Yeah. | 42:27 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Well, I was lucky enough to stay in. Of course, while I was in, I was at Philippines, Korea. See, I was on my way to the Philippines when the war ended and surrender was signed. I was about three days out of California on the way to the Philippines with a long convoy of trucks, not trucks, ships, ships of White and Black soldiers. Many of them have been to Europe and Germany had surrendered. And when they surrendered, they diverted our convoy to Hawaii. We hadn't passed Hawaii. They took us off and then they began to screen those men who wanted to come back home, get out of the Army, who'd been to Europe in combat, so forth. They screened them out and let them come back home. But those who wanted to stay in, including me, I volunteered to stay in, sent us on to the Philippines. | 42:28 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And when I arrived at the Philippines in December, 1945, so the war ended September '45. When I arrived there in December '45, I saw destruction in Manila, the war. It was absolutely destroyed. And the people were in poverty, men and women and boys and children. Boys and girls were just hungry and begging, no food for them or anything. Very few clothes because the Japanese had taken it. And during the war, they destroyed what they didn't take, you see. When I saw that, I couldn't sleep for two or three weeks. I saw the destruction firsthand of war. And I was in the Philippines for six months. Then I was sent to Korea, by the way of Japan. | 43:37 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | The plane landed in Japan. We were there about a week or 10 days. And then they sent me to Korea. That was 1946. And Korea was very isolated at the time. The Korean population was very hostile to American soldiers, White and Black, no friendliness. And of course, the Russians had North Korea and Americans had South Korea and it was a very isolated existence. I was there nearly two years and it wasn't pleasant, but I stuck with it. Grit and determination. Just like in college, you see. So then it so happened that when I had to be reassigned to the United States, when I was at Fort Lee, while I was waiting for orders, I had volunteered for a little course, a military course. And they looked on that and saw that I had taken that course. So they sent me to Fort Campbell, Kentucky from Korea. | 44:40 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Oh incidentally, while I was in Korea, a White officer, White captain who had been born in Japan before the war started, of missionary parent, started a Japanese course, spoken Japanese. I joined the course. Others were White. But eventually in a few weeks, the people stopped coming to the class. But luckily, I met a Korean man who had been born in Japan, but who was a teacher in Korea who wanted to learn English. So I taught him English after duty at five or 6:00, after I eat supper, he'd come by my house and study English and then he teach me— | 45:57 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I was there nearly two years, as I said. And—Oh, the accommodations for the Black officers. There were only two Black officers located in Busan, Korea, which is the very tip of Korea. Just like Florida, it's a peninsula. And that was the tip, the porch. Busan. They gave the two Black officers, myself and another one, a 12 room Japanese mansion to live in, where the White officers were on the other side of town in segregated accommodations. | 0:01 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | That was the situation in—And, of course, our companies was, what we call, a reclamation and maintenance company. We repair clothes and shoes for the divisions and gasoline and bread, support for the troops. Now, when they sent me back to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, I heard that they sent hundreds of Black officers to Fort Lee, Virginia. Camp Lee, Virginia. But here's what they did: each company was allowed about four officers but they put 90 or a hundred Black officers in one company. You see, there was 90 some odd officers excess. What they did, they weeded them out in cutbacks. | 0:43 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Luckily, I was at Campbell, Kentucky and I didn't get weeded out. While I was there, I met another White man who befriended me. See, I've never been a politician, but I impressed people with my work. In fact, I didn't know much about politics at that time. At that time. I was there, let's say, from '47—No, '48 to '50, to the time of the Korean War. And he was impressed, apparently, by my work because I didn't know him, he was in the headquarters. And, of course, he was transferred to what is now the Pentagon. It was called War Department in those days. And while he was in the War Department—When the Korean War started, I was in command of a company and we'd packed up to go to Korea. All of a sudden, an order came down from the Pentagon to transfer me out. | 1:42 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I was transferred to Camp Lee, Virginia for a few months and then to ROTC duty at Virginia State College. Again, because of my college training and my limited military experience, I was sent to Virginia State College. ROTC duty. January '51. And that's where I stayed until June '53. Now, while I was in the Army, I studied, by correspondence, a law course and I started it when I was in Korea and I finished that law course and I did a lot of law work in the army. You see, in the army, White also don't like to fool with it if they're not full-time lawyers, so they give it to Negro also. I'd had a degree and I had the experience in the law, so I taught military law at ROTC and quarter master courses for three years at ROTC Virginia State College. | 3:01 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Then I was sent to—Of course, my wife was with me, she had been teaching up in Michigan until I came from Korea. She was a teacher up there and she came when we moved together there at Fort Campbell, Kentucky and then at Camp Lee Virginia. And then I got orders for Germany. And, incidentally, I received those orders this way. I began to become a little conscious of the advantages of contact. I went by the Pentagon and I took a look at my official records and it so happened that the White man who had transferred me out, so that I didn't have to go to Korea a second time, had left good word for me there at the Pentagon. He came down a year after I was at Virginia State College and told me that he was the one responsible for transferring me out. I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't even know where he was. | 4:21 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | This particular White captain got out of the service and the White major was in charge then. I went to the office, just to read my records, see what people have been saying about me. See, the efficiency reports could be sent in secretly, without letting you see them. Years later, it was different. But then, they could say anything about you. You could be the most efficient genius in the army and they could rate you as a dummy. And that happens sometimes. | 5:36 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Now, I went there to check my records and I asked the White major, who succeeded this captain who transferred me there, what I was scheduled for. And he looked at the list, he said, you're scheduled to go to Korea again. I said, sir, I've been to Korea once. And he said, oh, that's right. He struck my name off of the Korean list and put it on the European list. Now that's how I got to Europe. And my wife and I went to Europe and we took her niece with her. Six years old. And we were there for three years. | 6:08 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Then I came back to Fort Lee, Virginia with—And they put me in research. See, there'd been a lot of agitation about integration and so forth at that time, so they began to give Blacks little better assignments, duties. They put me in research, [indistinct 00:07:09] research, and in that organization, they research experimental clothes, experimental food, experimental equipment that the Army had to use, to test it. It's a testing agency. I was there for four years after leave. | 6:49 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And then, from there, I came to ROTC duty at Hampton University, January 1960. In January 1960, I was there until October 1962. Now, I entered the Army in October 1942, so that's 20 years. I applied for separation and retirement because of a struggle, whereas some of my White fellow workers wanted to stay in 30 years because it was pleasant to them. But it was never pleasant to me. I like the Armed Forces but, emotionally, it's difficult to serve when you're segregated and discriminated against and humiliated, and so forth, emotionally. | 7:28 |
| Blair Murphy | Did it ever improve? | 8:37 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Huh? | 8:38 |
| Blair Murphy | Did it ever improve as the years went by? | 8:38 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Yes. Yes, it did. They began to integrate. They integrated in 1950 during the Korean War. See, President Truman issued an order in 1948 to start integration. They were slow about integrating until the Korean War started. That, when the northern troops came down so fast, they were running over the White. For instance, where, say, 3000 White troops could go into battle and they'd come back in a Jeep. Survivors. | 8:39 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | They had to rely heavily on a lot of the Black troops. And many of them were a little older, a little more experienced than the White troops. See, because they were staying in as a career from World War II. And they sent in the all Black regimen from Japan, 24th Infantry, and the 24th Infantry was conduct or was submitted to battle. And the 24th Infantry, all Black, except a lot of the officers, they had Black officers and White officers. | 9:16 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | They won their first victory. They stopped the North Koreans and that was the first victory. And, of course, the newspapers, the Congress and everything cited them and it's a matter of record now. They began to integrate during these battles there because they needed the unity. And they put Black and White enlisted men and officers together. The Black sergeants and officers were commanding White troops and vice versa in combat and they found out that it worked better in the Korean War. | 9:52 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And, after that, they began to give Black officers a few more assignments, so that they could work up the second lieutenant, captain, major, lieutenant colonel. But I forgot to tell you that we, during World War II, were kept on the second lieutenancy for nearly about three years. You see? But the time in rank was three months. All they had to do was to put in three months and he was eligible to be promoted. | 10:37 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | They began to promote us more in '50, '51, '52, '53, in the sixties. I retired in '62 and they put me in an integrated unit at Fort Lee, Virginia, before I went to ROTC duty for a few months. And it began to feel better being in the service. You were more respected and you weren't segregated in the Armed Forces. You were still segregated in some places out in the base, in the city, housing and stores and things, street cars and things were still segregated. But, of course, the Army began to put pressure on these civilian communities to stop segregating and that people couldn't find housing for your wife and your children. And they began to put pressure after the fifties. | 11:12 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Then, in '62, I retired from ROTC. After 19 and one half years in the service, I was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel. But now, I'll remind you, some White officers were lieutenant colonel after their first year, you see. But it took me 19 and a half years. But I stuck to it. Now, that was October 1962, and the next day, Hampton University hired me as a personnel officer. They were impressed by my work. I was there for five years, then I went on leave to write my first book, Ebony Brass. I wrote up the experiences of the typical Negro officers as a group biography. Ebony Brass. And while I was on leave, and I wrote that book, vacancies occurred at Fort Eustis, Virginia for writers and mechanics. Two or 300 vacancies during the Vietnamese War. I applied and I waited about a year and I hadn't heard from them. | 12:16 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I went up there to see. I didn't know anything about civil service. When they answered, how soon they answered anything, I assumed that they were processing it for a year. I went up there at the office and asked to what my status was on my application. And an old gray-haired lady said, we don't have any vacancies for writers. Then she went back to her office and I asked a young White lady who was still standing there, I said, where do you use these writers here at Fort Eustis, Virginia? She said, oh, yeah. They use them at the extension course section where they write courses for home study. And, another place, I forgot where, but—See, I've taken about 19 years of extension studies from Fort Lee, Virginia while I was in Korea and Fort Campbell, Kentucky. | 13:37 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I've taken all those extension courses and got promoted on the reserve, not active, on the reserve to first lieutenant, captain and so forth. On the reserve. Now, I said, oh, I've take an extension course. I'd sure like to help write those courses. Said that to myself. I went to a pay station form. She said the boss for that particular job is Mr. So and So and So. I went to the pay station phone and called him and he said, yes, we need four writers. And we've been looking for them for years and we can't—Everybody was unemployed, during the Vietnamese war. You see? No unemployment around here. Yeah, we've been looking for them. We can't find them. And he said that salary is only 9,000 and some odd dollars a year. That was nearly twice of what some people at Hampton University was making a year in those days. You understand? | 14:39 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I was shocked and surprised. I contacted an Equal Employment Opportunity officer, who turned out to be a retired Black officer, and he contacted them and said what's the delay in hiring Lieutenant Colonel Johnson? And they made some excuse. But, in about a month, month and a half, they hired me as a writer. However, it developed that, see, at that time, I had three degrees: law degree, AB degree, and a master's degree from Hampton University. | 15:47 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | The White writers were high school dropouts or high school graduates that I had to work with but that didn't matter to me personally. They had been there 18 or 19 years as writers. They knew that technicality but they didn't want me there. They objected to it. And so, for 13 years, they never fully cooperated with me. However, by the hardest, I worked up to GS-11 writer correspondence, 13 years and I retired from civil service as a writer, GS-11, education specialist. By the hardest. Of course, I had to make complaints to hold my job, had to go to court to hold a job. It was very terrible. | 16:22 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | But now, the point that I want to make is this, while I was there working at Fort Eustis, I was writing books on Blacks in the military. I wrote about seven books. Blacks in the military. But it was very difficult because I had to come home and write legal briefs with a lot of my leisure time. Took me away from writing books. I could have written twice as many but I had to use my nighttime writing complaints in legal briefs. | 17:17 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And I point out to young people that I struggled through college penniless, finished college by the hardest, then, of course, I had to leave my home state, which I loved. I wanted to work and build it up and do something for the White and Black people. In fact, I had an idea then of doing something to bring White and Black people together, like Dr. King, but they weren't ready. They were a long way from ready. I point out to young people, I still love Mississippi as a state. I admire the abilities of White people to build empires. I like the armed services, except for the discrimination and humiliation. | 17:57 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And I'm pro-military, because I see that, if we hadn't won that war, the Japanese and Germans would treat us like nothing. They'd have exterminated a lot of us and made us slaves. That's what they did. Wherever they won, I don't know how much you keep up with it, but the Japanese were very cruel and they made slaves out of people and they exterminated a lot of them. Just shot them when they won. They didn't care. They didn't care about your abilities or nothing. The Japanese felt that they had enough talent among their own. All you could do is just be a slave in a mine or some labor. Just shoot you down. That would've been the condition if we hadn't won World War II. Now, of course, I put in 20 years, but I retired in '62. This is 1995. '62 to '95 is what? 33? | 18:56 |
| Blair Murphy | 33 years. | 20:07 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | In October. 33 years. And I point out now because I stuck to it. I've been retired 33 years by the hardest. Nobody gave it to me, said we're happy to have you in the military. We have to have you in the civil service. I had to push to get there. I tell young people that—They ask me if it's truly an advantage of being in the military. I tell them, yes, they're taking advantage of, historically, the Blacks have won things out in the war because they served with the White man compared to the Indian who fought the White man. And the Indians were pushed out to the reservations. | 20:11 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | We were given opportunities, more opportunities, after each war. And, of course, I'm so thankful to have stuck to it and to have retired as a lieutenant colonel and, actually, about the 39th, in US history, 350 years, to retire, you see? Because, after the war, the United States pushed us out. We didn't have a chance to retire until after World War II, you see? And so, I'm about the 39th to retire as a Lieutenant Colonel from the Armed Forces. And, of course, we were only allowed in the Army at the time, very few of us, and we weren't in the Marines. We weren't allowed to work up in the Navy. We weren't allowed to work up in the Air Force and so forth, see? Until after the Korean War. And, incidentally, that's the gist of my videotape now. But I'll show you all. But I've been retired now 33 years in October. And, of course, it's pleasant to have the income of a lieutenant colonel, plus anything else I do. | 20:59 |
| Blair Murphy | Yeah. | 22:19 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | You understand? It's pleasant. And I got there, as I say, a sacrifice. It didn't come easy. And so, I'm retired now three times. Social Security, civil service and the Army. By the hardest. And I tell young people that, to try to encourage them to stick to it in spite of everything. Now, here's what has happened. A young female, who finished ROTC 18 years ago, I encouraged her to join ROTC and to join the army. She's retiring next month. She has requested that I speak at her retirement. And so, that's a plus. But I'll speak at her retirement. She says the retirement wouldn't have a meaning unless I was there to say something. Now, I'm busy, always busy, and I've been busy since childhood when I wasn't forced to be idle. | 22:19 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | I'm busy working on videotapes about Blacks and military service, and I'll show you all some of that before you leave. Now, when I was in Germany, I studied German in night school. See, University of Maryland had courses over there for the GIs. You see, I had a degree and all I needed was a language. I studied languages in the Philippines. I studied Tagalog in the Philippines. I studied Japanese when I was in Korea. And I studied German in Germany. And I say now, as they say in Germany, [German 00:24:24]. Do you have further questions? | 23:39 |
| Blair Murphy | I'm glad you translated. Let me see. | 24:30 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | When I was on my way to Petersburg, Virginia, to go to the USO, one soldier, he was standing up but there were vacancies in the White section, so he sat down in the White section and the White captain said to the soldier, you know you're not supposed to sit there. The soldier got up and made a violent remark toward him. In fact, he was ready to start a fight or something. And, of course, there were other Black soldiers in the back of the bus and, when White captain got off at the bus station at Fort Lee, he walked hurriedly away. But I'm just showing you how tense it was. And, quite often, you see the Whites soldiers were the aggressors toward us, racially. They were harassers, called us niggers and make us feel bad. And then some of the soldiers, especially from the north, would start riots. There were many riots, race riots, among the soldiers, White and Black. And— | 24:36 |
| Blair Murphy | Was this when it was still segregated? | 25:59 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Still segregated. Yes, yes. Very few during integration. But when segregated— | 26:01 |
| Blair Murphy | Why do you think they would even bother? Because the military was trying to make White soldiers better, so you think that they would be pleased with their status and wouldn't— | 26:07 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | At what time? | 26:20 |
| Blair Murphy | During segregation. | 26:21 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | During segregation. | 26:21 |
| Blair Murphy | The White soldiers would've been pleased with their opportunities and their status. | 26:23 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Some of them were not. They had a very racist attitude toward us. For instance, at Fort Lee, Virginia, when I was a private in training, it was the most segregated, the most prejudice county maybe in the United States. The general was a Southerner and most of the officers were Southern. They handpicked them, especially for the Black troops. They put southerners, primarily 99% of the officers they selected for Black troops was Southern. With a quote, they understand Blacks better. But, at that moment, they were going to segregate them and mistreat them more. You see? And keep them discouraged. | 26:28 |
| Blair Murphy | They understood the oppression better. | 27:13 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | That was the situation. [indistinct 00:27:28], up in New York—That's on tape. Up in New York, there was a Black regiment, this was during World War I, a Black Regiment, 369th Regiment, when they called to duty, as a group, 3000 men, they were called, they were sent to a camp up in New York, and there were Black southern units sent up there from Alabama and Georgia. The White troops would, at night, shoot a Black troop and kill them. But the White commander of the Black troops said the Black troops got the word that, if you killed a Black troop tonight, the next night a White troop was killed. That was the tension. And it so happened that, because of that friction, the Black troops was sent to South Carolina or North Carolina to take the boat to Europe. And when they went to Europe, they were reduced to handling supplies. | 27:24 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And they told them, the soldiers said to them, we don't want to handle supplies, we want to be combat troops. We are trained to be combat—They put them in battle, in World War I, and kept them in battle longer than any other White unit in the war. More days they kept them. But they won more decorations and they were the first to get into Germany. They had no AWOLs, they had no rates or anything. They had a good record and they made an outstanding record. 369th of New York City. But that's an example of the tension. And- | 28:40 |
| Blair Murphy | How was being in Europe different than being in the United States? | 29:20 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Oh, yes. The civilian population was very friendly toward us. Very friendly. Not 100% but I'd say maybe 90% of the Germans were more friendly toward us and they talked to you as if they were talking to another European. You see? And, you see, when I went to Germany, there was no housing on the base for couples. American soldiers. I paid to have my wife come over there and a little girl that we kept and we stayed in a German home for 10 months awaiting availability of quarters on the base. And, of course, the German family treated us as another German family. You understand? They were very nice to us. | 29:25 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Now, let me give you an example of what happened in the Philippines. When I was in the Philippines, this is all about race, when I was in the Philippines, one night, I was reading a book and I heard shots. And, of course, they shot into the trees and it would ricochet down to the tents, where the Black troops were. And, of course, the other officers were out somewhere. I was the only one there that night. | 30:20 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And the White troops became upset because the bullets were coming down in their tent, from the tree ricochet, and they ran to the supply room and they broke open the door and they broke the weapons rack and got their weapons. But, fortunately, the supply sergeant was out, but he had hidden the ammunition. Luckily, they couldn't find the ammunition. They were running around there. I ran over to the supply room and asked them, I said, fellas, be calm. Be calm. They said, Lieutenant, they going to kill us. Lieutenant, they going to kill us. | 30:58 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | Of course, the firing had stopped. By that time, White MP was surrounding the base with Jeeps, with big lights, flashing lights, rolling, going around the base. Lights. And when I went to negotiate with the White lieutenant, the Black fellow said, oh, they're arresting our lieutenant. Let's get them. And I said, no, fella, they're just negotiating. You see? Oh, incidentally, in the supply room, I was asking them to be calm and they would but a big Black soldier, about six feet six, was strong and he picked up one or two of them and threw them out the supply room. Carrying out my orders. Then they became calmer because the firing had stopped. | 31:45 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And I explained the situation and they said we'll investigate tomorrow. See what happened. They had an investigation and they found out that some of the Black boys and White boys were dating the same girls and there was a friction, you see? What the commanders, the generals, did was to make all of our men, we had about 400 men getting ready to come back from the states in that area, they made us move, within two days, to another location, which was unkempt. See, the fellas had polished it, had painted it, that area, and they beautified it and everything. We had to move to a gasoline dump where it was unprotected, under polished and so forth. | 32:40 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And, of course, you see, it's quite a job. And, of course, I was the commander at that time. It's quite a job moving 400 unwilling men who were draftees at the end of the war. The war had ended. And, of course, they were relaxed. They were only concerned about getting back home to buy a car and to see their wives and their girlfriends. That was all they were concerned about. | 33:41 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | But they made us move. We had to move within that length of time, all the men, and that's the way the commanders would do. If the White soldiers did something to us, we were wrong, you see? And then we'd be punished. That's the way it worked, in cases. I met, for instance, a lieutenant who had participated in the riots. And, of course, after the riot, they put them temporarily in jail, then they let him out and they'd split them up. Send them all over to the United States to various camps. | 34:06 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | And, of course, this fellow was reduced to master sergeant. And when the Korean War started, see, he was the first lieutenant at the time of the riot, when the war started, they called him in as a first lieutenant. Since he was a fighter. Called him in as a first lieutenant and sent him to Korea. And then, after the Korean War, then he ended up as a master sergeant at Hampton University ROTC, as an instructor. You see, that's the way things worked during segregation. | 34:54 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | For instance, at Camp Lee, Virginia, the telephone operators, if they thought that your voice was Negro, she'd insult you. And if you walked down the street, the White soldiers could insult you. The White officers were obviously prejudice. They didn't hide it at all. Obvious discrimination and prejudice. They'd show it openly. Then, when you go to town, you're segregated and so forth. Personally, I stuck to what they call USO. Are you familiar with that? | 35:29 |
| Blair Murphy | Yes. | 36:12 |
| Jesse J. Johnson | USO. I didn't go to these private places because they were generally juke joints. I didn't care for them. I'd go to USO and the campus and libraries and so forth. But, anyway, because I was always looking forward to retiring. You see, some of the Black officers, all they wanted to do is stay in there until the end of the war and they'd do a lot of things against the regulation because they weren't concerned about a career. But I was looking forward to retiring and, by the hardest, I made it. And, as I said, now I'm working on videotapes. And that is, in summary, my life story. | 36:16 |
| Blair Murphy | That's nice. | 37:12 |
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