Peters, Rebecca Todd / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Well thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed.

0:04

Toddy, and if you could say your full name.

0:06

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Rebecca Todd Peters.

0:08

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Wonderful, and are you lay or clergy?

0:10

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I'm clergy, ordained Presbyterian Church USA.

0:12

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Thank you very much.

0:15

And when and where were you born?

0:16

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I was born in Tallahassee, Florida

0:18

on October 13th, 1967.

0:22

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Oh wonderful, and where did you go to school?

0:24

Graduate divinity school?

0:27

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I did my undergrad at Rhodes College

0:29

in Memphis, Tennessee and then I did all of my

0:31

graduate work at Union in New York.

0:33

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Okay, wonderful.

0:35

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So I did an indiv and then a PhD.

0:36

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Great.

0:38

What work or ministry where you doing

0:39

at the time of re-imagining?

0:41

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I was working at the national headquarters

0:43

of the Presbyterian Church USA

0:45

in the Women's Ministry Unit,

0:46

specifically in the justice for women section.

0:49

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Wonderful, and your title was?

0:52

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Program assistant.

0:54

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Great, okay wonderful.

0:55

And what work or ministry did you do after re-imagining?

0:57

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Now hold on, now that you asked me that,

1:02

I think I was actually, now I have to think about this.

1:06

I might have been in seminary and gone back to re-imagining.

1:10

So I was program assistant for two years.

1:14

Okay so I wasn't program assistant.

1:18

This is good that you asked me this.

1:21

I was program assistant for two years

1:23

and then I went to seminary at Union for a year,

1:25

and then I came back because I got engaged

1:29

and my husband was in Louisville.

1:31

So I worked full time at the center again

1:33

and I got intern credit through seminary

1:36

for my indiv program.

1:41

And that would've, because I got married

1:43

two or three weeks after re-imagining.

1:45

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Oh my goodness.

1:46

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So it wouldn't have been

that year that I was back doing that work,

1:47

so it wasn't the traditional

1:50

internships that were set up in the headquarters

1:58

which we had, I think, five of them at the time.

2:03

I'm gonna look at my CD again.

2:06

So while I was there, one of the projects I worked on

2:09

when I was in those first two years as a program assistant,

2:12

was to help start the National Network of Presbyterian

2:14

College Women.

2:17

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Oh yes.

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And so, I came back and I was staff person for that,

2:19

the year that re-imagining happened.

2:22

So I'm thinking, I hadn't actually realized that

2:25

but I'm thinking that's,

2:27

and I don't know if I had a, what my title would've been,

2:30

I think it was coordinator, National Network of Presbyterian

2:35

College Women.

2:38

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Okay, and you were just setting that up then?

2:39

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No, I set it up so

2:42

I was in the program assistant position from 90 to 92.

2:43

And I started the network, working closely with

2:49

Mary Ann Lundy during those two years.

2:52

Then while I was at seminary, I staffed it part-time

2:54

and then I went back and staffed at full-time for a year.

2:58

And then I think I staffed at part-time

3:03

for about two more years, through the end of my indiv,

3:07

and then we were moving toward a full-time,

3:09

it needed a full-time staff person and so we moved it.

3:14

We were able to start build the funding

3:17

and build the model to hire someone full-time.

3:19

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Oh okay, great.

3:22

And then your current position is?

3:23

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My current position is professor of religious studies

3:25

at Elon University.

3:28

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Wonderful.

3:29

Great, thank you.

3:30

And, when and how did you first learn about

3:32

feminist theology Toddy?

3:34

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In college, so I was in college at Rhodes College

3:37

from 85 to 89 and while I was in college we had

3:42

an initiative to try to get the college to start

3:51

a women's study program.

3:55

And so I was reading some feminist theory

3:58

in various classes in college,

4:02

in english classes, in history classes.

4:04

But I only had one religion class

4:08

and didn't have any feminist theology

4:11

or feminist theory of any sort in that class.

4:15

But I was reading on my own, and so I think

4:18

Rosemary Ruth or I think Mary, the Feminine Face of God,

4:22

was probably the first book I picked up and read.

4:25

And I probably found it in a used book store,

4:29

so there was no rhyme or reason as to why that book.

4:30

No one said well

4:34

you should read this.

4:34

(laughing)

I just picked it up and read it

4:36

and then began reading more on my own after that.

4:38

So that would have been in the late 80s

4:45

and graduated in 89 and went and worked in Italy for a year.

4:48

And while I was there I found out about,

4:55

or right before I left, I found out about these internships

4:57

in the headquarters in Louisville and applied for that job.

5:00

So you might like this story actually,

5:06

I was at Trianium and they have brochures

5:07

where they list all the young adult volunteer positions

5:10

and I had no idea what I wanted to do.

5:13

And so I was reading through this brochure

5:15

thinking oh well maybe something here will be of interest.

5:17

And there was this paragraph under the justice for women

5:19

office that said one person to work for the eradication

5:23

of sexism at all levels of the church.

5:26

And I was like oh God, I want to do that!

5:28

(laughing)

5:30

And it was the only year the ad ran that way.

5:32

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Really? Oh my goodness.

5:35

(laughing)

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But it was Paul. (laughing)

5:37

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Yes, wow, wow.

5:39

I have to ask, what were you doing in Italy?

5:43

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I worked at the Guggenheim,

5:45

the Peggy Guggenheim Art Collection.

5:46

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Yes!

5:48

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So in undergrad I was

actually an art history and a creative writing major.

5:49

So I thought I wanted to go into museum work,

5:53

and found out I didn't.

5:56

(laughing)

5:58

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I think going to Italy and finding that out

6:00

is a good way to do it.

6:02

(laughing)

6:03

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It was pretty good, it was a pretty good way to

6:03

figure that out.

6:06

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That is wonderful.

6:08

Well if we could talk about how your initial involvement

6:10

with re-imagining happened.

6:13

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So I was working in the office

6:16

from 90 to 92 and it was

6:19

an initiative that the Women's Ministry staff

6:23

was working on at the time.

6:26

So Mary Ann Lundy was the director of Women's Ministry.

6:28

And so I don't remember when in particular,

6:32

I just remembered it was one of the things that people

6:36

were working on at the time, in a sense that

6:37

I don't think staff time wasn't going toward planning it

6:41

but it was an event that was coming and we were

6:45

telling our constituencies about it.

6:48

We were building interest, we were trying to encourage

6:50

people to go attend and be part of it.

6:52

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Yeah, and do you remember anything about what you were

6:56

hearing about it at that point?

6:58

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They said it was really exciting.

7:00

Everybody in the Women's Ministry Unit

7:01

was very excited to have this international,

7:03

mostly national, but this big gathering where

7:08

many theologians and biblical scholars,

7:15

feminist would be brought together

7:17

really for the first time in any sort of

7:19

large scale way.

7:23

And so there was a lot of excitement about it.

7:25

People were really looking forward to it.

7:27

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And so you went in 93.

7:30

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I did, and I encouraged the college women to go.

7:32

So I can't remember, I could find out for you

7:36

if it was important but we got scholarships

7:38

for some of them.

7:42

I know Leticia Campbell was one of them.

7:44

If you're looking for someone to interview,

7:46

she would be a good person.

7:48

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Good.

7:49

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She's in a PhD program at

Emory now.

7:51

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Great, I'll get that later.

7:52

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So there were a handful of us who were

7:56

in our 20s who were part of the college women's network

7:59

who went and participated in the event.

8:02

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And what was it like?

8:06

What do you remember about that event?

8:07

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Well it's funny because I remember,

8:08

there wasn't anything that was said in a lecture

8:13

or a workshop that was new, because I had

8:16

read a lot of feminist theology.

8:19

So it wasn't, it was new to many people.

8:20

But for me, I was well read in feminist theology.

8:24

So it was exciting to meet the theologians

8:27

that I hadn't met and that part was fun.

8:31

But it wasn't sort of walking away feeling

8:35

like my life had changed.

8:37

The worship was very, very powerful,

8:39

and that was probably the most meaningful aspect

8:42

of the event for me because it was,

8:47

I had been part of feminist liturgy for many,

8:49

well for a number of years.

8:53

But not with a thousand women.

8:54

And so the scale of it was very, very powerful.

8:57

And just the care and attention that had been put

9:02

in creating the liturgy was so evident.

9:06

Everything about the conference was very, very carefully

9:10

and meticulously planned and thought about

9:15

and oriented toward feminist values and principles.

9:18

And so those pieces of it were what I really,

9:22

what really struck me more than the theology, the content,

9:24

was sort of the lived experience of sitting

9:29

in round tables and having art being created

9:31

while we were talking together and listening

9:35

and engaging in this sort of theological discourse

9:39

together and having so many sensory aspects

9:42

incorporated into that atmosphere.

9:46

I remember feeling like it was those aspect were

9:50

very different from your traditional conference.

9:53

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Yes, yeah, that's great.

9:56

Are there specific, you already mentioned several things,

10:00

are there any other specific moments that you remember?

10:02

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I remember the milk and honey ritual, and remember,

10:07

there's always this sort of

10:13

feeling of lost and sadness of not being able

10:16

to share communion, in a acumental space like that

10:19

and feeling empowered by the

10:22

liturgical team finding an alternative way

10:28

for us to share in a ritual that had meaning and value.

10:32

And particularly in feminist ways

10:38

in terms of thinking about the elements

10:41

and what was being shared and how they wove

10:44

that together into the worship service.

10:48

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Wonderful.

10:52

You know that there was a backlash after that.

10:54

First of all, were you personally affected by it?

10:57

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I think I was called out on one of the laymen articles.

11:00

I would have to go back and look, but I,

11:04

it was either there, I was called out in several

11:07

of the laymen during that time period

11:10

but I could have in the GA.

11:12

So I don't remember specifically.

11:14

And the way most of us,

11:16

it was sort of a vagabound or to be called out by the laymen

11:18

because they were so awful and it was sort of a sense of

11:22

well if they're worried about what you're doing

11:26

then you're probably doing something right.

11:29

Because my theological understanding of justice

11:31

and their understanding of what theology is period

11:35

is so amiss, that there is a sense of

11:37

everything about radical justice, about equality,

11:44

egalitarianism, you know, anti-racist, anything

11:48

that I would be supportive and be a part of,

11:53

challenges the status quo and challenges

11:56

the power that they have and how they want

12:01

the church to be and continue to be.

12:04

So I don't remember specifically if it was anything,

12:05

probably not, now that I think about it

12:10

because I had no role in the planning

12:12

or the leadership of it, so I think it would be surprising.

12:14

There were probably GA things I was called out for

12:20

and certainly the College Women's Network

12:23

was something that got called out

12:25

and I got criticized on that.

12:27

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What don't you say something about this?

12:29

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Sure!

12:30

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Because it seems to be

of a piece.

12:31

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Yes it is, absolutely of a piece.

12:32

So, and they were both funded by bicentennial money

12:34

which is also part of the origins of this so,

12:37

I remember when I started, this is a very clear memory.

12:40

In the first weeks or months I was there,

12:44

there was this great big old binder,

12:46

three ring binder that just was four inches thick

12:51

and just full and I just was looking through it

12:55

and there were all of these interesting projects

12:57

and it said bicentennial fund.

12:58

And I didn't know what a bicentennial fund was

13:00

and there were just all these really interesting things

13:03

and they were very diverse around all sorts of different

13:05

themes but the re-imagining was in there

13:07

and that's where I think

13:10

66,000 came from.

13:11

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Right, you got it.

-

And there were sort of a grouping of things that were

13:13

part of Women's Ministry that I, and I don't know how

13:15

process worked but I'm assuming each ministry unit

13:17

was asked to forward suggestions for fundraising

13:19

for the bicentennial fund.

13:23

And so one of them was this idea to do something

13:25

with college women specifically.

13:29

That Women's Ministry wanted to reach out

13:32

and do some sort of intentional ministry with college women,

13:33

and I had just graduated from college.

13:37

And I remember pulling the sheet out

13:38

and going into Mary Ann's office and saying

13:40

wait a minute this has been funded and no one is doing this?

13:43

(laughing)

13:47

Why is no one doing this?

(laughing)

13:49

And Mary Ann was like, you know, she was an administrator

13:51

and she was up to her ears in work, and she was like

13:55

oh well you should do that (laughs) if you're interested.

13:58

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Wow!

14:02

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So that really wasn't part of what my job was

14:05

in terms of I was brought in to work with Justice for Women,

14:07

which was the advocacy unit but everyone that I worked with

14:09

in my experience in that workspace,

14:14

was that it was a very feminist workspace

14:17

and people were very supportive and encouraging.

14:19

I'm sure there was politics that I wasn't privy to

14:22

as a 23 year old but my experience of it

14:24

was a very positive place.

14:28

My supervisor, who was Mary Kuehne's,

14:32

even though that took me away from the work

14:35

that I needed to be doing,

14:37

recognized that doing that, that I was a good person

14:38

to do that and that doing that was a value for me

14:41

in learning and supported me working with Mary Ann

14:43

on developing that project.

14:47

And so she and I worked together really for,

14:48

you know, ended up being probably five or six years

14:51

over the course of my participation with that.

14:56

Although Mary had probably gone by then.

14:59

But in building the groundwork and she had worked in

15:03

campus ministry in previous iterations of her career.

15:06

And so she had just wonder contacts

15:09

with campus ministry programs across the country.

15:13

And I could just remember sitting down with her

15:16

and we came up with a target list of chaplains

15:18

and asked them to send students to a conference.

15:22

It was all about networking, it was all about

15:26

how do you figure out who your allies are

15:29

and try to pitch something and see who comes

15:31

and then figure out what to do.

15:34

And so there was no agenda going into it

15:35

other than Women's Ministry wants to reach out

15:38

to college women.

15:41

And so we pulled together a group initially

15:42

and just brainstormed and talked about what do you want,

15:46

and what would be meaningful?

15:49

And really built it from there and

15:52

worked on laying out what the values were

15:56

that undiverted the development of the program

15:59

and feminism was at the top of the list.

16:02

The two I remember are feminism and evangelism

16:07

because those were the two we had the most discussion about.

16:10

And we didn't just put the values,

16:14

we defined what we meant by them.

16:16

Because what we meant by each of them

16:18

were very important to the women who are involved.

16:19

So all of that.

16:24

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Do you remember you defined,

I know it's been a long time.

16:26

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I haven't, I could get it to you.

16:27

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Yes, that would be great, sure.

16:29

-

But again, I remember the evangelism piece

16:31

was very controversial because there were a number

16:33

of women who didn't want to include evangelism

16:36

and a number who did and we talked a lot about

16:38

what we meant by evangelism and what does it mean to

16:43

share God's word and does that mean you're

16:46

trying to convert people or does that mean

16:49

that you're trying to witness through your life and actions.

16:51

So I just remember that every conversation we had

16:54

was in that sort of level of depth.

16:59

And these were not students who were

17:00

religious studies majors or had training.

17:01

They were just college women who were

17:05

interested in their faith and interested in justice,

17:10

and came together to talk about what does this mean for us.

17:12

And they were majors across the spectrum,

17:16

from biologists to socialogists to english and--

17:19

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That is great.

17:23

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Yeah, it was phenomenal.

17:24

-

About how large

a group was this?

17:25

-

So started out with a coordinating committee

17:26

I think of 12 people.

17:29

I think we had three years with four people each.

17:31

And we were trying to, in the very early stages,

17:34

we were very intentional about racial ethnic diversity

17:39

and making sure we had broad representation

17:41

on the coordinating committee.

17:44

And then we held events.

17:46

We held summer leadership events for college women

17:47

and sure anyone could come and we tried to recruit

17:50

through the, we had campuses who,

17:53

I forget if they signed on or if they were just part

17:59

of our networking, I can't remember how we organized it,

18:02

but we would have 30 to 40 in those early years

18:04

at the summer events.

18:08

I remember one of the first ones we went down to,

18:10

this was right around NAFTA, we went down to the border

18:14

and worked with Rick Everchase and the work they were

18:17

doing with Border Links, was one of our first summer events.

18:21

And they were always oriented around different

18:27

social justice issues and educating and participating in

18:29

advocacy as well as feminist theology and ethonist liturgy

18:32

and those sorts of things.

18:39

-

Wonderful.

18:40

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Yeah, so it really was

all of a piece.

18:42

-

It was.

-

I mean it was very much what was going on.

18:43

And the attack on the College Women's Network was

18:44

oriented in everyway from the same basis of

18:50

threat and fear that the reaction to

18:55

re-imagining was for sure.

18:59

-

I know about the backlash against re-imagining.

19:01

I know a little bit but could you say more about

19:03

what the backlash was toward the College Women's Network?

19:05

-

Yeah, some in fact, the are others who can give you

19:08

more detail on that.

19:13

Do you know Iylee Marloe?

19:15

-

Yeah, actually I just interviewed her.

19:16

So yeah.

19:18

-

We're having dinner together tonight.

19:19

-

That's wonderful, she mentioned that in fact.

19:20

-

So she would have been part of that.

19:22

Did she talk about it at all?

19:25

-

She did talk about it, yeah.

19:26

And that's mostly where I know it from.

19:28

-

I wasn't staff anymore and I feel very strongly,

19:29

I used to tell the women this when we were working together

19:35

that a good leader is not missed when she's gone.

19:37

It doesn't mean you don't miss her personally

19:43

but nothing changes in the flow of the organization

19:45

if you've built a good organization.

19:50

And I didn't want the new staff person to feel like

19:52

everybody was running back to me to solve the problems.

19:55

So I really stayed out of all that

19:58

but it was the GA a year or two after

20:00

I was not the staff person anymore,

20:04

that there were, I think it must have been a floor move

20:06

to try to cut the funding and eliminate the program.

20:09

And I've only heard, you know, second hand reports

20:13

from people who were there about that.

20:16

It would be good to find out from people.

20:18

-

She did talk about that.

20:19

It was very powerful.

20:21

-

It was apparently very ugly and very, very mean spirited.

20:22

In much the same way that the re-imagining was.

20:28

It was all of a piece.

20:32

-

Were you at the 94 GA where they talked about

20:35

re-imagining and had the report,

20:38

does any of that sound familiar?

20:40

-

I think I was, I don't remember it in particular.

20:42

I went to lots of GAs at that time.

20:46

-

I betcha did, I bet you did.

20:48

-

But I don't remember that in particular.

20:50

But did you want me to talk again about being in the center

20:53

in the days after?

20:56

-

Yes please, please.

-

So the reports started to come out in

20:58

the laymen and then the Methodist, the Good News

21:05

and at first I think, my memory of this is that

21:10

people at the center just sort of took it with

21:15

a grain of salt because this is what they do.

21:18

I think it was when the lay committee started,

21:21

I forget what the details were,

21:26

but I remember that there were letters that were sent

21:27

related to funding and it took a different tone

21:30

than much of their other just sort of general nastiness.

21:36

And I think that was when people started to get worried

21:39

about what the impact of this was going to be.

21:43

And I think, part of my memory was that

21:46

the staff women that I worked with,

21:52

and so there were staff women in Women's Ministry who went

21:53

but there were staff women from many other areas

21:56

who went just because they were feminist

21:58

and they wanted to be part of this.

22:01

And we all began to meet together weekly.

22:03

I sort of think we met over lunch.

22:07

Does anybody else talked about this?

22:09

-

I remember meeting.

22:10

I don't know if it was over lunch or not.

22:11

-

Okay, I can't remember but we were meeting regularly

22:12

and it was really as a support group than anything else.

22:15

As a young woman in her 20s, this wasn't my livelihood

22:21

in the same way it was for the women

22:26

who were in their 50s and 60s.

22:28

And I remember being just very aware

22:29

of how vulnerable they felt and how threatened,

22:33

and how deeply unsettling it was.

22:39

It was no fun for me but I wasn't

22:46

vulnerable in the same way they were

22:50

and that was very evident to me.

22:52

So we met regularly as a support group

22:57

and I think I also remember that many of the staff people

23:02

were deeply concerned about what was happening to

23:05

the woman participants from across the country

23:08

who had gone and had this amazing experience

23:11

and were now being told by people

23:14

that what they experienced was bad and heretical

23:16

and evil even.

23:21

Whereas when they were there in the moment

23:24

it was invigorating and liberating and exciting

23:27

and challenging in all these sorts of ways.

23:32

And I don't know if there's any way to ever know

23:35

the impact on that group of women

23:39

and how they navigated that.

23:41

My hope is that, and I know many of them did

23:45

because there were reports from Presbyteries,

23:48

from women who stood up and said I was there,

23:50

this is not what happened.

23:52

It was not God as worshiped.

23:54

But I do wonder how many of them were

23:58

able to reconcile that and to recognize and honor

24:01

the validity of their experience.

24:05

Given that the whole history of the patriarchal control

24:08

of the church is controlling how women

24:11

think about God and their faith.

24:14

And so that's always bothered me.

24:17

-

Yeah, yeah.

24:21

You mentioned the tone changed was different.

24:22

How would you describe the different in tone?

24:24

Was it threatening to withdraw funds, what was different?

24:26

-

Well you know, I mean,

24:30

the laymen was always full of attacks

24:33

of everything that was going on in the national church.

24:36

But never before had they followed that up

24:40

with issues of funding, and cutting funding

24:44

and really calling for people to be fired.

24:47

Calling for the kind of accountability

24:51

that they were asking for.

24:53

And I think because, and I don't know,

24:58

this is just speculation, but the sense is

25:01

because it was an independent organization

25:03

that had sponsored this outside of the authority

25:07

of the denomination.

25:10

I mean it wasn't outside because it was a collaboration

25:11

but it wasn't the National Council of Churches for instance.

25:14

There was no sort of authoritative body that was gonna

25:17

stand up and counter or correct or challenge

25:23

these interpretations.

25:30

There was no countervailing patriarchal presence.

25:32

There was just an organizing committee of a conference.

25:39

And I think, it would be interesting to interview

25:42

the people who were working at the lake maybe at the time,

25:47

find out their thinking was.

25:49

Maybe someone will do that someday but you know

25:51

it just sort of felt like they saw

25:55

a vulnerability and were able to exploit it.

25:58

Because they've been attacking Mary Ann for years

26:03

and they've been attacking other people and programs.

26:05

And certainly the Women's Ministry unit had already

26:09

been under attack but there was an elevation of that.

26:11

What year did Kuehne give her talk at the World Council?

26:16

-

It was right before that, it was 91 or 92.

26:20

-

So that was hugely controversial.

26:22

And again I think it's all part of something that was

26:26

happening there in the early 90s

26:30

as feminist theology was gaining a voice

26:32

of a more public presence.

26:36

In a sense they were right,

26:41

feminist theology is very threatening

26:44

to the traditional church but that doesn't make it

26:46

unchristian and it doesn't make it heretical.

26:50

But it was definitely threatening their,

26:53

their authority.

26:57

-

Mm hmm, mm hmm.

26:58

That is really helpful.

27:00

You also spoke at the 2009 meeting

27:03

and could you say something about that?

27:07

-

Sure, so that would have been,

27:12

was that the 15 year, let's see.

27:15

I feel like it was an anniversary year.

27:21

Let's see 93.

27:24

Six, seven, eight, nine.

27:28

-

Well I would have been.

27:30

-

Not quite, 16 years.

-

Yeah, yeah.

27:31

-

Well Mary Ann called and asked me

27:34

if I would do this and indicated that,

27:35

and I didn't really follow much of what happened

27:40

with the re-imagining community after the fact.

27:42

I was in graduate school and newly married and young

27:47

and not anywhere near the Twin Cities.

27:50

But she said that the planning committee really wanted

27:56

to have sort of a younger theologian talk about

27:59

what's the future of feminism.

28:05

I think there were,

28:06

my sense from Mary Ann and the planning committee was

28:08

there're a lot of older women, middle-aged and older women,

28:12

who were very concerned about the future of feminism

28:18

and about young women and how much young women

28:21

are interested and or care about feminism.

28:26

And so they wanted me to come and talk about that.

28:28

And I did, it was a good experience.

28:32

It was very much like by experience

28:34

speaking to a lot of churches which is,

28:36

there aren't very many young women ever.

28:39

No matter where I go or where I speak, there aren't many.

28:41

Then I'm increasingly less be-agra-ful.

28:46

(laughing)

28:48

You know and it's funny because one of my best friends

28:51

was on the World Council of Churches' Central Committee

28:53

when she was a youth.

28:57

And so again, very, very committed and involved

28:58

and she and I talk about how hard it is to get up

29:01

on Sunday morning and take our kids to church and go

29:04

and how different life is.

29:07

And so I don't necessarily think,

29:10

well I certainly don't think

29:12

young women aren't interested in feminism,

29:13

that's a different issue but I think it relates

29:15

to this issue about where are young people,

29:17

20 somethings, Millennials in church, 30 somethings even,

29:20

and why are they not in church?

29:24

Or what does that mean?

29:26

Or what is faith and life look like in the 21st century?

29:27

Certainly doesn't look like what it did mid-20th century,

29:33

which is what I think our model is, right?

29:35

This is 1950s church and this is post-war,

29:37

this is what we should be.

29:42

This is the idyllic community and it's a mirage.

29:43

It's not, and I'm not even sure,

29:48

maybe for some short, brief period there that was true,

29:50

but we still hold up, hold ourselves accountable to that

29:54

or maybe not accountable but intention with that

29:59

as if that's our aspirant model of the church.

30:02

-

Now I know this is a huge question, I'll throw it at you.

30:05

You could say whatever you want, or not,

30:08

but why do you think young people aren't

30:09

attending church these days?

30:12

-

(exhales sharply) I mean I think it's a lot of things.

30:14

I read a study recently, just last week even,

30:17

that was talking about how

30:20

when they ask people, people who actually consider

30:24

themselves active in a church,

30:27

how often they go to church, it's like once every six weeks.

30:29

I mean that's part of what I mean about,

30:33

but they themselves consider themselves

30:36

to be active members of that church.

30:38

Although those who are in my mom's generation.

30:40

(laughing)

30:44

But I just think life is so,

30:48

I mean, I have two kids.

30:51

I have a 16 year old and a 10 year old

30:52

and my husband and I work full-time

30:54

in professionally demanding jobs,

30:57

and we're just exhausted.

31:00

And I think that's true for any parents

31:04

who are working full-time.

31:07

You don't have to be in, you know,

31:07

a physician and a PhD for your life to be demanding,

31:11

psychologically and physically.

31:15

I just think it's a different

31:17

era in terms of the kind of

31:20

work that people are doing.

31:27

Women, but men also, I think part of

31:30

the neoliberalization of our economy has meant

31:32

that people work more hours now than they did.

31:35

And so everybody's working more

31:37

and there's just less time, period.

31:39

And there's, especially with the middle class

31:42

or upper-middle class, this sort of

31:44

attention to making sure that you're giving your kids

31:46

all these benefits and doing all these things

31:50

and I don't so that, I've rejected that,

31:52

but I see lots of my friends who are overwhelmed by that.

31:55

So I think that's part of it, I think our lifestyle

32:03

is part of it.

32:05

But I think the other pieces are cultural shift.

32:07

There are two wings to a cultural shift,

32:11

I think one of them is this sort of

32:12

cocooning that we're involved in,

32:15

where we really only want to be around people

32:17

who think like we do.

32:20

And so I'll admit to this too,

32:21

I have a hard time going to a church

32:24

where they don't use inclusive language.

32:27

I just don't want to be there, period.

32:29

But to find those churches in Greensboro, North Carolina

32:32

there, it's hard.

32:36

And even the churches where the ministers don't use it,

32:38

they don't make sure that the hems are inclusive, right?

32:41

So it's a step to have the ministers

32:47

not using exclusive language but if they don't

32:49

really believe that it's important enough

32:52

to make sure that your music doesn't also,

32:54

I don't want my kids being shaped by that.

32:59

Or I have to figure out ways of mediating that.

33:03

So I think that's a piece of it, the sort of cocooning

33:06

and where do go even, how find places.

33:09

But then I also just think that our,

33:13

yeah, I don't know, worship is,

33:16

I'm not sure it meets people's spiritual needs.

33:21

And I think that the sort of

33:24

contemporary worship service with the band

33:28

isn't that much better. (laughs)

33:31

I don't think that's the solution either.

33:34

And again, I think we have,

33:37

we inherited these models of worship

33:41

from centuries of Christian tradition.

33:44

But they haven't changed much in hundreds of years,

33:46

they've shifted some here and there.

33:51

There's openness and there's certainly more

33:53

contemporary hymns and music.

33:56

But don't think it's just sort of updating the same liturgy.

33:58

So I think most people that I know,

34:07

like some sense of tradition on occasion.

34:12

I think wonder maybe that's why they're only

34:15

going once every six weeks, you know.

34:17

There are lots of different worship forms

34:23

that appeal to different people

34:25

but I think what people are searching for,

34:27

and I see this some in the data that I read about.

34:31

What does it mean when you say you're spiritual

34:34

but not religious?

34:36

Is it people are rejecting institutions?

34:38

And institutions they perceive to be hypocritical?

34:40

For social reason, right around homosexuality

34:43

and abortion and other things,

34:46

but even more than that, around what they're doing

34:47

with their money.

34:51

And how much of the money is going into replicating

34:53

themselves rather than the community in which

34:58

the building is which is falling apart.

35:05

-

Right, right, yes.

35:07

-

So I think there's a crisis in that piece,

35:12

in the disconnect in around that hypocrisy, right,

35:18

so I think it's two fold.

35:20

I think it's economic but I think it's social,

35:21

in terms of the rejection of the institution.

35:24

But I think this is one of the biggest opportunities

35:32

of the 21st century is to try to figure out

35:36

what does this mean to be spiritual but not religious?

35:38

I think the increase in our country in particular

35:41

but it's happening in a lot of cities

35:44

in the countries around the world

35:46

of increased immigration and interfaith realities

35:47

means that many people are asking,

35:54

it's not necessarily that they're asking the questions

35:58

but they're asking, they're thinking differently

36:00

about old question.

36:02

Alright so there's always been encounter between

36:04

Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhist

36:06

and Sikhs and Hindus but I think there's less

36:09

of this sort of modernist sense of Christianity

36:15

as the truth with a capital T.

36:21

Certainly for evangelicals that's still the case.

36:23

But I think what we're seeing with these Millennials

36:26

and these folks who are spiritual but not religious,

36:29

even if they grew up evangelical is a rejection of that

36:32

truth with a capital T and in openness to thinking about

36:34

I don't know what it means to be spiritual.

36:38

But I know that I think there's something more than me

36:40

but I don't know how to name it and how you've named it,

36:44

doesn't work for me anymore.

36:48

And so I think there needs to be some new way of,

36:50

this is probably not even what you want me to be talking.

36:53

(laughing)

36:55

-

Actually well one of

the questions is what is re-imagining mean today?

36:57

You're answering that question.

36:59

Thank you, beautifully.

37:00

-

I'm sorry, I didn't

want to take you off.

37:01

-

No, no, no.

This is exactly, you're answering that question,

37:03

that's perfect.

37:05

-

I do, I think,

37:06

yeah, I think there is a crisis in the 21st century

37:10

and you know, it's not the crisis of the church.

37:15

I have said since I was first working at the church

37:17

in my early 20s that my generation is,

37:21

I sort of feel like the ones who are

37:25

mid-wives to something new.

37:28

We were not enough a part of the church

37:32

when it had all the resources and power

37:35

to know what that feels like.

37:37

The church has been falling apart

37:40

since I was old enough to know what the church was.

37:42

In terms of loosing members in crisis

37:46

and sort of it's been that Chicken Little

37:48

my whole adult life.

37:52

To such an extent that I don't care.

37:55

I don't care, I mean it makes me sad.

37:58

I'm not against tradition, I think tradition

38:02

has a lot of meaning and value.

38:04

I don't mean it in a flip way.

38:06

I sit on the Faith and Order Commission

38:09

of the World Council of Churches

38:11

and representing the Presbyterian Church

38:12

and when my Ecumenical Officer called,

38:15

I should think about whether I want this to be public.

38:20

(laughing)

38:22

-

Yeah, yeah don't put it on

if you don't, let's maybe we don't want to do that.

38:23

-

So like I would just say that I'm deeply committed to

38:25

Ecumenism and to tradition.

38:30

But I'm also, I'm mean I think this is

38:34

what feminist theology has taught me is that

38:37

even though I'm deeply formed and committed to them

38:40

I'm not beholden to them.

38:43

And I'm informed by them and I value them

38:48

but I'm more interested in the world in crisis before me

38:52

and trying to figure out how to address

38:58

whatever those crisis are.

39:02

For me it's the economic and climate crisis

39:03

and what does it mean to be the church in the midst of that?

39:11

And what does it mean to be Christian in the midst of that?

39:14

And I think that there is very little that I find

39:16

in traditional theology that helps me

39:20

answer those questions in all that I find that gives me

39:21

hope and inspiration and vision for what that looks like,

39:27

comes from the margins.

39:32

Comes from theologians in the developing world,

39:36

the global south.

39:38

It comes from feminism, womanist

39:39

and other critical woman's theologies

39:44

that are asking these questions in context

39:47

that are very different from the first world.

39:51

And doing that as faithfully as the church fathers did

39:55

and yet with very little recognition of that faithfulness

39:59

and I think that's what bothers me the most about feminist,

40:04

about the backlash against feminist theology

40:08

and about what happened with re-imagining

40:10

is the way in which something that I feel like

40:12

was gaining some public status and exposure.

40:16

Was again, just sort of squashed by the powers

40:22

of the patriarchy and misogyny.

40:25

-

And you've mentioned in Greensboro you can't find

40:28

much inclusive language, what is your sense of

40:30

the introduction of inclusive language

40:35

and feminist theology into churches in general?

40:37

-

I think it's gone.

40:41

I think it was a moment in seminaries with

40:42

the advent and recognition, maybe recognition,

40:48

maybe just pressure, in the 70s and 80s

40:53

for seminaries to take this seriously

40:56

and for, maybe a little bit into the 90s

40:59

but I think already in the 90s it was starting

41:02

to get pushed back from students and other faculty.

41:04

But I think there was a moment where,

41:09

well maybe I shouldn't say that.

41:16

It feels like maybe there was a moment where people

41:16

thought that this was important

41:18

and the changes were made because people believed

41:20

this was important theologically.

41:23

Maybe that's my

41:26

optimism,

41:31

because I don't know politically how that happened

41:32

in different seminaries.

41:34

But I do know the impact on the church was broader.

41:35

When seminarians were being taught about

41:38

not just you need to use inclusive language

41:43

but here's why.

41:46

I think that's what when I talk to,

41:49

and mostly I talk to young women pastors

41:52

who come out of seminary, there's a clergy group of women

41:55

in Greensboro that I meet with for a number of years

41:58

and they use inclusive language but they're not

42:00

gonna make a big deal about it in their churches

42:05

and they're not gonna make other people use it

42:07

or they're not gonna try to fight their senior pastor

42:10

to get him to use it or to get the music director to change.

42:12

They understand on some level at least that it's important

42:17

but it's not important enough to fight for.

42:22

And I think in the 70s and 80s and 90s it was.

42:30

And not just women seminarians, I think it was men too,

42:35

at least some of them.

42:38

So, I think, I forgot what your question was. (laughs)

42:39

-

Though you were answering it, about the status

42:44

of inclusive language and feminist theology

42:46

in churches now.

42:47

Well this is a big question but do you think that the,

42:48

just to make sure I'm clear about what you're saying here,

42:52

how significant was the backlash against re-imagining

42:56

in doing that or was it more a symptom of what was

42:58

happening more broadly?

43:01

-

That's an excellent question

and I don't know if I know.

43:03

My hunch would be that the backlash

43:09

and the success of the backlash gave credibility to people

43:12

who didn't want inclusive language already,

43:15

and it gave them cover for rejecting it.

43:19

So I don't know how that then played out

43:25

on seminary campuses, what the politics would've been.

43:27

I remember when I was in seminary in the 90s

43:33

getting a paperback where I'd use Chi for God intentionally

43:36

because I was writing a paper about the feminine

43:40

aspects of God and having it all marked up

43:43

and the person, the TA at the bottom said,

43:46

"I understand everything you're saying and I'm fine

43:48

"with you doing this but it's against the policy."

43:51

Because the policy is to not use standard language for God.

43:53

(laughing)

43:56

-

Really?

-

Yes.

43:57

You only get something like that at Union.

43:59

(laughing)

44:00

But people were taking it much more seriously, I think.

44:03

(chuckling)

44:09

But yeah, I don't know if,

44:11

I guess I think my hunch is probably it gave cover

44:20

to people who were already against it.

44:22

And it allowed them to push back

44:25

in that sort of politically correct kind of way.

44:29

Which is a horrible contested way to think about it.

44:33

But it gave them political cover.

44:37

-

That's really helpful.

44:43

So in the end, how would you define re-imagining?

44:45

-

I think re-imagining was an extraordinarily

44:49

important event in the life of

44:52

particularly the Protestant Christian community in the US

44:57

to bring critical women's theologies

45:02

to the forefront of the public.

45:04

-

Mm hmm, excellent.

45:07

-

Yeah, that's how I would define it

45:10

and it think the backlash showed. (laughing)

45:12

What the response to the public was

45:15

to those critical women's voices.

45:18

-

Yeah, yeah.

45:20

What aspects of re-imagining, you've talked about

45:23

something things that are really important to you

45:26

but in the end, what aspects of re-imagining

45:27

were most significant to you and why?

45:29

-

So from however many years later,

45:36

20 something years later, I think the answer

45:39

would be different than it would've been a month

45:42

after the event, right?

45:44

So now I would say, I think the most important

45:46

aspects of it are the very public nature of the event

45:50

and of bringing women's theological voices

45:56

empower to the fore of the church.

46:04

I know lots of young women leaders in the church who

46:11

have been shaped and informed

46:17

by the College Women's Network and by experiences,

46:20

exposure to feminist theology,

46:25

even if they weren't at re-imagining.

46:26

It was a cultural event.

46:32

So it was important on several levels,

46:39

it was important to the people who were there in the moment,

46:42

but I think it was important for many others,

46:47

sort of the ripple effects of recognizing not only

46:57

what happens when, sort of the power of being able

47:06

to gather lay women outside of the authority

47:09

of their churches and share theology with them

47:14

in different ways but also recognizing the power of

47:17

the institutions to reign that back in.

47:23

Which again I think is part of the problem

47:28

with the institutions but the institutions

47:30

have changed in the 20 something years since then too.

47:33

I not sure how much power most

47:37

of those denominations have anymore.

47:38

The staffs have been cut extraordinarily.

47:41

Any attention to women's issues and feminist theology

47:46

has almost been eviscerated.

47:51

I think the Methodist still and maybe the Episcopalians

47:55

do a little bit better than some of the rest of us but.

47:59

What denomination are you?

48:02

-

Methodist, and yes I think the women's division

48:03

is still doing pretty well, yeah.

48:05

-

But for many of the other denominations,

48:06

race and gender were just wiped off the slate

48:11

when budget cuts came.

48:14

And I think again, it's been to the detriment of

48:21

the larger church.

48:27

-

Yeah.

48:31

-

Yeah.

That is really helpful.

48:33

Did your involvement in re-imagining,

48:36

you mentioned that you already knew a lot of this

48:38

about feminist theology, it really didn't change

48:40

your perspective on that.

48:42

Did it change your perspective on the church at all?

48:43

-

No, I had seen a lot of,

48:46

I had seen enough of, working at the national office

48:51

for, by that point, 2 1/2 years, enough of the nastiness

48:55

from the right to recognize

49:01

their power and mostly their power of misdirection

49:06

and misinformation and fear mongering.

49:12

And recognizing sort of how bad that was.

49:17

I would say that I pretty much knew growing up as a PK

49:19

that I really didn't want to pastor a local church.

49:25

And after watching that, I knew pretty clearly

49:28

I didn't want to work in the national office.

49:30

I didn't want my livelihood to be tied up in

49:33

the vagaries of power,

49:37

that were very clearly dominating

49:41

in the 90s in that institutional setting.

49:45

Which is one of the reasons that I went into acting, yeah.

49:48

I knew from those early days that

49:53

I was committed to justice, I was committed to feminism,

49:56

I was committed to the church.

49:58

But I wasn't gonna be able to pursue those callings

50:01

in any institutional setting

50:05

where the church had power over me.

50:08

And so the academy became a place,

50:10

not a safe place but just a place

50:15

where I could do those things that I was called to do

50:16

in ways that I felt had more freedom

50:19

and support to do that.

50:23

-

Exactly.

50:26

I have one last very specific question,

50:28

this has been wonderful.

50:30

We're developing a re-imagining website

50:32

and I'm wondering if you have ideas.

50:34

A lot of it is going to be historical,

50:36

putting the conferences on there, that kinda thing.

50:39

But also--

50:42

-

Oh you're gonna have,

can you click and listen to the speeches.

50:43

-

Mm hmm.

50:45

-

Wow.

-

That's what we're working on.

50:46

-

That's amazing.

50:47

-

Yup, it should be ready

by the end of the summer.

50:48

-

Are the Q and As, were they taped?

50:49

-

Ah no, they were not.

50:50

(sighs)

Yeah, which is unfortunate.

50:53

-

I remember being in Dolores'.

50:55

Were you there?

50:58

-

Ah no.

50:59

-

When that happened?

That's another one of those memories from that event.

51:01

Remembering or saying that and thinking,

51:04

wow!

51:07

-

Say some more, wow meaning?

51:09

-

I can remember, I don't remember what the question

51:12

she was asked, but I remember she said sort of in an

51:14

off hand way, "Ah, we don't need bodies hanging from

51:16

"crosses and bloody."

51:20

And I was just like, yes!

51:21

'Cause that's what I believed in, it was just so great.

51:23

I remember just thinking it was so great to have,

51:25

a womanist theologian, to have prominent theologians

51:29

saying what I believed.

51:33

-

And of course you know that was

51:35

one of the--

51:37

-

I know, I know!

-

Mm hmm, yes exactly.

51:38

(laughing)

Yes, yeah, yeah.

51:41

But what else would be,

51:43

I think a lot of it's also gonna be about networking,

51:44

providing support resources.

51:46

Do you have ideas about who would benefit from it,

51:48

what should be included?

51:50

Any ideas you have.

51:52

-

I think that,

51:53

I mean certainly that would be a great research resource.

51:56

I think it would also nice if you had some portal

52:00

or way for it to also help support

52:02

women who wanted to be

52:05

active practitioners or,

52:08

I mean he whole women church movement

52:14

is sort of dead too but

52:15

I don't know, books to study together

52:19

with study questions, links to water, you know water.

52:21

(words drowning out by speaker)

52:25

Feminist rituals, suggestions for,

52:28

I mean, I think increasingly I'm aware of how

52:31

isolated people feel, particularly women

52:37

who might not feel exactly the same way

52:42

as everybody else they know feels.

52:44

And really just simple steps about

52:46

what to do to get connected and how you find someone

52:49

and how you might start book group or

52:51

find like minded souls to talk to.

52:55

I just think people need help.

52:59

Especially if they're in a church

53:02

where their pastor's not gonna be any help.

53:03

-

One of the things re-imagining did when it was

53:08

in existence was form small groups across the county.

53:09

Just help people do that.

53:12

So it sounds like that might be one of those.

53:14

-

Yeah, I think that's enormously helpful.

53:15

-

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

53:16

-

I do, yeah.

-

That's great.

53:19

Is there anything you want to add

53:20

that we haven't talked about?

53:22

-

Hmm.

53:24

I think the other thing that might be interesting

53:30

and you may be looking for this,

53:32

is what the impact was on women pastors.

53:33

-

Please, talk about it.

53:36

-

I mean I just know

53:37

how much the model of pastor

53:41

came out of the same model

53:47

that all our profession did, right?

53:50

An independent male who had a family to support him.

53:53

I see colleagues who take one of two tracks.

53:59

One is I really want to be a senior pastor

54:03

but then they have to

54:07

conform themselves to a model of the male pastor

54:10

to be a senior pastor.

54:14

Or rejecting.

54:16

Women who have wonderful gifts and skills

54:18

who simply say I will never do that

54:20

because I don't wanna have to do

54:22

what it takes to do that, right?

54:23

-

Right.

54:25

-

I don't know, I just think that's,

54:30

I think women pastors are

54:31

implicated or

54:35

impacted by this in some way that

54:37

we haven't articulated yet.

54:42

I don't know how many women pastors were there.

54:46

That would be interesting if we knew

54:48

the breakdown of lay and clergy.

54:50

-

We do, it was 1/3 clergy.

54:52

-

Okay.

54:54

Are you interferencing some of?

54:57

-

Yes.

54:59

-

Yeah.

I would love to know what you find

55:00

related to women clergy about how they think

55:03

re-imagining impacted

55:06

professional ministry.

55:10

-

Yes, yeah.

55:11

-

In any ways.

55:13

Yeah.

55:18

Yeah.

55:20

That's, I don't know.

55:21

I guess that's about it.

55:22

-

That's wonderful.

55:23

Let me turn off the recording here.

55:24

Peters, Rebecca Todd

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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