Kurnaz, Murat - Interview master file
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
- | I know this. | 0:05 |
Interviewer | Okay. | 0:08 |
(clears throat) | 0:09 | |
Good afternoon. | 0:10 | |
- | I don't know what you say if you say good afternoon. | 0:12 |
Interviewer | Okay, nothing, nothing, its okay | 0:13 |
We are grateful to you for participating | 0:17 | |
in the Witness to Guantanamo Project. | 0:20 | |
We invite you to speak of your experiences | 0:23 | |
at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. | 0:26 | |
And we are hoping to collect your story | 0:28 | |
and the story of other men who have been in Guantanamo. | 0:31 | |
And we are hoping to create an archive of the stories | 0:35 | |
so that people in America and in the world | 0:40 | |
will have a better understanding | 0:44 | |
of what you and others is having endured. | 0:45 | |
Future generations must know what happened. | 0:49 | |
And by telling you a story you're contributing to history. | 0:52 | |
We appreciate your courage and willingness | 0:56 | |
to speak to us today. | 0:58 | |
And at any time, if you'd like to stop and take a break, | 1:01 | |
just let us know and we'll stop. | 1:04 | |
And if any time you wanna after you say something, | 1:06 | |
you wanna remove it, just tell us and we'll we move. | 1:09 | |
- | Okay. | 1:12 |
Interviewer | And I'd like to begin with just some | 1:14 |
basic information about who you are | 1:16 | |
and a little background such as your name. | 1:19 | |
- | You want me to say my name? | 1:24 |
Interviewer | Sure, yeah. | 1:26 |
- | Okay, yeah my name is Murat Kurnaz. | 1:27 |
Interviewer | And the country of origin, | 1:29 |
where you were born. | 1:33 | |
- | I am born and raised here in Germany. | 1:34 |
Interviewer | And your hometown? | 1:38 |
- | Bremen. | 1:40 |
Interviewer | Okay and your birthdate? | 1:42 |
- | March 19. | 1:45 |
Interviewer | Of what year? | 1:48 |
- | '82. | 1:49 |
Interviewer | And your age? | 1:51 |
- | I'm now 27 years old. | 1:52 |
Interviewer | And your nationality? | 1:55 |
- | I got the Turkish nationality because of my parents. | 1:56 |
That is the law here in Germany like that. | 2:00 | |
Even I born here in Germany, lived in Germany all my life, | 2:03 | |
I got the Turkish citizenship because of my parents. | 2:06 | |
Interviewer | Do you have a German passport | 2:10 |
or a Turkish passport? | 2:12 | |
- | I have the Turkish passport. | 2:13 |
Interviewer | And what languages do you speak? | 2:15 |
- | I speak a German, Turkish, Uzbekish, Arabic | 2:18 |
and a bit Farsi. | 2:26 | |
Interviewer | And your religion. | 2:29 |
- | I'm a Muslim. | 2:31 |
Interviewer | And your marital status, are you married? | 2:33 |
- | Yes I got married before a couple of months ago. | 2:36 |
Interviewer | And your education where you, | 2:41 |
you were in school until what age? | 2:46 | |
- | I studied, I did. | 2:50 |
How you say again. | 2:55 | |
Interviewer | Oh, apprentice. | 2:57 |
- | I did apprentice as a construction mechanic | 2:59 |
and in construction mechanic as a chip builder. | 3:04 | |
Interviewer | As a ship builder? | 3:08 |
- | As a ship builder. | 3:09 |
And I did that job for like three years after school. | 3:10 | |
Interviewer | And before you went to Guantanamo, | 3:17 |
you lived in Bremen? | 3:19 | |
- | Yes, I lived always in Bremen. | 3:20 |
Interviewer | And do you know when you first arrived | 3:23 |
in Guantanamo and when you left Guantanamo? | 3:25 | |
(clears throat) | 3:29 | |
- | First I arrive to Guantanamo it was March, 2002. | 3:30 |
And I left Guantanamo end of 2006. | 3:36 | |
Interviewer | So we'd like to begin by asking you | 3:43 |
to describe how it was when you were first arrested | 3:46 | |
up to the time you went to Guantanamo, that period. | 3:50 | |
- | I have like two days ago, stab my eye | 3:57 |
I don't know how you call it in English its just... | 4:01 | |
Interviewer | Irritating? | 4:07 |
- | Yeah, it's removes itself a little bit, | 4:08 |
I don't know how two days I have a problem. | 4:10 | |
Interviewer | Do you need a napkin or some water for it? | 4:12 |
- | No, it does not help. | 4:16 |
I have two days ago it start just, | 4:17 | |
but I don't know if you can see that on the camera. | 4:19 | |
Interviewer | On the camera? | 4:22 |
I don't know, I don't have a problem just... | 4:23 | |
Interviewer | Okay, I don't think so you have a problem. | 4:25 |
Camerawoman | I didn't notice it, | 4:28 |
I've had that too, twitch. | 4:29 | |
- | Yeah, it happens sometimes. | 4:31 |
Interviewer | So if you could tell us | 4:35 |
when you were first arrested, how that was | 4:37 | |
and then up to the time before you went to Guantanamo. | 4:41 | |
(clears throat) | 4:45 | |
- | Before I arrived in Guantanamo, | 4:47 |
I'd been in an American Air Force Base in Kandahar | 4:49 | |
for three months. | 4:54 | |
And I got captured in Pakistan and turned over | 4:56 | |
to the US Army and it was from bounty | 5:01 | |
of 3,000 dollars, they sold me. | 5:09 | |
Interviewer | How do you know that? | 5:13 |
- | At first I didn't know about it. | 5:14 |
I just heard from a couple of prisoners | 5:16 | |
that there was a bounty, there was many prisoners. | 5:17 | |
They came after to that camp like six months later, | 5:22 | |
one year later and they saw flyers | 5:26 | |
what the US Army they dropped by a plane. | 5:31 | |
So by helicopters and there was written on it that | 5:38 | |
anybody got turned over to Americans, | 5:44 | |
that those people who is giving them up, | 5:48 | |
they will get 3,000 dollars bounty. | 5:51 | |
They did the same thing in Pakistan. | 5:56 | |
And in Pakistan, 3,000 dollars it's a lot of money for them. | 5:59 | |
So they start to collect all homeless people and children | 6:03 | |
because it was easy money for them. | 6:10 | |
And especially, especially foreigners, no Pakistanis | 6:13 | |
was easy made money because there is no family | 6:17 | |
members asking for them. | 6:20 | |
And I was just one of them. | 6:21 | |
95% of the prisoners in Guantanamo | 6:25 | |
got turned over to Americans by bounty. | 6:29 | |
That is official number | 6:34 | |
of those people got sold by a bounty. | 6:37 | |
And this is the official number | 6:41 | |
what I got told by Amnesty International, | 6:44 | |
they are working very close together with couple | 6:47 | |
of military people, ex military people | 6:50 | |
who is working today with Amnesty together. | 6:57 | |
Interviewer | And could you describe, | 7:00 |
was it the Pakistanis who sold you to the Americans, | 7:03 | |
did the Pakistanis hold you for any length of time | 7:06 | |
or did they turn you over right away? | 7:08 | |
- | They kept me for a while, they interrogate me of a while | 7:12 |
and after they were sure that I'm British or American | 7:16 | |
and I'm not a journalist after then they decide | 7:23 | |
to give me to the Americans. | 7:28 | |
Interviewer | Did any Americans interrogate you while | 7:30 |
the Pakistanis were holding you? | 7:33 | |
- | Yes, they did. | 7:34 |
Interviewer | Could you describe that? | 7:35 |
- | At first my first interrogation by Americans | 7:38 |
and it was in Pakistan and before they moved me from my cell | 7:42 | |
they close my eyes. | 7:49 | |
I couldn't see much of where we are moving | 7:51 | |
but it was very close to the police station where | 7:53 | |
they kept me in Peshawar . | 7:58 | |
Interviewer | And do they mistreat you | 8:01 |
while they were there? | 8:03 | |
And could you describe the interrogation. | 8:03 | |
- | They didn't mistreat me, no, | 8:07 |
but they asked them their first question was, | 8:10 | |
do you know where is Osama bin Laden? | 8:16 | |
And it was a strange question so I said, "I live in Germany | 8:19 | |
"I don't know where he is." | 8:25 | |
And they said, "Did you saw him?" | 8:27 | |
I said, "Of course I saw," and they wanted to know | 8:31 | |
where I saw him, I said, "I saw him like everybody else | 8:35 | |
"on newspapers and TV on the news." | 8:38 | |
and they saw that I should know where he is. | 8:41 | |
I don't know why but I couldn't have them much. | 8:46 | |
So they gave me a number it should be my eyes. | 8:49 | |
A number for the future | 8:53 | |
(clears throat) | 8:57 | |
and I'm like two or three weeks later | 8:57 | |
they picked me up and brought me over | 9:01 | |
to an American base in Kandahar. | 9:04 | |
Interviewer | And could you describe what happened | 9:06 |
then when you arrived in Kandahar? | 9:08 | |
(clear throat) | 9:11 | |
- | When I arrived in Kandahar there was everything | 9:12 |
on the beginning in Kandahar. | 9:17 | |
It was, everything was very new. | 9:20 | |
Even the soldiers over there didn't know how to do, | 9:21 | |
how to work with us. | 9:25 | |
Because I have to say that I was, I had the number 53 | 9:28 | |
and that's me now and I was one of the first people | 9:36 | |
got handed over to Americans. | 9:42 | |
And I was just the second group inside 12 hours | 9:44 | |
who arrived, Kandahar and expect us nobody was over there. | 9:49 | |
(clear throat) | 9:55 | |
We were just little bit over 50. | 9:56 | |
And the camp wasn't finished there were still building it. | 9:57 | |
And everywhere in bulldozer was working | 10:03 | |
and there was just a razor wire, | 10:07 | |
the military razor wire. | 10:13 | |
They kept us behind the razor wire | 10:17 | |
and there were soldiers with guns | 10:18 | |
they told us if you move we will shoot you. | 10:20 | |
And there was nothing else just an outside | 10:22 | |
behind the razor wire no toilets, nothing. | 10:29 | |
Interviewer | Were you kept by yourself | 10:32 |
or were you in tent with other people? | 10:33 | |
- | No, we was 20 together, 15 to 20 together | 10:35 |
behind the razor wire. | 10:42 | |
Interviewer | And were you shackled or hooded*? | 10:43 |
- | Yes, yes of course. | 10:46 |
Interviewer | And how bad did you have anything | 10:48 |
over your head or could you see everything? | 10:50 | |
- | They opened my eyes when they put me | 10:53 |
behind the razor wire. | 10:55 | |
Interviewer | And what about your clothes? | 10:58 |
Could you wear whatever clothes you were wearing? | 11:00 | |
- | No I didn't have any clothes. | 11:02 |
Interviewer | They took off your clothes? | 11:03 |
- | Yeah. | 11:04 |
Interviewer | And can you describe | 11:06 |
the first interrogation you had in Kandahar? | 11:08 | |
- | My first interrogation in Kandahar, | 11:11 |
it was black guy he asked me all those questions in English. | 11:12 | |
My English used to be, | 11:24 | |
I couldn't speak English. | 11:28 | |
I couldn't speak English at that time. | 11:32 | |
So I could understand a little bit and could answer just | 11:34 | |
yes or no, but I couldn't explain anything, | 11:38 | |
I couldn't speak English. | 11:43 | |
So it was very difficult for me to understand | 11:46 | |
and to answer. | 11:51 | |
I couldn't answer even if I understood a bit. | 11:52 | |
So because there wasn't any translator. | 11:55 | |
I said just to couple of things, yes or no. | 11:59 | |
And after then they brought me back to my place | 12:01 | |
behind the razor wire and after then the interrogations | 12:07 | |
just start in the same way. | 12:10 | |
They brought me papers, what I had to sign. | 12:13 | |
They forced me to sign papers, | 12:16 | |
I should sign those papers | 12:22 | |
and it was written on it, I will never fight again | 12:24 | |
with Taliban and Al-Qaeda against Americans. | 12:28 | |
And there was a bit more | 12:31 | |
if I should do the American government won't be, | 12:34 | |
have the permission to get me back there where I was. | 12:40 | |
So there was a much more | 12:44 | |
but I couldn't understand everything. | 12:47 | |
So I refuse to sign it I said | 12:48 | |
I never fight with Taliban and Al-Qaeda together | 12:52 | |
and I'm not a member of Al-Qaeda, | 12:58 | |
but they said we will make you sign. | 13:00 | |
And after then all tortures, | 13:04 | |
they start to use all kinds of tortures to make me sign. | 13:09 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe some of that. | 13:13 |
- | First they tried by electro shocks. | 13:16 |
Interviewer | How was that, what did they do exactly? | 13:19 |
- | That was, they brought me in tent, | 13:23 |
the interrogations in Kandahar was all in tents. | 13:25 | |
The wasn't no any buildings nothing | 13:28 | |
because it's an air force base. | 13:30 | |
And what used to be exist from the Russian time | 13:35 | |
from the Russians and Taliban took it over | 13:42 | |
and now it's an American Base. | 13:47 | |
So you can imagine during the time, | 13:50 | |
everything got destroyed and there isn't, there's not much. | 13:54 | |
So they built tents for interrogations | 13:59 | |
after then, after a while, | 14:04 | |
they put me in a hanger, they hang me on chains by my hand, | 14:06 | |
I had handcuffs on my hands and those handcuffs, | 14:15 | |
they rope it with a chain and pull me on the ceiling | 14:20 | |
by those chains even my feet used to hang on the floor | 14:24 | |
and I had also shackles on my legs. | 14:28 | |
So all my body used to hang over the floor. | 14:34 | |
And they did it, the doctor came a couple hours later. | 14:39 | |
The doctor came and when the doctor came, | 14:46 | |
they pulled me back down, | 14:50 | |
he checked my eyes and he checked my fingernails. | 14:51 | |
He looked if everything is okay, if I can survive, | 14:55 | |
if I can survive more or not. | 15:01 | |
And if you said, okay, then they pulled me just like up. | 15:04 | |
And he said, every time, okay. | 15:07 | |
He came and he checked my eyes and everything | 15:09 | |
after then he said, okay they put me back up | 15:14 | |
and to the doctor came in twice like twice a day | 15:17 | |
and the interrogator also he came twice a day. | 15:22 | |
Interviewer | Did they talk to you | 15:25 |
while you were hanging or they just let you hang? | 15:26 | |
- | When the interrogator came, they put me back down | 15:29 |
and he asked me if I will sign or not, | 15:35 | |
if I will sign they said they will stop it. | 15:37 | |
And the last, | 15:40 | |
(clear throat) | 15:45 | |
the last couple of days, | 15:47 | |
I can't remember one because I started to pass out. | 15:48 | |
Interviewer | From hanging? | 15:53 |
- | Yeah from hanging and it's not just the hanging. | 15:54 |
It's also very cold, it was during winter time. | 15:58 | |
It was short after Christmas it was very cold | 16:02 | |
in Afghanistan that place Kandahar it's very cold. | 16:06 | |
I guess it was like a 10 under zero, it's Fahrenheit. | 16:12 | |
Interviewer | What were you wearing? | 16:22 |
- | I had just shorts, I had just shorts. | 16:25 |
That is, after then he asked me if I will sign or not. | 16:29 | |
Every time I said no, he said just put them back up. | 16:37 | |
And it was the same thing like three, the first three days. | 16:39 | |
I could remember just the last two days I can't remember. | 16:44 | |
After they brought me back I asked the other prisoners, | 16:49 | |
how long I did stay away. | 16:53 | |
They told me it was five days. | 16:56 | |
Interviewer | Was it 24 hours for five days? | 17:02 |
- | Yeah except those time when the interrogator came, | 17:04 |
they pulled me back down and when their doctor came, | 17:07 | |
so it's means four times a day. | 17:12 | |
They pulled me down for a couple of minutes | 17:15 | |
for five or 10 minutes I don't remember well | 17:18 | |
I didn't have a watch that time. | 17:22 | |
So, I don't know the time exactly but it was 24 hours. | 17:25 | |
Interviewer | And when you passed out, what did they do? | 17:30 |
They let you down when you passed out or they... | 17:33 | |
- | Sometimes I can remember they used water to wake me. | 17:38 |
I don't remember well if they tried to give me water | 17:44 | |
to drink or to wake me, | 17:46 | |
I don't remember but maybe it was to make me wake up. | 17:47 | |
Interviewer | Do you know what agency | 17:55 |
the interrogator was from? | 17:57 | |
- | During my hanging on the chain I didn't get anything | 18:01 |
to eat, they tried to give me an apple | 18:05 | |
couple of times during my hanging at the time. | 18:11 | |
It's you can imagine that in that situation | 18:15 | |
you're not to able to eat anything of course | 18:20 | |
but except that they didn't give me anything | 18:24 | |
to eat of course. | 18:28 | |
(clears throat) | 18:31 | |
Interviewer | Did they do electric shocks to you | 18:32 |
or just that one time and then they started hanging you? | 18:34 | |
Did they do electric checks more than once before they | 18:38 | |
started hanging you or... | 18:40 | |
- | There was many prisoners I talked to them. | 18:42 |
They did it many times, but with me it was just once. | 18:43 | |
Interviewer | And why do they finally let you go back | 18:47 |
after five days do you think? | 18:51 | |
- | I started to pass out, I wasn't able to talk, | 18:55 |
I couldn't sign anything so it wouldn't help. | 19:04 | |
It wouldn't help them | 19:08 | |
Interviewer | And the doctor was there till the end, | 19:09 |
checking on you? | 19:11 | |
- | The doctor? | 19:13 |
Interviewer | The doctor kept coming back | 19:14 |
to check on you? | 19:15 | |
- | The doctor, yes he came every day, twice. | 19:17 |
I don't know, like in 12 hours, every 12 hours, something. | 19:23 | |
There was another guy in front of me. | 19:31 | |
He was hanging in front of me and he couldn't survive. | 19:33 | |
He died, after he died, | 19:37 | |
they let him just hang over there. | 19:40 | |
And he was dead for, | 19:42 | |
he was dead for a long time. | 19:49 | |
The first day they hang me on chain, | 19:51 | |
I could see him that he was moving | 19:53 | |
and people going to him to talk to him | 19:55 | |
or to try to talk to him. | 19:57 | |
But the other days I never saw him moving again. | 19:59 | |
Nobody went to him to take him down or to talk to him. | 20:04 | |
He was just saying 24 hours with no with no any breaks. | 20:06 | |
And this one was dead of course I could see it on his body, | 20:11 | |
his face everything was just, he was a dead man. | 20:18 | |
Interviewer | Do you know who he was? | 20:24 |
- | I don't know, I don't know if I saw him before | 20:27 |
in that camp if I talked to him before | 20:29 | |
but his face was changed | 20:32 | |
because I think he was got beaten up very badly | 20:36 | |
before and I couldn't recognize his face | 20:40 | |
and his head was hanging like that | 20:50 | |
so I couldn't see his face clearly. | 20:52 | |
So I couldn't know if I know him or not, | 20:56 | |
I don't know. | 20:59 | |
Interviewer | What were you thinking about yourself | 21:01 |
when you saw that? | 21:03 | |
- | It was for me, | 21:06 |
of course it was, I was sure I could be | 21:07 | |
the next one and because it's in place with no with no rules | 21:11 | |
and the only rules is that they can make everything | 21:16 | |
what they want to and nobody except those his head, | 21:21 | |
was hanging like that. | 21:26 | |
So I couldn't see his face clearly. | 21:27 | |
So I couldn't know if I know him or not I don't know. | 21:31 | |
Interviewer | What were you thinking about yourself | 21:36 |
when you saw that? | 21:38 | |
- | It was for me, of course I was sure I could be | 21:41 |
the next one and because it's in place with | 21:46 | |
no rules and the only rules is that they can make | 21:49 | |
everything what they want to. | 21:55 | |
And nobody except those people who was working there, | 21:57 | |
knows anything what's going on. | 22:05 | |
Nobody knows so it's in place with the rules | 22:07 | |
and they can everything happens. | 22:10 | |
Interviewer | So how did you manage, | 22:14 |
what were you thinking about how do you manage that | 22:16 | |
or how you would cope with that or endure that? | 22:20 | |
Did you think about that you would die too? | 22:25 | |
Or did you think of how you could survive? | 22:28 | |
- | I wasn't sure if I was survive or not. | 22:35 |
Especially after I saw that guy he died on the chain. | 22:38 | |
First I saw him moving little bit after then he died. | 22:43 | |
I was sure they can do the same thing with me. | 22:51 | |
They can just let me hang there and after three days | 22:54 | |
I understood that it's very close | 22:59 | |
that I could die anytime. | 23:05 | |
But it was better for me to die | 23:07 | |
than to sign those papers and to agree | 23:12 | |
that I been a terrorist and I wouldn't think my family | 23:15 | |
that I'm a terrorist. | 23:23 | |
And that's why it's was for maybe better to die | 23:24 | |
than to let my family thing that I am a terrorist. | 23:29 | |
And I never will sign, they tried five years | 23:33 | |
they never stop those tortures. | 23:35 | |
All those five years the tried to make me sign those papers | 23:38 | |
until I got released in the last minutes | 23:42 | |
the last words was, if you don't sign | 23:45 | |
you will never leave this place. | 23:48 | |
And how I say it, they try to just until the last minute | 23:50 | |
to make me sign. | 23:56 | |
Interviewer | Did they do any other torture | 24:00 |
or mistreatment to you while you were in Kandahar? | 24:02 | |
(clears throat) | 24:10 | |
- | There was the beatings and pine scent gas it was, | 24:11 |
that was a normal in that camp to us, | 24:16 | |
they did it 24 hours with anybody. | 24:19 | |
They just could take you out of behind the razor wire | 24:24 | |
bring you to interrogation, beat you up, bring you back. | 24:28 | |
It was very how you say a normal that camp. | 24:33 | |
So the guards which worked over there it was fun for them, | 24:37 | |
they enjoyed that very much and it's in place with no rules. | 24:44 | |
So there was authorized to do anything anytime | 24:50 | |
and interrogation it was 24 hours. | 24:55 | |
It's | 24:58 | |
(clears throat) | 25:00 | |
once it took five hours, seven hours, | 25:01 | |
one interrogator he's leaving, | 25:04 | |
the other one was coming | 25:06 | |
and with me it's happened many times | 25:08 | |
that I was, once I was 30 hours in an interrogation, | 25:13 | |
it was in Guantanamo not in Kandahar. | 25:17 | |
But the interrogations was with no time | 25:20 | |
and so they could take you at night or on daytime | 25:28 | |
it doesn't matter. | 25:32 | |
Interviewer | And so you were physically | 25:34 |
beaten up too then? | 25:35 | |
- | Yes, of course that was a minimum | 25:37 |
what's going on in that camp | 25:40 | |
Interviewer | And I had heard that you may | 25:42 |
have been waterboarded. | 25:44 | |
- | Yeah, the waterboarding it was after the electro shocks | 25:46 |
before they hang me on chain. | 25:53 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe. | 25:55 |
(clears throat) | 25:57 | |
- | There was buckets. | 25:58 |
You call it buckets, right? | 26:00 | |
Bucket of water and my hands were shackled, | 26:02 | |
handcuffed behind my back. | 26:07 | |
And two guards, they holding one right, one left. | 26:10 | |
They holding me from my arms | 26:16 | |
and they stick my head into the water in that bucket. | 26:19 | |
And then the same time they punch me into my stomach | 26:27 | |
so I had to inhale all those water | 26:30 | |
and it's give you the feeling like drowning | 26:33 | |
that is not called waterboarding | 26:42 | |
it's called water treatment. | 26:44 | |
The waterboarding is the other thing | 26:47 | |
where you have a stretch and it's very old kind of torture. | 26:50 | |
It's all a thousand years old that torture it's very famous. | 26:57 | |
You will get the stretch where they rock your hands and legs | 27:03 | |
and from your throat so you can't, you can't move any. | 27:11 | |
And from you and from your how you call it? | 27:17 | |
Interviewer | Forehead. | 27:20 |
- | From your head also so you can move your head | 27:21 |
and your whole body | 27:24 | |
and they will put water into your mouth. | 27:26 | |
until you will have the feeling of drowning, | 27:33 | |
or anything can happen of course. | 27:35 | |
And at the same time they asking you questions. | 27:41 | |
Interviewer | Did that happen to you or-- | 27:44 |
- | They didn't ask me questions, they put just my head | 27:45 |
into water and punched me into my stomach. | 27:48 | |
They didn't ask me questions just the hands on me | 27:51 | |
and they like it and stuff like that. | 27:56 | |
Interviewer | And they did it a few times | 28:00 |
or just one time? | 28:02 | |
- | That water treatment was once. | 28:03 |
Interviewer | And the next time | 28:08 |
then they started hanging you. | 28:09 | |
- | Yeah, it was not the next day but few days later | 28:11 |
or a week later I don't remember it was just after that. | 28:17 | |
Interviewer | Did you see other men who were | 28:22 |
treated like you were treated? | 28:24 | |
- | You can't see inside the tents, | 28:27 |
the tents are like 50 meters away from you, | 28:30 | |
like 50 meters and you can't watch into the tents. | 28:38 | |
Interviewer | But so you just heard stories | 28:45 |
when they came back to the tent? | 28:47 | |
- | Yeah, of course, the problem was in Kandahar | 28:52 |
I couldn't speak Arabic and my English was way bad | 28:57 | |
I couldn't speak English, so that was a problem | 29:02 | |
to communicate with anybody in Kandahar | 29:08 | |
even the people came back, | 29:11 | |
I couldn't ask them what was happening. | 29:13 | |
Just few words and it was like a one, two months later, | 29:15 | |
I start to talk few words in Arabic and in English. | 29:22 | |
And then I could understand a bit more. | 29:26 | |
Interviewer | So what, could you explain what happened | 29:30 |
when they finally decide to send you to Guantanamo? | 29:32 | |
How did that happened? | 29:35 | |
One day did they just did they tell you were going? | 29:37 | |
- | No, one day they came one day they start to pick up people | 29:42 |
every two weeks, people came special trained soldiers | 29:51 | |
for that purpose, they came and to pick a couple numbers up, | 29:58 | |
they called the numbers | 30:07 | |
and they had to lay on the floor. | 30:08 | |
Like everybody else, they got shackled and handcuffed. | 30:11 | |
They covered their eyes and they moved | 30:15 | |
them somewhere else. | 30:18 | |
It was every 14 days, they took 20 people. | 30:19 | |
And one day we got very less in Kandahar. | 30:26 | |
We went just | 30:31 | |
(clears throat) | 30:32 | |
from couple hundreds, | 30:34 | |
we were just only left hundred on less than a hundred, | 30:37 | |
like 70 or something. | 30:43 | |
And I was one of them, | 30:45 | |
the last group went to Guantanamo was my group, | 30:47 | |
I was with them | 30:52 | |
and because there was no any more place | 30:54 | |
in Guantanamo to take more. | 30:57 | |
Interviewer | Did they tell you gonna go to Guantanamo? | 31:01 |
- | No, nobody did know where we are going. | 31:04 |
Nobody know where we're going. | 31:06 | |
They picked me up before they cover my eyes | 31:08 | |
they said we'll bring you somewhere | 31:12 | |
where we going to shoot you. | 31:16 | |
Interviewer | They said they gonna shoot you? | 31:18 |
- | Before they cover my eyes and ear and give me the mask. | 31:20 |
They said, we going to bring you somewhere | 31:25 | |
where we going to shoot you, | 31:28 | |
I didn't ask them where we going but they told me that. | 31:29 | |
For me it's what we release I mean, | 31:36 | |
you can imagine if you get tortured for many months, | 31:39 | |
I never did die but that's why I don't know how it's feel, | 31:44 | |
but I believe it's easier than to get tortured. | 31:48 | |
That's why I didn't care about it I laugh just | 31:53 | |
I said, "It's okay," and they moved me into the plane. | 31:55 | |
And after a long flight, | 32:00 | |
I don't know how long it took. | 32:05 | |
After a long flight, they opened my eyes | 32:10 | |
and I was in a country where it's was very hot, | 32:13 | |
sunny and very hot. | 32:17 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see the Red Cross | 32:18 |
while you were in Kandahar? | 32:20 | |
- | Yeah many times in Kandahar. | 32:22 |
Interviewer | In Kandahar | 32:25 |
- | In Kandahar just, I'm not sure | 32:25 |
but I think it was just twice. | 32:29 | |
Interviewer | And do you remember, did they tell you | 32:32 |
anything while you were in Kandahar? | 32:34 | |
- | I talked to them, | 32:41 |
I talked to them and that's why I got beaten up also | 32:43 | |
because I talked to them. | 32:47 | |
They was authorized to come into the camp twice or thrice | 32:51 | |
I'm not sure but I'm sure I saw them minimum twice | 32:56 | |
in that camp. | 32:59 | |
They came and | 33:02 | |
(clears throat) | 33:03 | |
they asked me where I'm coming from. | 33:05 | |
One of them he could speak German, he was German. | 33:07 | |
He was with us also in Guantanamo later. | 33:11 | |
And just what I don't understand they never gave anything, | 33:16 | |
they never talked outside about it what's going on | 33:25 | |
over there and what's happened to us | 33:28 | |
and they didn't went to our families and they did nothing. | 33:30 | |
They came just they said we are from Red Cross. | 33:35 | |
We trying to help you guys, | 33:37 | |
we trying to get you guys a lawyer or human rights. | 33:39 | |
And we try to put you guys as war prisoners | 33:43 | |
but outside after I got released, | 33:52 | |
I understood that nobody did know that Red Cross was there | 33:56 | |
that Red Cross talk to us that Red Cross being over there | 34:00 | |
and didn't know about everything. | 34:03 | |
Nobody know about Red Cross is doing. | 34:05 | |
So I don't know if it was a game or not I don't know | 34:07 | |
but the Red Cross came and visit me. | 34:12 | |
They told me I can write a postcard to my family. | 34:18 | |
Then I said, "Okay, I want to write a postcard" | 34:22 | |
then the guard said I'm not authorized to use a pen. | 34:28 | |
It's a weapon so I had to dictate the postcard | 34:34 | |
to that Red Cross man, | 34:43 | |
the gentleman and he wrote it for me. | 34:45 | |
And then the same day at nighttime, | 34:49 | |
they picked me up for an interrogation | 34:53 | |
and the interrogator had that postcard in his hand. | 34:56 | |
And he said you thought that this postcard will go out | 35:00 | |
and reach your family? | 35:08 | |
Something like that and I got beaten up for that postcard. | 35:09 | |
They said if you want to write something, | 35:16 | |
it has to look different. | 35:18 | |
I had to write a much, I had to write a nice postcard, | 35:20 | |
so happy Christmas and everything I don't know. | 35:27 | |
Interviewer | What did you say in your postcard | 35:31 |
that he didn't like it? | 35:32 | |
- | I didn't talk about everything it's any way a postcard | 35:40 |
it's not a regular postcard it's a postcard | 35:43 | |
where you have three or four lines, short lines, | 35:45 | |
half of the postcard something it's you can, | 35:51 | |
I'm sure you can find some of those Red Cross postcards. | 35:55 | |
(clears throat) | 35:59 | |
I said just I'm fine, I'm alive and I got arrested | 36:01 | |
I don't know why and I didn't talk about those tortures | 36:09 | |
in that postcard but I said just I don't know the reason | 36:16 | |
why I'm here and stuff like that. | 36:20 | |
And that I'm innocent don't be worried I will be back. | 36:22 | |
It was nice, it was nice. | 36:28 | |
(chuckles) | 36:30 | |
Interviewer | Do you wanna take a break | 36:31 |
and have some coffee? | 36:32 | |
- | Yeah. | 36:33 |
Camerawoman | Do you mind if I just pause? | 36:36 |
- | Very famous before? | 36:37 |
Interviewer | Really? | 36:38 |
- | Yeah, he was fighting in the open weight class and-- | 36:39 |
Interviewer | He was yeah, he's trying to do it again, | 36:45 |
but did you know karate too? | 36:48 | |
- | I did train karate I started when I was seven | 36:50 |
with martial arts, I still do martial arts. | 36:54 | |
Yeah plexiglass isolation, something like that. | 36:57 | |
Interviewer | But yeah, he's trying to do it again | 37:02 |
'cause you know-- | 37:05 | |
- | Is he healthy? | 37:06 |
Interviewer | Excuse me. | 37:08 |
- | Is he healthy? | 37:09 |
Interviewer | He can't get work easily so print of --. | 37:10 |
- | Hand print from a child from a child three | 37:13 |
or four years old child and he showed me that. | 37:18 | |
He said, "Look," | 37:21 | |
I said, "What's that?" | 37:23 | |
He said, "This is my child, I never saw him." | 37:24 | |
And he was already so old that he can draw his own hands. | 37:27 | |
It's hard for him. | 37:33 | |
Interviewer | Its hard, | 37:33 |
you know other men also just had children-- | 37:34 | |
- | There was many people there, | 37:37 |
their wives was pregnant when they got arrested. | 37:39 | |
Interviewer | Okay, so you | 37:44 |
so then that night the interrogator said for writing | 37:48 | |
that postcard that was, | 37:50 | |
he wasn't happy with the postcard you wrote | 37:53 | |
- | Yeah. | 37:56 |
Interviewer | And you need to write something else. | 37:58 |
And did he say he was not gonna send that postcard? | 37:59 | |
- | That postcard, I never write another one. | 38:03 |
Interviewer | Did you write another postcard? | 38:06 |
- | We couldn't write a postcard when you liked to | 38:09 |
so a few times I think it's a by the Red Cross law | 38:12 | |
or something if you arrive somewhere new, | 38:20 | |
you can write a postcard or something like that. | 38:22 | |
It's a worldwide rule or something | 38:26 | |
I don't know what long | 38:28 | |
and the next time was when I arrived at Guantanamo | 38:31 | |
the Red Cross was there, | 38:35 | |
I could write write a postcard. | 38:37 | |
Interviewer | A different postcard this time. | 38:39 |
- | That time I could write myself, | 38:42 |
I had shackles, handcuffs and shackles. | 38:45 | |
So it was difficult to write, but I could write a little bit | 38:49 | |
so I wrote, I am fine and stuff like that. | 38:53 | |
Interviewer | Can you describe the plane ride | 38:59 |
to Guantanamo? | 39:01 | |
How you were treated on that plane ride? | 39:02 | |
- | On plane we was just shackled and chained on the plane. | 39:08 |
It was all my shackles was locked on the plane ground | 39:15 | |
and I had a chain around my waist | 39:22 | |
and it was locked on that seat | 39:28 | |
so I couldn't stand up. | 39:31 | |
I had gloves on my hands, one piece gloves | 39:33 | |
so you couldn't grab anything? | 39:36 | |
I had a mask, ear protection not to protect my ears | 39:39 | |
so I couldn't hear anything | 39:43 | |
what the guys are talking and goggles | 39:45 | |
you call it goggles, right? | 39:50 | |
Interviewer | Goggles | 39:51 |
- | Goggles, yes goggles | 39:52 |
I couldn't see anything | 39:54 | |
and during the whole flight | 39:55 | |
I didn't get anything to eat, to drink, nothing. | 40:04 | |
Interviewer | Could you go to the bathroom? | 40:09 |
- | No, no. | 40:10 |
Interviewer | Did you ask to go or? | 40:11 |
- | I didn't ask but many other ones | 40:14 |
say they would like to go, they couldn't, | 40:16 | |
I didn't, I mean in Kandahar | 40:21 | |
we didn't get so much to drink or to eat, | 40:23 | |
so it wasn't a big deal for me | 40:25 | |
but many other ones, they had a big problem. | 40:28 | |
Interviewer | And when you arrived in Guantanamo | 40:34 |
the first few weeks when you arrived what happened | 40:36 | |
when you first came there? | 40:39 | |
- | In Guantanamo? | 40:41 |
Interviewer | When you got off the plane. | 40:44 |
- | After I got to from the plane, | 40:47 |
they took a couple of samples, hair samples, | 40:51 | |
there was a female doctor, | 40:56 | |
she took a couple of pieces of my hair | 40:59 | |
and she looked into my eyes I don't know why | 41:01 | |
and they took fingerprints | 41:09 | |
and so after then they brought me to my cage. | 41:15 | |
Interviewer | And what camp was that? | 41:28 |
- | It was Camp Delta | 41:30 |
I thought its just, it's for a couple of minutes | 41:33 | |
to get change your clothes because the cage was so small. | 41:40 | |
I thought this can just be for a couple of minutes. | 41:45 | |
I really didn't trust that I will live over there | 41:47 | |
for the next five years. | 41:52 | |
I thought that really it's just for a few minutes | 41:55 | |
and then they will bring them over to that prison, | 41:57 | |
wherever it is. | 42:01 | |
I looked around where the prison could be. | 42:02 | |
I thought maybe behind the hill, behind the hills. | 42:05 | |
After a couple hours, | 42:12 | |
I start to ask my neighbors | 42:14 | |
to who I couldn't speak in my language. | 42:17 | |
I asked him how long you were here, | 42:21 | |
like five minutes, 10 minutes. | 42:23 | |
And he showed me something like 10 or 15. | 42:25 | |
I thought 15 minutes | 42:27 | |
and I was already a couple of hours there | 42:30 | |
that's mean they could move me anytime. | 42:34 | |
But few days later I understood that he tried | 42:37 | |
to say 15 days or something. | 42:42 | |
And I understood that is my place where I have to stay | 42:44 | |
so because there was no toilets, nothing. | 42:49 | |
Interviewer | Would you have a bucket or? | 42:55 |
- | Bucket, yeah. | 42:57 |
Interviewer | And what | 42:59 |
was your first interrogation like? | 43:00 | |
- | My first interrogation-- | 43:05 |
Interviewer | In Guantanamo. | 43:06 |
- | It was a lieutenant. | 43:10 |
He was interrogating me, he should interrogate me. | 43:13 | |
It was my first interrogation in Guantanamo. | 43:17 | |
The lieutenant and | 43:20 | |
(clears throat) | 43:21 | |
he could speak also German. | 43:25 | |
He said that he went to school in Germany | 43:28 | |
and he stayed there a couple of years in Germany, | 43:33 | |
his German wasn't bad, his German was good. | 43:37 | |
And it was the first time after I got arrested | 43:41 | |
that somebody spoke German to me except that Red Cross man. | 43:44 | |
I mean from those interrogators now with no interrogator. | 43:49 | |
He asked me his first question was, | 43:58 | |
"Do you know what Hitler did with the Jewish people?" | 44:01 | |
I said, I'm from Germany of course | 44:05 | |
I know the history very well. | 44:07 | |
He laughed very loudly and said that we will do | 44:12 | |
the same thing to you guys. | 44:14 | |
I don't know if you saw me as a Nazi | 44:17 | |
because I'm from Germany, | 44:19 | |
I don't know when he said that. | 44:20 | |
He was just crazy so I had him twice again | 44:25 | |
after that and then I never saw him again. | 44:28 | |
Interviewer | How long were these interrogations | 44:33 |
and were you mistreated or threatened or anything happen | 44:35 | |
during these interrogations? | 44:40 | |
What are questions did they ask you? | 44:42 | |
How were they? | 44:44 | |
- | He asked me many questions. | 44:49 |
He asked me almost everything | 44:51 | |
but he thought that I know the events of 11th September | 44:53 | |
and that I did know all those people personally. | 45:02 | |
He would know what I talked with those people. | 45:08 | |
He didn't ask me if I saw them ever he asked me just | 45:12 | |
what you guys talked and he told me that | 45:15 | |
they went to a gym in Germany, somewhere in Hamburg. | 45:20 | |
And he said, he knows that I am training also in Germany, | 45:25 | |
(chuckles) | 45:30 | |
that we had to train. | 45:31 | |
It was for him everything very clearly | 45:32 | |
he said, "You know those guys and to tell me what | 45:34 | |
"everything you would talk with them." | 45:39 | |
It's all just crazy I said, I don't know those people. | 45:42 | |
I never saw them, I have nothing to do with those people. | 45:45 | |
Interviewer | And how was your days | 45:50 |
in the first few weeks | 45:52 | |
in Guantanamo besides being interrogated? | 45:54 | |
What else was the day like? | 45:56 | |
- | He asked me if I saw Osama bin Laden, | 46:07 |
still the same questions. | 46:10 | |
And I don't know why they still asking always | 46:13 | |
the same questions even though I told them many times, | 46:18 | |
I don't know or it's not true. | 46:23 | |
And they still asking those questions. | 46:26 | |
I don't know what reason for. | 46:30 | |
Interviewer | And could you talk to other prisoners | 46:31 |
while you were there the first few weeks? | 46:34 | |
- | Yeah, after a while I start to speak a bit Arabic | 46:36 |
and English so there was many prisoners | 46:42 | |
they could speak very well English | 46:44 | |
and there was many prisoners from UK, like 15 or 20, | 46:47 | |
I guess something | 46:53 | |
they could with those people I could speak in English. | 46:55 | |
If they was close to me, I wasn't authorized to talk | 46:58 | |
to my neighbors but of course I did. | 47:02 | |
If I had neighbor he could speak English then I did. | 47:08 | |
Interviewer | And did you speak to your guards too? | 47:13 |
- | To the guards they wasn't authorized to talk with us. | 47:18 |
If they did they got punished, the guards | 47:22 | |
and we got punished also but we talked of course. | 47:26 | |
Interviewer | Were any of the guides nice to you? | 47:30 |
- | Inside those five years there was four guards | 47:34 |
who was they was different they was, | 47:40 | |
they tried to be nice. | 47:44 | |
Interviewer | How? | 47:45 |
- | There was one of them, he was a old man he was very old. | 47:47 |
He said that he was in, | 47:55 | |
he worked in Vietnam something. | 47:59 | |
I don't know what, | 48:01 | |
I don't know if it's true or not. | 48:05 | |
That is what he told me that he worked in Vietnam | 48:06 | |
and it was like this every time if the whole team | 48:09 | |
did something, beat something up, he didn't enjoy that. | 48:14 | |
He didn't went with them inside or beat somebody up. | 48:19 | |
And if he divide our food, | 48:21 | |
he gave us everything. | 48:27 | |
What we should get because probably it's like that. | 48:30 | |
if other guards walking in that block, | 48:34 | |
if you should get also a piece of bread, you don't get one, | 48:37 | |
you get just rice or you don't get the rice, | 48:40 | |
you get just bread it's the guards playing | 48:42 | |
how they liked it. | 48:45 | |
So if you worked he gave you your rice and your bread | 48:47 | |
and your drink so he was different. | 48:49 | |
He did his job so I asked him one day, why he's different? | 48:53 | |
And he starts to cry he said, "He wants to treat people | 49:00 | |
"like how he wants to get treated." | 49:07 | |
He said he had a friend, | 49:09 | |
he got captured in Vietnam | 49:11 | |
And he got tortured badly I don't know if he died or not. | 49:14 | |
I didn't ask him and he said he knows very well | 49:18 | |
what's the meaning of torture. | 49:22 | |
And so that's why he said just, | 49:25 | |
I want to treat you guys, | 49:31 | |
how I liked myself get treatment. | 49:33 | |
Interviewer | How long did you, when did you see | 49:37 |
this guard and how long do you think that was? | 49:39 | |
(clears throat) | 49:43 | |
- | It was like three years after I got captured, | 49:46 |
it was like 2004 or five, 2004. | 49:49 | |
Interviewer | And you talked about being-- | 49:56 |
- | But I'm not sure about the time, | 49:58 |
but I guess it's almost like something 2004. | 49:59 | |
Interviewer | And you had talked about being | 50:03 |
effed where you ever effed | 50:05 | |
and why were the people effed? | 50:06 | |
- | It's different reasons for if you, | 50:09 |
I had many pets, which was wasting me during the daytime | 50:14 | |
iguanas I hide for my bread couple pieces | 50:21 | |
then the iguanas came I have fed the iguanas. | 50:29 | |
So and iguanas are very a smart animals. | 50:31 | |
If you fed them once, they will recognize you | 50:36 | |
and come every day. | 50:39 | |
And at the exactly same time, | 50:41 | |
they came on my fence and wait until I give them bread. | 50:43 | |
I took the piece of bread and put them in their mouth. | 50:47 | |
So if I got captured they punished me by isolation | 50:49 | |
because you are not authorized to feed animals. | 50:54 | |
Same thing with birds, they captured me a couple of times, | 50:59 | |
feeding the birds, they punished me by isolation. | 51:02 | |
They captured me doing martial arts inside my cell. | 51:05 | |
I got punished by isolation, | 51:09 | |
I was doing pushups, I got punished by isolation. | 51:11 | |
If you get punished by isolation, | 51:16 | |
the F team would come, | 51:18 | |
they'll beat you up, get you out, | 51:19 | |
they'll spray first with the pepper spray on you | 51:21 | |
so you can't see anything and they will come inside | 51:24 | |
fight with you, put you on the floor, | 51:29 | |
rope your hands with a plastic... | 51:32 | |
Interviewer | Cuffs? | 51:37 |
- | Yeah, cuffs. | 51:38 |
And also then they bring you to an isolation. | 51:40 | |
And the minium of isolation starts with 30 days | 51:43 | |
that's the minimum | 51:46 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever, did you have a Quran | 51:48 |
in your cell? | 51:51 | |
- | I was forced to keep it in my cell | 51:54 |
I didn't want one but I had to keep one | 51:57 | |
I didn't want the Quran myself because the guards, | 52:02 | |
if they search our cell they took the Quran | 52:05 | |
throw it on the floor they kick it. | 52:10 | |
And it's a holy book. | 52:12 | |
And we don't want the holy book gets treatment like that. | 52:15 | |
And that way I didn't want the Quran in my cell | 52:19 | |
like many other prisoners but I was forced. | 52:23 | |
The F team came, took me out. | 52:29 | |
I got beaten up and they put the Quran on my cell. | 52:31 | |
That was same thing with everybody else. | 52:34 | |
It was very important for the media people, | 52:40 | |
the military media people when they came with the camera, | 52:43 | |
they had to see Quran hanging on your cell. | 52:45 | |
It's look better religious people reading the Quran | 52:49 | |
and everything well, we are very respectful | 52:55 | |
with their religion we let them everything do. | 53:00 | |
It's just a politic, political game. | 53:03 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe how isolation | 53:09 |
was for you? | 53:11 | |
- | Isolation it was different every time different. | 53:15 |
- | How was it different each time? | 53:19 |
- | The same isolation they can, | 53:21 |
you get threatened by coldness, | 53:24 | |
there is an air condition, | 53:28 | |
very strong air conditions they can make | 53:31 | |
it very cold inside. | 53:37 | |
I would take this water. | 53:41 | |
They can make it very cold or they can make it very hot. | 53:43 | |
Or they can make it dark so you don't have any light. | 53:56 | |
You can't see your hands, nothing. | 54:00 | |
And yeah then you have plexiglass isolation. | 54:03 | |
Interviewer | What? | 54:10 |
- | Plexiglass... | 54:11 |
Interviewer | I know what that is, what does it mean? | 54:13 |
What happens in there? | 54:16 | |
- | You know what plexiglass is, right? | 54:17 |
Interviewer | Sure, yeah. | 54:18 |
- | That is a regularly cell like Camp Delta. | 54:20 |
Actually you saw the movie "The road to Guantanamo." | 54:25 | |
The cells you can see the cells of Camp Delta, right? | 54:29 | |
that is irregular cells. | 54:33 | |
So the same cage is covered by plexiglasses everywhere. | 54:35 | |
So Guantanamo is very hot and with a very high humidity, | 54:41 | |
it's so very sticky, if you're in that isolation | 54:50 | |
with that plexiglasses, | 54:57 | |
you can, you get light into your cell | 55:00 | |
but it's gets very, very hot and inside and you will get, | 55:04 | |
you have struggled to breath so you pass out. | 55:12 | |
And that is a plexiglass isolations. | 55:18 | |
Interviewer | Did they and they always took you | 55:25 |
to isolation because of the stories you were saying | 55:27 | |
because you fed animals | 55:31 | |
or because you didn't want a Quran. | 55:33 | |
Was it ever because you didn't answer questions or you? | 55:36 | |
- | It was different, sometimes I beat up the guards | 55:40 |
and I got punished for that also. | 55:46 | |
Interviewer | How did that happen? | 55:48 |
- | But it was just a few times. | 55:49 |
(clears throat) | 55:53 | |
I didn't try to fight with the guards so much | 55:55 | |
because anyway, we get so less to eat. | 55:57 | |
I was happy if I can stand on my feet. | 56:01 | |
And the most of the times it was because of animals | 56:06 | |
or doing martial arts. | 56:09 | |
Interviewer | But when you said you beat up the guards, | 56:11 |
how did that happen? | 56:13 | |
- | It happened sometimes | 56:16 |
(clears throat) | 56:18 | |
I was in a shower. | 56:19 | |
Every time again you put if you get soap, | 56:20 | |
if you get sometimes soap just only if you can have shower | 56:23 | |
if you put soap on our heads and he's turning off the water. | 56:30 | |
So it's every time, the same thing | 56:34 | |
and sometimes you get angry and they took me out. | 56:38 | |
I had handcuffs, shackles and chains around the waist, | 56:45 | |
handcuffs and together with the shackles around your waist | 56:52 | |
and another shackle another chain including your feet's, | 56:59 | |
shackles and handcuffs. | 57:06 | |
They took me out before they took me out. | 57:09 | |
I said I want to take a shower. | 57:12 | |
He said, "You got your shower already. | 57:15 | |
"Probably you should get five minutes official," | 57:17 | |
And he said, "You got your five minutes." | 57:21 | |
He turned off the water, I put soap in my head | 57:23 | |
and he turned off just less than a minute. | 57:25 | |
I told him, "You didn't give me five minutes, | 57:28 | |
"give me five minutes," and he said, "No." | 57:30 | |
And I said, "I will not get out here | 57:34 | |
"if you don't give me shower." | 57:36 | |
And he called the officer. | 57:38 | |
He came, he said, "You have to move out and you are lying. | 57:42 | |
"I believe my soldiers they don't lie." | 57:47 | |
And I said, "Okay take me out." | 57:50 | |
They took me out and I beat that guard | 57:53 | |
who didn't give me my five minutes. | 57:58 | |
Interviewer | How did you beat him? | 58:00 |
- | They holding my arms and I hit them with my head | 58:02 |
he was close to me, I hit him with my head | 58:08 | |
and I grabbed him and he fall on the ground | 58:10 | |
and I didn't let him, I fell on him, | 58:14 | |
I hit him with my head and with my knees | 58:17 | |
and with my elbows. | 58:19 | |
So they punished me for it of course, | 58:21 | |
again with isolation there wasn't a big difference | 58:25 | |
if you was a good guy or bad guy | 58:29 | |
doesn't make difference. | 58:31 | |
You will get punished for everything anyway. | 58:32 | |
(clears throat) | 58:36 | |
But I'm not a person who likes to beat up people. | 58:37 | |
Before I got arrested, I was working in Germany here | 58:44 | |
in security jobs after school after my job | 58:48 | |
in weekends or holidays and I don't like beat up people. | 58:53 | |
I did it many times, | 58:59 | |
I trained martial arts. | 59:01 | |
But to do that in a ring as a sport is different | 59:03 | |
than if you beat up somebody in real, | 59:10 | |
of course sometimes it's happened. | 59:14 | |
It's a real situation or you want protect somebody, | 59:16 | |
then you have to do it and sometimes it's happened. | 59:19 | |
Interviewer | And did you always, were you always, | 59:28 |
so well-built while you were in Guantanamo, | 59:30 | |
like you could beat them up that you were | 59:32 | |
that strong all the time. | 59:34 | |
- | We got very less to eat of course I lost weight | 59:37 |
and then I couldn't train martial arts all the time. | 59:40 | |
I was even not authorized to train pushups | 59:44 | |
and I did it but anyways doesn't help much | 59:49 | |
if you get just very less to eat | 59:53 | |
but I tried my best | 59:58 | |
I try to keep my body healthy. | 1:00:02 | |
And if you want to get somebody, | 1:00:06 | |
if you want beat up somebody, | 1:00:12 | |
you don't need a big body for it | 1:00:13 | |
if you can do martial arts, | 1:00:18 | |
then the technique is a much more important | 1:00:21 | |
than your muscles. | 1:00:26 | |
The muscles is just a bit of it. | 1:00:27 | |
Just, you need just a bit of muscle. | 1:00:30 | |
Interviewer | And did you mind going to isolation? | 1:00:35 |
Was that okay | 1:00:38 | |
or did some isolation worse than others | 1:00:39 | |
or better than others? | 1:00:41 | |
- | There was, | 1:00:44 |
they change every time the rules, you know, | 1:00:48 | |
they change every time rules, | 1:00:50 | |
they met to once for many months, | 1:00:51 | |
there was a rule you will get in isolation | 1:00:55 | |
just a special thing to eat. | 1:01:02 | |
Like in isolation, you will get every time only rice | 1:01:03 | |
once for many months it was the same thing. | 1:01:08 | |
And then they changed the rules again in isolations, | 1:01:11 | |
we start to get only a piece of bread | 1:01:16 | |
you know, toast breads this square ones? | 1:01:22 | |
Interviewer | Rolls like bagels. | 1:01:25 |
- | No, no bagels just, we call it toast bread. | 1:01:27 |
Interviewer | Toast yeah. | 1:01:31 |
- | One piece, one slice toast bread in morning, | 1:01:33 |
one in afternoon and one in evening. | 1:01:39 | |
So three slices toast bread in inside 24 hours. | 1:01:46 | |
And except those we got a half of the half apple | 1:01:52 | |
Interviewer | A quarter of an apple | 1:02:01 |
- | A quarter of an apple for morning, | 1:02:03 |
quarter of a carrot in at noon time and a quarter of a... | 1:02:05 | |
How do you call it, not apple alone. | 1:02:12 | |
Interviewer | Pear or-- | 1:02:16 |
- | Yeah pear right that was to keep us healthy. | 1:02:17 |
So that was the isolation for the last two years. | 1:02:21 | |
Interviewer | For two years straight? | 1:02:28 |
You were in isolation for two years? | 1:02:30 | |
- | No, no, no, no. I was a straight in once the maximum | 1:02:31 |
was like close to a hundred days, | 1:02:36 | |
like three months or over three months. | 1:02:42 | |
Interviewer | How did you manage to, | 1:02:45 |
how did you handle that? | 1:02:47 | |
Was that okay or did you were able to keep yourself | 1:02:48 | |
working out or reading the Quran? | 1:02:52 | |
- | It's very difficult, if they made it cold. | 1:02:55 |
If they made it very cold, you try your best | 1:03:01 | |
to keep you warm but after one or two weeks, | 1:03:06 | |
you will get very sick. | 1:03:11 | |
That is that was what happened every time. | 1:03:13 | |
When they did it very warm for 30 days, | 1:03:21 | |
then you have a trouble to breathe | 1:03:28 | |
because it's very hot anyway | 1:03:33 | |
and inside that it's an isolation from it's just metal | 1:03:36 | |
and nothing else. | 1:03:42 | |
Everything is a metal and everything is difficult, | 1:03:44 | |
all kinds of difficult. | 1:03:49 | |
And if you don't have sun for 30 days | 1:03:53 | |
or a hundred days then your skin becomes | 1:03:56 | |
it becomes very white and very soft | 1:04:01 | |
you get sick of course. | 1:04:09 | |
Interviewer | Did you see a doctor during that time? | 1:04:11 |
- | No, the doctor would come if you pass out or something. | 1:04:13 |
- | Otherwise you wouldn't see a doctor. | 1:04:18 |
- | No. | 1:04:20 |
Interviewer | Did you ever pass out | 1:04:21 |
and have a doctor come to you? | 1:04:22 | |
- | I pass it out many times, they were opening the bean hole, | 1:04:24 |
it's called the bean hole where they gave us our food. | 1:04:27 | |
There they came with a pipe and a put hot water on my face | 1:04:31 | |
until I woke up if they opened the bean hole | 1:04:40 | |
because of the fresh air, you can wake up anyway | 1:04:43 | |
so I don't know if it was the water | 1:04:47 | |
but the fresh air it helps you, of course. | 1:04:49 | |
Interviewer | Was a doctor there when they did that. | 1:04:52 |
- | No but I know a couple of people they passed out | 1:04:54 |
and the doctor came but not every time. | 1:04:58 | |
The doctor does not come if you pass out, | 1:05:02 | |
just if you pass out and it's something very real, | 1:05:05 | |
you could die then he will come. | 1:05:09 | |
Interviewer | So do you ever see doctors at all | 1:05:11 |
while you were in Guantanamo? | 1:05:13 | |
- | Yeah. | 1:05:16 |
Interviewer | Could you tell me how that happened, | 1:05:17 |
how that? | 1:05:20 | |
- | Once they didn't give me for many days to anything to eat | 1:05:23 |
in isolation and I was shackled and handcuffed. | 1:05:28 | |
I was laying on my stomach on the floor on my face. | 1:05:33 | |
They didn't give me anything to eat and drink. | 1:05:42 | |
And I passed out, I can't remember when, how it's happened | 1:05:45 | |
and I woke up in a medical... | 1:05:50 | |
Interviewer | Facility? | 1:05:56 |
- | Medical house, they gave me IV. | 1:05:57 |
So they gave me that IV | 1:06:03 | |
and there I saw doctors and I tried to get out over there | 1:06:06 | |
so fast as I could because I know many people | 1:06:15 | |
got amputated, many body parts over there. | 1:06:17 | |
And if they ask me anything, | 1:06:20 | |
I said, "I'm very afraid that I feel well, | 1:06:23 | |
"I'm ready to go back" | 1:06:27 | |
so many people got amputated healthy body parts. | 1:06:28 | |
Interviewer | Do you know of people who actually? | 1:06:34 |
- | Yeah, yeah | 1:06:35 |
Interviewer | Could you tell me about those stories? | 1:06:36 |
- | There was, I had a neighbor he was healthy | 1:06:39 |
he had all his fingers | 1:06:49 | |
and he had the problem | 1:06:53 | |
with one finger I don't know which one. | 1:06:56 | |
It was a frostbite or something. | 1:06:58 | |
They took him to medical, | 1:07:05 | |
they gave him medication to sleep and he woke up, | 1:07:07 | |
they cut him seven or eight fingers, healthy fingers. | 1:07:13 | |
And they brought him back he was my neighbor. | 1:07:19 | |
I asked him what happen with the fingers | 1:07:21 | |
he said that they just cut it. | 1:07:22 | |
And he wasn't the only one, | 1:07:26 | |
they said, we checked during | 1:07:28 | |
your sleep and we checked, your other fingers | 1:07:31 | |
was also sick. | 1:07:34 | |
It's not true and they cut it just, | 1:07:38 | |
and there was other ones they cut this leg or arm | 1:07:41 | |
or something or hands they said you are sick you have this. | 1:07:44 | |
If somebody's sick and has to go to medical, | 1:07:49 | |
then they use a chance and-- | 1:07:52 | |
Camerawoman | Do you think the frostbite was result | 1:07:55 |
of the isolation of the cold from that? | 1:07:58 | |
- | I don't know. | 1:08:01 |
Interviewer | Did you see his hand without the fingers | 1:08:03 |
when he told you that, you saw his hand without the fingers? | 1:08:08 | |
- | How? | 1:08:12 |
Interviewer | Did you see his hand without the fingers? | 1:08:13 |
- | Yeah, of course. | 1:08:15 |
Interviewer | And so people were afraid of going | 1:08:18 |
to the doctors 'cause they thought something worse | 1:08:22 | |
could happen by going to a doctor? | 1:08:25 | |
Other people thought like you. | 1:08:26 | |
- | Many people didn't care if they was sick, | 1:08:29 |
they asked for the medic | 1:08:32 | |
but I didn't do it. | 1:08:33 | |
Interviewer | And why didn't they feed you that time | 1:08:37 |
and give you a drink? | 1:08:39 | |
What did you do that or what did they say you did | 1:08:40 | |
that they wouldn't give you any food or drink? | 1:08:43 | |
- | It was still those papers what I didn't sign. | 1:08:46 |
They asked me every time again, | 1:08:49 | |
if you agree that you are a member of Al-Qaeda | 1:08:51 | |
then we will know who you are. | 1:08:56 | |
And that's mean for us, | 1:08:59 | |
that you are just a soldier and we are soldiers | 1:09:01 | |
you are a soldier then everything is clearly | 1:09:04 | |
but if you don't know that you are a soldier, | 1:09:07 | |
and if you don't know who you are, | 1:09:11 | |
then it's make you dangerous. | 1:09:13 | |
And we need to know who you are. | 1:09:15 | |
So just tell us that you are a member it's will make you | 1:09:16 | |
it's will help you and you will get treated very different. | 1:09:23 | |
We will put you in another camp where you can have | 1:09:25 | |
everything until one day you will go home. | 1:09:28 | |
(clears throat) | 1:09:32 | |
So they want me to sign those papers, | 1:09:33 | |
they had every time those papers with them. | 1:09:35 | |
Not every time but many times they came with those papers. | 1:09:38 | |
And I said, I'm not going to sign those papers. | 1:09:42 | |
I'm not a member of Al-Qaeda, I will not agree something, | 1:09:48 | |
what I didn't did. | 1:09:52 | |
So they got angry about it every time again | 1:09:53 | |
because I myself didn't know that | 1:09:57 | |
(clears throat) | 1:10:01 | |
my case has cleared already, I didn't know. | 1:10:02 | |
They didn't told me that. | 1:10:04 | |
Beginning just three months after I got captured, | 1:10:08 | |
the American government himself said Murat Kurnaz | 1:10:12 | |
is innocent and ready to go back home to Germany | 1:10:14 | |
because the German government with no reason refused | 1:10:17 | |
to let me stay in Guantanamo | 1:10:21 | |
(clears throat) | 1:10:23 | |
and they didn't stop the interrogations. | 1:10:25 | |
They continued the interrogations | 1:10:29 | |
but it's supposed to be make everything official | 1:10:30 | |
and legal if I would sign those papers, | 1:10:35 | |
they could say, "Okay, he may got tortured or he may gotten | 1:10:38 | |
"a bad treatment because, but we know he's terrorist | 1:10:44 | |
"and he got signed himself." | 1:10:51 | |
I don't know if they could use it in real | 1:10:55 | |
if somebody under torture making you sign papers, | 1:10:58 | |
I don't know if they can use it | 1:11:02 | |
but I'm sure anyway this will help them a bit, I'm sure. | 1:11:03 | |
Interviewer | Did you did the German delegation | 1:11:11 |
ever come to you in Guantanamo? | 1:11:12 | |
- | Yeah they did. | 1:11:14 |
Interviewer | What happened there? | 1:11:15 |
- | Germans came twice to Guantanamo to interrogate me. | 1:11:17 |
It was a secret, it was very secret in Germany | 1:11:22 | |
that they came to interrogate me. | 1:11:27 | |
It was a BND and they interrogated me for two or three days | 1:11:30 | |
after then, after they went back to Germany, | 1:11:39 | |
they said we're sure that he's innocent | 1:11:42 | |
and he's not a threat against Germans, | 1:11:48 | |
Americans or the Israelis | 1:11:52 | |
And he can return back to Germany with no any risk. | 1:11:55 | |
That is what those specialist said. | 1:12:01 | |
And even after then the responsible law political, | 1:12:06 | |
his name is Frank-Walter Steinmeier he said, | 1:12:11 | |
"I don't want him back." | 1:12:17 | |
And the Americans couldn't understand why | 1:12:19 | |
they said but he got cleared by FBI, CIA. | 1:12:21 | |
I got interrogated almost international by Pakistanis, | 1:12:26 | |
by Turkish people, by Germans, FBI, CIA, everybody, | 1:12:30 | |
all of those people said we can't find anything | 1:12:35 | |
against him and we couldn't find any contact | 1:12:38 | |
between him at any terrorist groups. | 1:12:42 | |
And this man is innocent. | 1:12:44 | |
Just only Frank-Walter Steinmeier said, | 1:12:46 | |
"I don't want him back." | 1:12:48 | |
And I stayed four and half years more | 1:12:49 | |
under torture in torture camp. | 1:12:52 | |
Interviewer | Did the German delegation tell you | 1:12:57 |
that they thought you were innocent when they talked to you? | 1:12:59 | |
Did they give you any support? | 1:13:03 | |
Did they you know? | 1:13:03 | |
- | I asked them if I have the lawyer in Germany, | 1:13:05 |
they said, we don't know, | 1:13:08 | |
just relax you are on Caribbean Island. | 1:13:09 | |
And you get to your fresh foods just relax. | 1:13:12 | |
Interviewer | That's what they said to you? | 1:13:16 |
- | That's what they said. | 1:13:18 |
Interviewer | Did you have a lawyer in Germany | 1:13:19 |
at the time? | 1:13:20 | |
- | I had yes, I didn't know about it of course, | 1:13:22 |
but I had one, he was the same one which I have now. | 1:13:27 | |
Interviewer | I wanna talk about the lawyers, | 1:13:37 |
but first I wanna talk about hunger strikes. | 1:13:38 | |
Did you ever go on a hunger strike and did you know anyone | 1:13:42 | |
who did go on hunger strikes? | 1:13:44 | |
- | Yeah of course I was involved in the hunger strikes twice. | 1:13:49 |
Interviewer | Could you describe what happened? | 1:13:57 |
How you, why you did that? | 1:13:58 | |
Were you forced-fed during that time? | 1:13:59 | |
- | Yeah, do you know enteral? | 1:14:02 |
Interviewer | Yeah, yeah. | 1:14:05 |
- | Okay, I think it's something very famous in USA, right? | 1:14:07 |
Interviewer | Yeah. | 1:14:11 |
- | I mean, it's not bad it tastes good | 1:14:13 |
but it doesn't taste well | 1:14:16 | |
if you get it from the nose force-feeded. | 1:14:18 | |
The reasons why the hunger started was a different, | 1:14:26 | |
there was once there was a guy he was very sick, | 1:14:29 | |
he was close to dying if they didn't done anything. | 1:14:33 | |
They didn't want to take him to medical, | 1:14:35 | |
to give him medication. | 1:14:37 | |
And there was a man from Canada, Canadian man. | 1:14:40 | |
He arrived over there when he was 13 or 14... | 1:14:46 | |
Interviewer | Omar Khadr? | 1:14:50 |
- | Omar Khadr yeah, he arrived with 13 or 14. | 1:14:51 |
The soldiers shoot him from very, very close distance | 1:14:55 | |
with an M16 in his shoulder. | 1:15:03 | |
And he lost his one eye, | 1:15:04 | |
he can't see with the one eye | 1:15:08 | |
and he has a big hole in his shoulder. | 1:15:10 | |
He has just a skin over that hole. | 1:15:13 | |
I could, he was just in Camp four for a while, | 1:15:15 | |
I could stick my finger in his shoulder, | 1:15:20 | |
He has no bones, nothing he has a big pain | 1:15:22 | |
and his young boy so this man, | 1:15:26 | |
he needed immediately needed the medication | 1:15:33 | |
because of his pains. | 1:15:36 | |
Every time he went to interrogation | 1:15:38 | |
and he didn't tell them what they like to hear | 1:15:41 | |
they cut his medication, pain medication | 1:15:44 | |
and didn't give him any medication | 1:15:47 | |
and he didn't got any operation. | 1:15:49 | |
He needed both of them so it was big thing | 1:15:52 | |
and we would like to help this young man | 1:15:55 | |
which needs an operation. | 1:16:00 | |
We talked to the officers and everybody, | 1:16:03 | |
we said this man he has big pain and he can't survive | 1:16:05 | |
like that and he's going to die | 1:16:10 | |
and he's very young and you guys need to take care of him. | 1:16:14 | |
They said, we trying to take care about him | 1:16:19 | |
we do everything, we do our best they did nothing. | 1:16:22 | |
And like that hunger strike starts. | 1:16:28 | |
We said, we will not eat until that guy get help. | 1:16:30 | |
And for a while, it's a little bit after | 1:16:35 | |
we'd gone to hunger strike, | 1:16:39 | |
they said, "Okay, you guys can start to eat, | 1:16:41 | |
"we will take care" | 1:16:43 | |
and they took him somewhere else | 1:16:44 | |
where they didn't took care of him just we couldn't see him. | 1:16:46 | |
We couldn't know what's going on and in that time people | 1:16:49 | |
start to get force-feeded, I was one of them, | 1:16:54 | |
they put, they use especially big pipes. | 1:16:57 | |
It's cause more pain, stick it in our nose | 1:17:02 | |
and gave us enteral. | 1:17:05 | |
Interviewer | And how long were you forced-fed. | 1:17:08 |
- | Force-fed I think two or three days. | 1:17:16 |
Interviewer | And then you stopped? | 1:17:19 |
- | I stopped because I heard that people start to eat | 1:17:20 |
because I know that people start to eat. | 1:17:25 | |
Interviewer | And how do you know | 1:17:28 |
that he didn't get treatment? | 1:17:28 | |
That they cut back his pain medication | 1:17:32 | |
when he was interrogated-- | 1:17:35 | |
- | He was my neighbor we was together in Camp four. | 1:17:37 |
Interviewer | Did he told you that? | 1:17:40 |
- | Yes, of course we talk, I talk much to him. | 1:17:42 |
Interviewer | And how many people were | 1:17:49 |
in the hunger strike for him? | 1:17:50 | |
Do you think how many people joined together? | 1:17:51 | |
- | Once we used to be a 450 people on hunger strike, 450. | 1:18:01 |
That is a number from prisoners, | 1:18:12 | |
which counted and gave us a number. | 1:18:16 | |
Interviewer | Do you know when that was, | 1:18:20 |
what month or what year? | 1:18:21 | |
- | I think it was end of 2003 or middle of 2004. | 1:18:29 |
I'm not sure but should be between that time. | 1:18:36 | |
Interviewer | And then you said you went on | 1:18:39 |
a hunger strike his second time? | 1:18:40 | |
- | Yeah | 1:18:43 |
Interviewer | What happened then? | 1:18:43 |
- | I don't remember well, | 1:18:48 |
there was a many problems on that camp. | 1:18:49 | |
And so we started because of any reason | 1:18:51 | |
it was not because of myself or something | 1:18:57 | |
it was just a problem in that camp. | 1:18:59 | |
Interviewer | So what would you say there was a solidarity | 1:19:03 |
among the prisoners where they kind of worked together, | 1:19:06 | |
joined together and helped each other? | 1:19:09 | |
Is that what you're telling us? | 1:19:13 | |
That, you know, there was a community of spirit, is that? | 1:19:15 | |
- | Many times the hunger strikes start | 1:19:20 |
because people need medication. | 1:19:23 | |
So or some people even start hunger strikes | 1:19:25 | |
because the water, get us water, | 1:19:31 | |
we didn't get fresh water. | 1:19:37 | |
So gave us the, they have big engines turning | 1:19:38 | |
the sea water to drink water and they put | 1:19:45 | |
so much chlorine in it because they don't clean those tanks. | 1:19:50 | |
Interviewer | So when you were saying that the water | 1:19:56 |
had too much chlorine in it. | 1:19:58 | |
- | Not just chlorine, it's smelled also, | 1:20:02 |
it's smelled really bad and taste rusty. | 1:20:06 | |
And it has also kind of smelling of fish. | 1:20:12 | |
It was the worst water you can get. | 1:20:18 | |
I'm sure enemies wouldn't drink that water, | 1:20:21 | |
but it was our drink water if you took it | 1:20:25 | |
even you could found many small pieces in that water. | 1:20:31 | |
I don't know what it was, | 1:20:35 | |
you could find everything in that water. | 1:20:38 | |
Interviewer | So all the prisoners gathered together | 1:20:40 |
to say they're not gonna eat if they don't get fresh water? | 1:20:41 | |
- | The hunger strike with that water, | 1:20:45 |
it was not everybody's thing. | 1:20:47 | |
Some people said, I don't care I drink the water. | 1:20:50 | |
Even if it tastes bad I don't go on hunger strike | 1:20:54 | |
for that water. | 1:20:57 | |
But most of those people said, | 1:20:59 | |
that's true we should get water to drink. | 1:21:02 | |
And because it's an very hot place where you need to drink | 1:21:04 | |
lots of water and especially if you get very less to eat, | 1:21:07 | |
then you have to drink a lot of water | 1:21:13 | |
so you can stay healthy. | 1:21:14 | |
It was seeing where many people start hunger strike. | 1:21:19 | |
Interviewer | And do you remember how long you were | 1:21:24 |
on hunger strike that time? | 1:21:27 | |
- | I don't remember, I think it was 10 or seven days. | 1:21:31 |
Interviewer | When you went, | 1:21:38 |
how many times a day would you be forced-fed | 1:21:39 | |
when you went on hunger strike, | 1:21:42 | |
would it be just once or two times or three times? | 1:21:44 | |
- | The force feeding started, | 1:21:49 |
most of the times they would start with force feeding. | 1:21:53 | |
The first hunger strike they started by seven to 10 days, | 1:21:56 | |
they start with force feeding | 1:22:02 | |
but later they understood that they can more | 1:22:04 | |
that we can more, | 1:22:08 | |
they start to force feed after 15 days. | 1:22:10 | |
Interviewer | And would you get force-fed | 1:22:14 |
one time a day or more than one time a day? | 1:22:17 | |
How would it work? | 1:22:20 | |
- | They did it thrice or more than thrice. | 1:22:22 |
Interviewer | A day? | 1:22:26 |
- | Yeah, we don't have the time, you know | 1:22:27 |
in Guantanamo we checking the time only by daylight | 1:22:32 | |
and night time so and if during those time you pass out | 1:22:35 | |
you can't know the time exactly | 1:22:43 | |
but it was around thrice a day, thrice or four... | 1:22:46 | |
I think with the enteral, they did it thrice | 1:22:49 | |
and they gave me also IV. | 1:22:55 | |
Interviewer | As well. | 1:22:58 |
- | Yeah that was what they did here with me. | 1:22:59 |
But I don't know what other ones maybe they do it | 1:23:03 | |
by body weight or something I don't know | 1:23:05 | |
if you are very skinny or if you made more extra, | 1:23:07 | |
I don't know. | 1:23:09 | |
Interviewer | Were you alone when you were force-fed | 1:23:11 |
or were the other people next to you at the same time? | 1:23:12 | |
- | Once there was other ones next to me, | 1:23:16 |
we was on stretch. | 1:23:19 | |
They took me to medical place where they made a place ready | 1:23:21 | |
for force feeding, there was special, | 1:23:24 | |
special chairs for force feeding | 1:23:31 | |
special made for force feeding | 1:23:33 | |
where they can hold your hands, legs and everything. | 1:23:35 | |
You can't move, specially made just for force feeding. | 1:23:38 | |
There I had a couple of other ones next to me | 1:23:44 | |
and the other one other time I was alone in my cell | 1:23:48 | |
Where they use force feeding, they had stretchs | 1:23:55 | |
where they could tie my hands and legs. | 1:23:59 | |
Interviewer | So sometimes you were forced-fed in a cell | 1:24:01 |
and sometimes you were forced-- | 1:24:04 | |
- | It's a special cell made for it. | 1:24:06 |
It's where they can put you on a stretch | 1:24:09 | |
with belts for your legs and hands. | 1:24:15 | |
Interviewer | And when you had other men next to you, | 1:24:19 |
could you talk to them? | 1:24:21 | |
- | During the hunger strike? | 1:24:24 |
Interviewer | During the force feeding. | 1:24:25 |
- | During the force feeding you can't talk. | 1:24:28 |
Interviewer | No? | 1:24:29 |
- | No and where they did the force feedings, | 1:24:30 |
you don't have neighbors close to you. | 1:24:35 | |
They separate people who is eating and not eating | 1:24:40 | |
because they didn't want, they mixed it up. | 1:24:44 | |
They didn't want people eating | 1:24:52 | |
that they start with the hunger strike. | 1:24:53 | |
And sometimes where they know this man is every time | 1:24:55 | |
eating never doing hunger strikes, | 1:24:58 | |
those people they put them between people | 1:25:00 | |
doing hunger strikes so he eats next to you | 1:25:03 | |
and maybe you will start to eat. | 1:25:07 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see anybody try | 1:25:12 |
to commit suicide or did you ever try to commit suicide? | 1:25:14 | |
- | Suicide, no. | 1:25:18 |
Interviewer | Did you ever see anybody try | 1:25:20 |
to commit suicide? | 1:25:21 | |
- | No, I hear about it but I never saw. | 1:25:25 |
I heard about it. | 1:25:32 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe what happened | 1:25:35 |
when the Red Cross came to you in Guantanamo with, how they, | 1:25:37 | |
what did they do when you had met with them? | 1:25:41 | |
- | They done every time, the same thing, | 1:25:44 |
I asked them many questions | 1:25:46 | |
and they answered all my questions with the same answer. | 1:25:48 | |
We can't tell you, we can't give it out, we can't do that. | 1:25:52 | |
Interviewer | Could they bring letters from home for you? | 1:25:58 |
- | Some people got postcards from their own families | 1:26:03 |
from Red Cross, | 1:26:09 | |
I didn't get anything from Red Cross | 1:26:10 | |
but I know that my family wrote, | 1:26:13 | |
have written postcards by Red Cross. | 1:26:17 | |
I got just one letter from my family. | 1:26:21 | |
I received one letter from my family. | 1:26:26 | |
It wasn't by Red Cross it as was a regular letter. | 1:26:29 | |
They give it to me shortly before I got released, | 1:26:33 | |
it was already two or four years old that letter, | 1:26:37 | |
it was the only letter I got from my family. | 1:26:41 | |
It was five years later. | 1:26:44 | |
Interviewer | Did your treatment get any better over time | 1:26:47 |
from the time you first arrived in Guantanamo | 1:26:50 | |
as the years went on did they treat you any better | 1:26:53 | |
or was it the same until you were released? | 1:26:56 | |
- | It didn't get better just, before I got released, | 1:27:06 |
they put me in Camp four where I could eat more food. | 1:27:09 | |
So I put on weight on | 1:27:14 | |
and it's where look you, make you look | 1:27:18 | |
healthier if you want to go back home. | 1:27:23 | |
So it's-- | 1:27:26 | |
Interviewer | If you had to describe the worst experience | 1:27:28 |
you had in Guantanamo, is it possible to describe something | 1:27:31 | |
that would be the worst? | 1:27:34 | |
- | Yes, of course the worst thing was | 1:27:38 |
to see handicapped people how they get beaten up | 1:27:44 | |
or the young people, | 1:27:50 | |
14 years old young kids getting beaten up | 1:27:52 | |
they're barely from special troops F team. | 1:27:57 | |
That was for me worse than myself got beaten up. | 1:28:05 | |
I'm a man, I can get beaten up, I can survive or not. | 1:28:12 | |
It's it's not so important | 1:28:20 | |
but if people 13, 14 years old get beaten up | 1:28:22 | |
it's very bad | 1:28:27 | |
and you just can watch at them and can't do anything. | 1:28:29 | |
And it was the same thing I have to say | 1:28:33 | |
that the youngest one was nine years old. | 1:28:36 | |
The youngest one was nine years old, | 1:28:39 | |
the second youngest one, he was 12 and many kids 14. | 1:28:40 | |
I myself was 19 when I arrived. | 1:28:49 | |
Between nine and 105, there was one Afghani guy | 1:28:56 | |
he was 105 years old, | 1:28:59 | |
he couldn't see, he couldn't hear, he was very old | 1:29:05 | |
and every time guards came, | 1:29:08 | |
told him something to do. | 1:29:09 | |
And he didn't even if he could hear, | 1:29:10 | |
he can't understand English but he couldn't hear and see. | 1:29:13 | |
And they said, you are not following our rules | 1:29:18 | |
and he got beaten up. | 1:29:27 | |
Interviewer | Did you see that happen? | 1:29:29 |
- | Yeah with that old guy I saw it. | 1:29:32 |
It was worse for me to see something like that | 1:29:36 | |
because he's somebody he needs help, | 1:29:38 | |
he can't protect himself even if he don't get beaten up, | 1:29:44 | |
it's for him anyway very difficult to live over there. | 1:29:50 | |
He can't go to the bathroom with no help, | 1:29:54 | |
he can't do anything with no help. | 1:29:57 | |
So he was there and he got beaten up, | 1:29:58 | |
it was very bad situation for him. | 1:30:04 | |
Every time if, I tried to look at somewhere else | 1:30:07 | |
because I couldn't do anything. | 1:30:14 | |
Interviewer | Did this, the prisoners | 1:30:16 |
ever say to the guards that man is 105 years old. | 1:30:19 | |
Why you... | 1:30:21 | |
- | They did know about him, | 1:30:22 |
all the guards know about him. | 1:30:25 | |
Some new guards when they came they said, | 1:30:26 | |
"Is that the man 105 years?" | 1:30:28 | |
They said, he looks younger, he looks not so old. | 1:30:32 | |
Interviewer | So did you ever, | 1:30:40 |
I wanna go back to the medical care for a moment. | 1:30:47 | |
Did you ever see a dentist while you were there? | 1:30:49 | |
- | I had the tooth pain when I arrived. | 1:30:53 |
I had tooth pain in Pakistan it wasn't so at worst, | 1:30:56 | |
it wasn't so bad but during my time in Guantanamo, | 1:31:00 | |
during the time it got worst so I asked for a dentist | 1:31:04 | |
and the problem is | 1:31:12 | |
if you ask for something the interrogators | 1:31:14 | |
are the first ones knows about it. | 1:31:17 | |
And they're trying to use that situation. | 1:31:19 | |
If you are an interrogation and say, | 1:31:22 | |
"Hi, I'm your new interrogator, I came just from... | 1:31:23 | |
"I don't know where in USA." | 1:31:30 | |
They say," I heard about you and came from USA to help you, | 1:31:31 | |
"I'm just here for your case and if you work close to me, | 1:31:36 | |
"I will get you out to very fast." | 1:31:41 | |
And he said, "I heard also you have a tooth pain. | 1:31:43 | |
"I can help you just, I need a bit help from you, | 1:31:47 | |
"you need to help me answer a couple of questions | 1:31:51 | |
"and if we can work each other, | 1:31:54 | |
"then I can help you, you can help me." | 1:31:58 | |
It was always the same thing and after three years, | 1:32:02 | |
I tried to get a dentist, I stopped to ask | 1:32:08 | |
because I don't know if there was a dentist. | 1:32:13 | |
Interviewer | You never saw the dentist? | 1:32:19 |
- | I never saw a dentist | 1:32:20 |
but I hear that there was a dentist. | 1:32:21 | |
I don't know if he was there or not. | 1:32:25 | |
But some people went to a medical and he pulled them | 1:32:26 | |
a couple of teeth out. | 1:32:30 | |
And I tried three years to get a dentist, to see a dentist. | 1:32:32 | |
Interviewer | And each time they wouldn't let | 1:32:37 |
you see a dentist, why not? | 1:32:39 | |
- | It's a good point where, what they can use against you. | 1:32:46 |
So if you are healthy then you will not need anything. | 1:32:52 | |
But if you need something then the interrogator | 1:32:56 | |
if you give him something, what he likes to get, | 1:33:01 | |
then he can make you get a dentist, | 1:33:04 | |
he can make, yeah so | 1:33:07 | |
but how I said they wanted me sign | 1:33:12 | |
those papers and then I would get the dentist, | 1:33:15 | |
I guess, I'm sure | 1:33:19 | |
if I would make myself if I will agree | 1:33:23 | |
that I am a terrorist and I won't get a dentist, yeah. | 1:33:26 | |
Interviewer | Did they ever ask you to spy for them? | 1:33:31 |
- | Yes the Germans when they came, | 1:33:34 |
the Americans, the American Military, | 1:33:37 | |
they asked me to work for them as spy. | 1:33:43 | |
If I would get released one day, | 1:33:46 | |
if I would work for them in Germany as spy, | 1:33:49 | |
they asked me that and when the Germans came | 1:33:54 | |
they said we heard that you want work with Americans | 1:33:58 | |
together, why not with Germans? | 1:34:02 | |
I said, I didn't agree with Americans | 1:34:06 | |
that I work with them, why I should do it with you? | 1:34:09 | |
They said, "If you do that we can get you out here." | 1:34:14 | |
Interviewer | How would you spy? | 1:34:21 |
What did they want you to do? | 1:34:22 | |
- | I think basic stuff like to go between a couple of people | 1:34:26 |
and to do, like if you want to be one of them, | 1:34:33 | |
learn from them and say, "Hey, what you are going to do? | 1:34:39 | |
"What you are planning?" | 1:34:44 | |
I don't know, I am not a spy I don't know | 1:34:46 | |
what they do everything but... | 1:34:49 | |
Interviewer | Where would they have sent you, | 1:34:52 |
to what country to spy? | 1:34:53 | |
- | Around the world I guess I don't know | 1:35:00 |
because they know I speak English, German, Turkish, Uzbekish | 1:35:02 | |
and Arabic they could use me, | 1:35:06 | |
they could need me as a spy. | 1:35:10 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see a psychologist | 1:35:15 |
while you were in Guantanamo? | 1:35:17 | |
- | Yes, I saw some. | 1:35:21 |
Interviewer | And why did you see a psychologist? | 1:35:22 |
- | They came sometimes next to my neighbors | 1:35:25 |
and they took them. | 1:35:30 | |
They picked them up and took them to a camp | 1:35:32 | |
where they keep people which should be, | 1:35:37 | |
have any psychological problems. | 1:35:41 | |
It's just another place to torture people. | 1:35:43 | |
Interviewer | You never went to that? | 1:35:46 |
- | No, but they, how you say, they threatened me | 1:35:48 |
to put me in there. | 1:35:58 | |
[Interviewer] Why? | 1:36:01 | |
- | It was my interrogator say it, | 1:36:02 |
they said you are lying, | 1:36:04 | |
you don't tell us the truth. | 1:36:05 | |
And if not, if you don't talk to us we will put you there | 1:36:06 | |
and I will give you to the psych | 1:36:10 | |
if the psychs visits you once then you are lost. | 1:36:13 | |
You know what I get back also that it's a bad place. | 1:36:18 | |
Some people went over there. I know. | 1:36:21 | |
Interviewer | Can you describe what you heard | 1:36:24 |
about that place? | 1:36:26 | |
- | People getting locked on the floor | 1:36:28 |
with he hands and feet like this, | 1:36:32 | |
you have handcuffs and shackles and there's a place | 1:36:35 | |
on the floor they locked you up like this | 1:36:39 | |
and you can't sit or stand up. | 1:36:42 | |
They do it 12 hours a day and then they move you in | 1:36:44 | |
another cell sound so where you can't harm yourself, | 1:36:48 | |
you can't talk to anybody, nothing. | 1:36:56 | |
And they talked to as you would be really sick. | 1:36:58 | |
The psych comes to you and how you want kill yourself, | 1:37:01 | |
how you tried to kill yourself even he never did. | 1:37:07 | |
And even if he says, "I never did that | 1:37:10 | |
"and I don't want to do that," | 1:37:12 | |
they coming out of time and asking him those questions. | 1:37:13 | |
So then and you are not authorized to see anybody else | 1:37:17 | |
because you are sick. | 1:37:27 | |
Interviewer | Were you're afraid that can happen to you? | 1:37:30 |
- | It was possible if they will decide to put me over there, | 1:37:35 |
they would do it, | 1:37:40 | |
I couldn't do anything against it | 1:37:42 | |
but I never asked to put me over there. | 1:37:45 | |
I never asked them. | 1:37:49 | |
Interviewer | So overall, how do you think you coped | 1:37:50 |
in Guantanamo with, it sounds to like if you were | 1:37:53 | |
in isolation so often and no one was really helping you, | 1:37:55 | |
what kept you going? | 1:37:59 | |
What kept your attitude and your strength? | 1:38:00 | |
What do you think kept you going? | 1:38:06 | |
- | In our religion Islam it's very important | 1:38:12 |
to never or lose your hope and to never give up. | 1:38:15 | |
So it's a very important point | 1:38:21 | |
and you should not see the world like that | 1:38:25 | |
how a couple of people trying to show it to you, | 1:38:34 | |
so that is not the real world, | 1:38:38 | |
but that is what's happened on the real world. | 1:38:43 | |
So you are there but you can say it can change. | 1:38:45 | |
I'm here forever, you can't say that in our religion, | 1:38:50 | |
you can say whole my life will end like that. | 1:38:54 | |
You can say that because we don't know the future. | 1:38:57 | |
And that's why I know its not right to lose my hope | 1:39:01 | |
and I never gave up. | 1:39:06 | |
And in Quran and our holy book, Quran there's written | 1:39:09 | |
the story of the Prophet Youssef, his whole life is written | 1:39:17 | |
in the Quran and he was also as a young man, | 1:39:23 | |
he's getting in imprisonment even he's innocent. | 1:39:28 | |
And he's getting, treatment bad even if he's innocent. | 1:39:32 | |
And one day he comes back out | 1:39:39 | |
and he reads a lot of big things | 1:39:43 | |
and he's felling back again | 1:39:46 | |
and he's finding his family back. | 1:39:49 | |
So there are many stories in the Quran from the past | 1:39:51 | |
real stories it's helping you. | 1:39:56 | |
My religion helped me of course. | 1:40:01 | |
My religion helped me a lot. | 1:40:06 | |
Interviewer | Did speaking to other detainees help you? | 1:40:08 |
Did they give you confidence or support? | 1:40:11 | |
- | No. | 1:40:15 |
Interviewer | No? | 1:40:16 |
Could you tell us about the lawyers how you first got | 1:40:20 | |
to have a lawyer and if the lawyers helped you | 1:40:24 | |
and if you trusted the lawyers and how that work? | 1:40:27 | |
'Cause when you first met lawyers, | 1:40:31 | |
were they were there to help you and did you?-- | 1:40:35 | |
- | I will say something also | 1:40:37 |
to the question before. | 1:40:43 | |
Interviewer | Oh, okay. | 1:40:44 |
- | There's also the life of a Prophet Abraham in the Quran, | 1:40:46 |
his life and there was many things what I took | 1:40:53 | |
about the life of Prophet Youssef and Prophet Abraham | 1:40:57 | |
from the Quran, | 1:41:00 | |
it was very similar with my case. | 1:41:01 | |
Some situations with Prophet Yuossef | 1:41:04 | |
and some situations with Prophet Abraham was similar | 1:41:07 | |
to with what was happening to me. | 1:41:09 | |
And I'm trying to say if there are those things happened | 1:41:13 | |
to prophets I'm nobody | 1:41:19 | |
it's can happen to me also, of course, | 1:41:23 | |
it was happening in the past | 1:41:26 | |
and it's still happening today. | 1:41:28 | |
Nothing has changed so also I'll survive to come out | 1:41:31 | |
and tell the people how the real democratic countries | 1:41:39 | |
are working and really what they doing behind the, | 1:41:44 | |
how we say behind there... | 1:41:49 | |
Interviewer | Walls? | 1:41:51 |
- | Behind the walls what they do in real | 1:41:52 |
it was for me very important to talk about it | 1:41:53 | |
because I myself don't need to talk about it | 1:41:56 | |
because I saw everything I know how it's work, | 1:41:59 | |
I could keep it for myself | 1:42:03 | |
but to make something for the future | 1:42:05 | |
that people can take care of what is in the future. | 1:42:10 | |
It's very important to stay alive, | 1:42:14 | |
come out and talk about it for other ones not for me. | 1:42:17 | |
It's very important. | 1:42:21 | |
Interviewer | Could you tell me the stories from Abraham | 1:42:23 |
that are like you, | 1:42:28 | |
that inspired you? | 1:42:29 | |
- | Prophet Abraham he got taken off all his clothes | 1:42:32 |
by people who didn't believe him. | 1:42:38 | |
And he was naked, | 1:42:41 | |
he was naked and they throw him in fire | 1:42:44 | |
they try to burn him and I guess he was walking around | 1:42:47 | |
the streets to the fire everybody watched him, | 1:42:55 | |
he was naked. | 1:42:59 | |
And after then they throw them in fire. | 1:43:00 | |
And many times they took off our clothes also | 1:43:06 | |
because they thought we are bad people | 1:43:10 | |
and bad people you can treat them, how do you like to, | 1:43:14 | |
so example to this one was similar. | 1:43:17 | |
His whole life is just something where people could take | 1:43:27 | |
an example for his own life. | 1:43:31 | |
Interviewer | So that was inspiring for you | 1:43:34 |
that gave you strength knowing those stories? | 1:43:36 | |
- | Yes, of course, yeah and also the life | 1:43:40 |
of Prophet Jesus written in the Quran, | 1:43:46 | |
and also his life is giving strength to people. | 1:43:52 | |
To me he was most poor prophet between the prophets | 1:43:58 | |
and he never wanted to give up his works. | 1:44:10 | |
And even they tried to kill him even they treated him bad. | 1:44:13 | |
He never give up his work. | 1:44:19 | |
Interviewer | So did you think while you were in prison | 1:44:27 |
that you would write a book to tell your story, | 1:44:30 | |
did you feel that you were thinking while you were there | 1:44:32 | |
that you were gonna do this when you got out | 1:44:36 | |
at the end of that? | 1:44:39 | |
- | It wasn't for me important to write the book, | 1:44:47 |
the book wasn't important for me, | 1:44:49 | |
it was just important to let know the people | 1:44:50 | |
what's going on that was important. | 1:44:53 | |
But after I came out and start the interviews, | 1:44:59 | |
I understood that many people don't know | 1:45:07 | |
what's going on in real, what's happening in real. | 1:45:11 | |
And even when I have big interviews | 1:45:14 | |
and a couple of magazines, | 1:45:16 | |
it's not enough to put everything in. | 1:45:19 | |
So it's not clearly for the people. | 1:45:21 | |
They don't know how it was that, how it was this. | 1:45:24 | |
And they have so much questions after I got released, | 1:45:28 | |
I did many, many interviews, TV interviews, | 1:45:32 | |
magazine interviews, newspapers, | 1:45:35 | |
I talked to people in public | 1:45:37 | |
but you cant reach everybody his questions | 1:45:40 | |
by that, by that way. | 1:45:43 | |
So I decided to write a book | 1:45:45 | |
because in a book you can write much more with details. | 1:45:49 | |
It was important to write a book. | 1:45:54 | |
So I didn't want write the book shortly | 1:45:56 | |
after I got released | 1:46:00 | |
but I didn't have another opportunity. | 1:46:00 | |
It was important people was asking for it so I did the just. | 1:46:06 | |
I took the time, I spent less time for my family. | 1:46:11 | |
I took more time for the book and did it. | 1:46:16 | |
Especially after many years of torture, | 1:46:22 | |
you like to have time for your own self, | 1:46:25 | |
with your family and probably privately things | 1:46:28 | |
what you like to do. | 1:46:31 | |
But I understood how many things got hided | 1:46:35 | |
by like the German government from the public. | 1:46:40 | |
And I understand how important it is. | 1:46:45 | |
Interviewer | Did your opinion of the German government | 1:46:49 |
change from before you went to Guantanamo and afterwards? | 1:46:51 | |
You know, now did it change? | 1:46:58 | |
I mean, did you have a different opinion | 1:47:01 | |
of the German government before this happened? | 1:47:03 | |
- | They doing still on the same way | 1:47:07 |
what they did in the past, | 1:47:13 | |
they saying it was the right way | 1:47:15 | |
and we will do the same. | 1:47:19 | |
We will react in the same way for any future, | 1:47:21 | |
if something will happen in the same, | 1:47:24 | |
same way to somebody else. | 1:47:26 | |
And that is for me the big problem, | 1:47:29 | |
what's happened to me they can't make change, | 1:47:32 | |
even if they want to come back and apologize for it | 1:47:34 | |
or whatever they will do it can't make go away. | 1:47:38 | |
So what's happened to me it's happened it's in the past | 1:47:43 | |
but I'm going in public and talking so they will not do | 1:47:47 | |
those kinds of mistakes in future. | 1:47:52 | |
And that is the point, | 1:47:55 | |
the German responsible political Frank-Walter Steinmeier | 1:47:57 | |
he said what he did was fine. | 1:48:00 | |
And in future is something will happen again like that. | 1:48:03 | |
He will react in the same way. | 1:48:07 | |
And that is dangerous if political | 1:48:09 | |
supporting torture if it's directly or not, | 1:48:17 | |
he's supporting torture and he knows I got tortured | 1:48:22 | |
and he knows what he did wrong. | 1:48:25 | |
And if he says in future same way, | 1:48:29 | |
it's dangerous, that is how I think. | 1:48:32 | |
Interviewer | I don't have too many questions left, | 1:48:37 |
but I did wanna just ask you about the lawyers | 1:48:39 | |
and a couple more questions, | 1:48:42 | |
but I know that you did finally get to meet a lawyer | 1:48:43 | |
in Guantanamo but could you tell us a little | 1:48:48 | |
about that how that happened? | 1:48:50 | |
And if you trusted the lawyers when they came | 1:48:53 | |
and if the US government ever interfered | 1:48:56 | |
with your use of a lawyer? | 1:49:00 | |
(clears throat) | 1:49:05 | |
- | They never told me that I have a lawyer. | 1:49:06 |
Interviewer | They never told? | 1:49:09 |
- | No, just one day the escort team came, | 1:49:10 |
picked me up, brought me to Camp Echo | 1:49:14 | |
and I saw the interrogator will come to interrogate me | 1:49:18 | |
and they came a man with civilian clothes, | 1:49:25 | |
some of the interrogators anyway in civilian clothes. | 1:49:30 | |
And he told me, "I'm your lawyer." | 1:49:34 | |
I said, "Okay," and he said, | 1:49:37 | |
"I came here to help you, whatever." | 1:49:43 | |
I told him, if you want to help me | 1:49:48 | |
then you have to get me coffee. | 1:49:50 | |
So next day I told him, "If you get me coffee, | 1:49:53 | |
"I will take you as a lawyer." | 1:49:56 | |
Wasn't matter for me if he's a lawyer or not, | 1:49:58 | |
doesn't make anything changed for me. | 1:50:01 | |
Just I would get the coffee. | 1:50:04 | |
He said, "Okay, next day I will get the coffee." | 1:50:06 | |
The next morning, he came with a big cup of coffee | 1:50:08 | |
from McDonald's and with apple pie. | 1:50:10 | |
And after I drank the coffee with a lot of sugar, | 1:50:17 | |
I said, "You are a good lawyer, I will take you." | 1:50:21 | |
And I was sure he could be interrogator or lawyer | 1:50:24 | |
because there are many games going on in Guantanamo, | 1:50:29 | |
interrogators coming as Red Cross or lawyer or whatever. | 1:50:34 | |
And I didn't have anything to hide. | 1:50:38 | |
So I was talking to anyway to all interrogators, | 1:50:42 | |
if he would be interrogator, I will talk to him anyway. | 1:50:46 | |
So if he says I'm a lawyer and he's interrogator | 1:50:48 | |
I will talk to him and I did | 1:50:53 | |
but he was a real lawyer. | 1:50:55 | |
In some other cases, | 1:51:00 | |
people got visits by interrogators. | 1:51:02 | |
They represented themselves as lawyers | 1:51:05 | |
and they wasn't lawyers | 1:51:10 | |
Interviewer | They told you that? | 1:51:12 |
- | It's happened in some cases, | 1:51:14 |
some people they went to Camp Echo | 1:51:15 | |
after some people get real visits from lawyers, | 1:51:20 | |
they start to use that situation and came as lawyers. | 1:51:23 | |
Interviewer | Did the government have until tell you | 1:51:29 |
your lawyers were Jewish or that they were Jewish lawyers | 1:51:30 | |
and you shouldn't trust them or anything like that? | 1:51:34 | |
- | I don't have any problems with Jewish people. | 1:51:36 |
I don't have any problems with Jewish people. | 1:51:40 | |
If my lawyer would be Jewish, I will talk to him. | 1:51:43 | |
I have today many Jewish friends | 1:51:45 | |
and Jewish people are not animals. | 1:51:48 | |
They're humans like everybody else | 1:51:53 | |
so they can't make anything change on it. | 1:51:54 | |
They told me stuff like that. | 1:52:00 | |
Interviewer | They did? | 1:52:01 |
they said, working with Jewish people together. | 1:52:02 | |
My lawyer is Arabic man so they can't say he's Jewish, | 1:52:06 | |
I won't believe it. | 1:52:09 | |
But they said they working with Jewish people together. | 1:52:10 | |
And they coming from Jewish companies, | 1:52:13 | |
they told me many things of course, | 1:52:16 | |
I don't care, I mean, what's the problem. | 1:52:20 | |
If you would be Jewish men its okay. | 1:52:24 | |
Interviewer | So how did you, | 1:52:27 |
could you describe how you finally | 1:52:28 | |
got released from Guantanamo? | 1:52:30 | |
How that happened? | 1:52:31 | |
- | How I got through released? | 1:52:32 |
Interviewer | Yeah what had happened? | 1:52:34 |
How did it finally happen that you were released? | 1:52:35 | |
Did the lawyer help you get released | 1:52:39 | |
or did something else happen? | 1:52:41 | |
- | My lawyer tried too many things to get me out of course. | 1:52:47 |
But the real point is that 2002 the American government | 1:52:50 | |
himself got cleared that I'm innocent | 1:52:55 | |
and asked the German government just to pick me up | 1:52:58 | |
and bring him back home to Germany. | 1:53:02 | |
So I was an innocent man who I want could come | 1:53:07 | |
and pick me up. | 1:53:11 | |
And four and half years later, | 1:53:14 | |
Angela Merkel, President of Germany. | 1:53:18 | |
She decided to make a good name | 1:53:22 | |
and went to W. Bush and asked him, | 1:53:28 | |
"Can I get more at Murat Kurnaz?" | 1:53:32 | |
And he said okay well, | 1:53:35 | |
because I was anyway innocent so I was just waiting for. | 1:53:36 | |
Interviewer | And could you describe how | 1:53:41 |
when you left Guantanamo did anything change just | 1:53:44 | |
before you left and your treatment and... | 1:53:48 | |
- | During that time everything got worst | 1:53:51 |
during those five years, | 1:53:54 | |
everything got worst, | 1:53:56 | |
it was very bad on the beginning. | 1:53:57 | |
During this time it got always safer for the guards. | 1:54:03 | |
And if it's safer for the guards, | 1:54:08 | |
it's means more security and more searchings | 1:54:09 | |
and less freedom, that's mean more security | 1:54:16 | |
for the guards or safety for I don't know for whoever. | 1:54:21 | |
So that's mean worst for us and during the time, | 1:54:26 | |
if somebody tried to, try to beat a guard | 1:54:32 | |
or he did beat the guard, | 1:54:36 | |
they changed the rules and said, "We will change this | 1:54:39 | |
"for safety and this, and this, and this." | 1:54:44 | |
It got always worse then for us. | 1:54:48 | |
Interviewer | And just before you left Guantanamo, | 1:54:51 |
was it any better for you then? | 1:54:53 | |
- | No, I was during that time, I was in Camp four, | 1:54:55 |
but in Camp four there was shootings going on. | 1:55:00 | |
There was fighting between prisoners and the guards, | 1:55:04 | |
they shoot with M16 plastic rubber bullets. | 1:55:10 | |
Interviewer | You saw them shoot prisoners | 1:55:17 |
with plastic bullets? | 1:55:20 | |
- | Yes, yes of course many people got injured. | 1:55:21 |
They shoot from very short distance. | 1:55:23 | |
Interviewer | Why would they shoot them? | 1:55:26 |
- | There was a problem with one prisoner. | 1:55:30 |
They said, he said, he's he wants to beat up a guard | 1:55:33 | |
or something I don't know. | 1:55:39 | |
They want to search his cell | 1:55:40 | |
and they would bring him to an isolation | 1:55:44 | |
and he refused something and something like that. | 1:55:48 | |
Interviewer | Did you see them shoot him. | 1:55:55 |
Or you heard they shot him? | 1:55:56 | |
- | Yes, I saw it I was in Camp four, | 1:55:58 |
I saw them shooting. | 1:56:00 | |
They shoot 40 people, 40 to 50. | 1:56:04 | |
Interviewer | Did they then go to see the doctor, | 1:56:11 |
what happened to them? | 1:56:14 | |
- | They should go with the plastic bullets, | 1:56:15 |
it's don't kill you but I can make you injured | 1:56:18 | |
very, very badly but does not kill you. | 1:56:23 | |
Interviewer | And do you know if they went to the doctor | 1:56:27 |
after they were shot? | 1:56:29 | |
- | I don't know exactly after that they spread all us | 1:56:30 |
in isolation so that is how they work. | 1:56:33 | |
If something has happened to stop that problem, | 1:56:38 | |
or whatever, they separate everybody | 1:56:42 | |
so you can't communicate with those people | 1:56:46 | |
and you don't know what's happened. | 1:56:48 | |
And what is he doing if they started hunger strike | 1:56:50 | |
or if they try to fight? | 1:56:52 | |
You don't know anything, | 1:56:54 | |
you are separated so you have to calm. | 1:56:55 | |
That is a system what they use in all prisons | 1:56:59 | |
so it's all system. | 1:57:02 | |
Interviewer | So could you describe when you went home | 1:57:05 |
to Guantanamo how that was like. | 1:57:06 | |
I mean home from Guantanamo when you went back to Germany. | 1:57:10 | |
- | I didn't know where I was going to | 1:57:14 |
they didn't told me anything. | 1:57:15 | |
One day they came with a civilian clothes from Bob Barker. | 1:57:18 | |
You know, the factory Bob Barker, | 1:57:23 | |
Interviewer | No. | 1:57:24 |
- | They're doing prison clothes, | 1:57:26 |
clothes for prisoners in USA | 1:57:29 | |
and we got the same clothes, in orange, gray or white. | 1:57:32 | |
And they have the same ones in regular jeans, jeans blue. | 1:57:40 | |
So that is also once if you were in USA, a prisoner, | 1:57:45 | |
you would leave that prison you would get those clothes. | 1:57:47 | |
It's the same thing that you gave for us. | 1:57:51 | |
One day they came with jeans, jacket and pants, | 1:57:53 | |
and white tee shirt. | 1:57:57 | |
They throw over the fence that you have to wear it on. | 1:57:59 | |
They didn't told me why and what's going on. | 1:58:03 | |
So I wear it on, I said, | 1:58:09 | |
"I'm going somewhere to the prisoners I don't know | 1:58:13 | |
"if I will come back." | 1:58:15 | |
I said, goodbye and... | 1:58:17 | |
Interviewer | You didn't know you were going home. | 1:58:21 |
No one had told you you were going home? | 1:58:23 | |
- | No, it was just, no I didn't know | 1:58:25 |
if I'm going home or not | 1:58:29 | |
because in many situations even if people got told | 1:58:31 | |
that they go home, | 1:58:34 | |
they put them in the plane, | 1:58:36 | |
they fly around in Guantanamo a bit and came back down | 1:58:38 | |
and said, "You are not authorized to leave Guantanamo | 1:58:42 | |
"because your government don't want you back." | 1:58:45 | |
It's all just psychological game, they worked. | 1:58:47 | |
Guantanamo is not a prison it's a torture camp. | 1:58:53 | |
And they work very close with psychological people together. | 1:58:57 | |
And they, everything what they do it's professional. | 1:59:02 | |
It's not just like that, | 1:59:11 | |
that they come in your cell and beat you up and go away. | 1:59:12 | |
It's not like that everything is professional. | 1:59:15 | |
Okay, they getting special training for it. | 1:59:18 | |
How to make you sick, | 1:59:21 | |
how to make you feel bad. | 1:59:24 | |
So if you, somebody gets tortured for many years, | 1:59:27 | |
living in a small cage with very less food for many years, | 1:59:31 | |
with no contact with your family, | 1:59:35 | |
with no knowing anything about your own case. | 1:59:38 | |
And then they will come and say, | 1:59:42 | |
"Hey, you are going home a free man." | 1:59:45 | |
You will be very happy of course. | 1:59:48 | |
And they put you in plane flying around Guantanamo | 1:59:51 | |
coming back saying you are not going home. | 1:59:56 | |
So you will lose all your hope. | 1:59:58 | |
And maybe you will lose all your hope | 2:00:02 | |
and maybe you will get sick. | 2:00:06 | |
Maybe you will have problem to understand the world. | 2:00:08 | |
So I know it's a bad situation. | 2:00:15 | |
That's why I know it said, even if I'm on a plane | 2:00:19 | |
flying on the plane, | 2:00:22 | |
I will not say that I'm going home. | 2:00:23 | |
I would just believe it if I'm at home. | 2:00:25 | |
So that's why I didn't say, yeah I'm going home. | 2:00:27 | |
Interviewer | So when they took you out of this cell | 2:00:32 |
with your new clothes, | 2:00:34 | |
what did they do? | 2:00:36 | |
Where did they take you? | 2:00:37 | |
- | They close my eyes first, ear protection, | 2:00:39 |
they give me mask, | 2:00:42 | |
they gave me goggles and mask, ear protection. | 2:00:44 | |
And put me in a safety car. | 2:00:48 | |
It's a special built a van where you can sit just | 2:00:52 | |
two people down, it's a very big van. | 2:01:01 | |
Just they did it so strong with a metal. | 2:01:03 | |
It's bulletproof and it's also rockets proof for the RPGs, | 2:01:08 | |
you can't destroy that car. | 2:01:18 | |
If somebody wants to take you out with or something. | 2:01:20 | |
So it's just a piece of Hollywood. | 2:01:23 | |
So they close my eyes and everything put me in that car. | 2:01:27 | |
They locked me in that car I couldn't move. | 2:01:33 | |
So the flight we went with that one and a ship. | 2:01:35 | |
And then to the airplane, airplane place, airbase, airport. | 2:01:42 | |
We went to the airport and there was a plane waiting for me, | 2:01:53 | |
15 guards, 15 soldiers was watching me. | 2:01:56 | |
I was the only prisoner in that plane. | 2:02:03 | |
and there was 15 soldiers with weapons watching me. | 2:02:05 | |
Even if I could move, I couldn't do anything. | 2:02:14 | |
I wasn't authorized to go to this bathroom, nothing. | 2:02:18 | |
Just a long flight straight to Germany. | 2:02:22 | |
They didn't have landing during that flight. | 2:02:27 | |
That's why they came a plane and by with the petrol, | 2:02:32 | |
Interviewer | Refuel? | 2:02:38 |
- | Refuel during the flight. | 2:02:40 |
So we could have a straight flight to Germany | 2:02:45 | |
and then like nothing would happened | 2:02:48 | |
they opened my handcuffs and shackles. | 2:02:53 | |
That's it. | 2:02:56 | |
Interviewer | And then did you think you were free? | 2:02:57 |
- | I wasn't sure so I didn't say I'm free. | 2:03:03 |
I did not say that I'm free. | 2:03:05 | |
There was three people, | 2:03:10 | |
they was surprising that I had goggles, handcuffs, shackles. | 2:03:12 | |
German people came to pick me up from the plane | 2:03:17 | |
when they saw me how I arrived they got surprised. | 2:03:21 | |
because I'm going to be a free man. | 2:03:25 | |
And I'm getting treated as a worst terrorist in the world. | 2:03:27 | |
And they couldn't understand that he looked each other | 2:03:32 | |
what's going on and they didn't know what they should say. | 2:03:36 | |
They said we will bring to your family car. | 2:03:40 | |
I had to sign something and then we went into a car. | 2:03:44 | |
And after 10, 15 minutes driving by the car with the car, | 2:03:49 | |
I met my family and we went back home | 2:03:57 | |
Interviewer | And then you had to drive to Bremen, | 2:04:07 |
'cause you didn't land in Bremen, right? | 2:04:08 | |
- | Yeah it was an American Base in Stuttgart. | 2:04:10 |
Interviewer | And so do you opinion of America | 2:04:16 |
or Americans change from before Guantanamo | 2:04:19 | |
to after Guantanamo? | 2:04:23 | |
- | No, that has nothing to do with the Americans. | 2:04:28 |
It's just, if somebody else would told me | 2:04:32 | |
the same thing will happen to somebody else, | 2:04:40 | |
like what's happened to me and if you will tell me | 2:04:43 | |
what's his own story, | 2:04:47 | |
maybe I will not believe him. | 2:04:49 | |
I would say this man is crazy. | 2:04:50 | |
I don't believe that that Americans will do something | 2:04:52 | |
like that because since I'm a child, | 2:04:55 | |
I'm watching Hollywood movies | 2:04:58 | |
and they are always the good ones, | 2:05:00 | |
helping other ones against bad people. | 2:05:04 | |
I really would not believe it | 2:05:09 | |
but after it's happened to me I know today | 2:05:11 | |
to what our democratic countries are able to do. | 2:05:16 | |
The same thing to Germans, the German government. | 2:05:22 | |
I'm not saying that all politicals are bad, | 2:05:28 | |
but there are so many people can get the power | 2:05:30 | |
and do his own his own way. | 2:05:35 | |
And that is everybody the same thing, | 2:05:40 | |
Turkey, Germany, America, | 2:05:43 | |
and that why I'm going in public and talking about it. | 2:05:46 | |
So we can take care of for the future | 2:05:48 | |
and make change for the future | 2:05:51 | |
and look for those kinds of people | 2:05:53 | |
that they can't go on on power. | 2:05:55 | |
That is important but I have many American friends today. | 2:05:58 | |
I don't blame Americans for their government | 2:06:03 | |
or for the doings of their government. | 2:06:07 | |
I don't blame Americans for it of course not. | 2:06:09 | |
I mean, it's the same thing if you will come here | 2:06:11 | |
and say, "I hate you because of Hitler." | 2:06:15 | |
I'm not responsible for his doing since same thing with | 2:06:19 | |
Americans they are responsible for the doings | 2:06:22 | |
of their government. | 2:06:24 | |
And I know very well that there was so many Americans | 2:06:25 | |
tried their best to stop Bush's works. | 2:06:28 | |
And I know so many Americans hating Bush, | 2:06:34 | |
but they couldn't do anything against him. | 2:06:38 | |
Interviewer | What would you like to happen | 2:06:44 |
for you and for other former prisoners and for Guantanamo? | 2:06:48 | |
- | What would I like to do? | 2:06:55 |
Interviewer | What would you like to happen? | 2:06:57 |
What do you think America could do? | 2:06:59 | |
Or what would you like German government to do? | 2:07:00 | |
- | The word counter-terror with justice is a nice word. | 2:07:10 |
Yeah you should counter terror | 2:07:16 | |
but with justice that's true. | 2:07:18 | |
but not innocent people, if they're innocent people, | 2:07:22 | |
anybody that's captured if he's innocent or not, | 2:07:26 | |
they have the right to get the legal fight. | 2:07:31 | |
They have the right to go to the court. | 2:07:38 | |
And if he is innocent then he has to go to the prison | 2:07:40 | |
and people who's not innocent they don't have to stay | 2:07:44 | |
in a torture camp or in a prison. | 2:07:49 | |
They have the right to go home. | 2:07:52 | |
So that is what should happen. | 2:07:54 | |
People should go to the court and to have a legal fight. | 2:07:56 | |
Interviewer | Legal hearing? | 2:08:01 |
- | Legal hearing of course and then everything will be fine | 2:08:02 |
but you can't keep innocent people | 2:08:07 | |
because you kept them many years as an innocent man. | 2:08:10 | |
You can't put innocent people in prison | 2:08:16 | |
and say, "I kept them here now for many years. | 2:08:17 | |
"And he's innocent now, maybe he got guilty. | 2:08:21 | |
"Maybe he got to dangerous and I can't let him go anymore." | 2:08:23 | |
That's it's crazy. | 2:08:27 | |
Interviewer | Do you see anything positive | 2:08:29 |
and also anything negative, of course, | 2:08:33 | |
that impacted your life from being in Guantanamo | 2:08:36 | |
or would you look at it looking back if you saw | 2:08:40 | |
how it affected your life, how it changed your life, | 2:08:43 | |
if there's anything positive | 2:08:45 | |
and what's negative to your life. | 2:08:47 | |
- | Positive, it's a good thing that I saw those things, | 2:08:55 |
the real things. | 2:09:06 | |
And I can talk about it and say I survived. | 2:09:07 | |
So I can talk about it that's very important. | 2:09:11 | |
And I think if people take it real what's going on | 2:09:17 | |
so they can make things change for the future, I hope so. | 2:09:23 | |
Interviewer | And negatively? | 2:09:29 |
- | Negatively I lost five years of my life. | 2:09:32 |
Interviewer | Yeah. | 2:09:36 |
- | I think it's enough, bad enough | 2:09:38 |
but it doesn't make change anything about it | 2:09:44 | |
if I talk about my last five years, it's gone, | 2:09:47 | |
it was not any five years it was one of the most important | 2:09:52 | |
time in someone else's life between 19 and 26, | 2:09:56 | |
it's an important time where you could do many nice things | 2:10:01 | |
and could have lots of fun | 2:10:10 | |
but that is in the past and what's happened has happened. | 2:10:12 | |
I'm looking for the future and try trying to make the best. | 2:10:19 | |
Interviewer | Is there something I didn't ask | 2:10:25 |
that you'd like to talk about that I overlooked | 2:10:27 | |
or something you'd like to say? | 2:10:35 | |
- | There are many people got killed | 2:10:41 |
on the torture and the guy on the chain | 2:10:44 | |
he wasn't the only one I saw get killed. | 2:10:49 | |
There was also another one in Kandahar. | 2:10:52 | |
They covered his head with a blanket | 2:10:58 | |
and they kicked, they kicked his head until he died. | 2:11:00 | |
It was another one, | 2:11:04 | |
there so many other people got killed on the torture. | 2:11:06 | |
Nobody knows where he is if he's still somewhere | 2:11:08 | |
in a hiding place or not, | 2:11:11 | |
there are so many people got killed, | 2:11:13 | |
nobody knows about them. | 2:11:15 | |
But it's also very difficult for Amnesty or for lawyers | 2:11:20 | |
to go behind those things, it's very difficult. | 2:11:26 | |
But if somebody could bring those things on light, | 2:11:31 | |
it would be very fine of course it's important | 2:11:37 | |
for their families if they're missing a family member, | 2:11:39 | |
they don't know if he's still alive or somewhere in prison, | 2:11:45 | |
it's bad for the families. | 2:11:48 | |
If somebody could say them | 2:11:50 | |
he got killed and you don't need to wait, | 2:11:54 | |
he's not coming back home. | 2:11:58 | |
That is important for their families. | 2:11:59 | |
Interviewer | Can you tell us about your T-shirt? | 2:12:03 |
Why, where that comes from and why you wearing? | 2:12:05 | |
- | My T-shirt comes from Amnesty International. | 2:12:10 |
I like to have work with Amnesty International together. | 2:12:15 | |
It's, they did many good works during my time in prison. | 2:12:19 | |
They tried their best to get me back out | 2:12:26 | |
and made many demonstrations and everything. | 2:12:29 | |
Even if it wasn't helpful but they tried their best. | 2:12:32 | |
And I'm traveling around the world | 2:12:38 | |
to work with Amnesty International together, | 2:12:42 | |
to talk about torture, to talk about politicals, | 2:12:46 | |
to what they are able to do everything. | 2:12:52 | |
And that is how they pay me, | 2:12:56 | |
they pay me with T-shirts and... | 2:13:00 | |
Interviewer | Give you many T-shirts and they fit you | 2:13:03 |
they have a big size fits you. | 2:13:06 | |
- | If I like what, how it's looked so I'm taking it. | 2:13:11 |
(chuckles) | 2:13:15 | |
Interviewer | Well, I wanna thank you. | 2:13:17 |
Thank you very much, I appreciate all the time you gave us. | 2:13:19 | |
Thank you very much. | 2:13:23 | |
- | Thank you for coming here | 2:13:24 |
and trying to make change the world. | 2:13:26 | |
(chuckles) | 2:13:30 | |
Interviewer | You're doing that so thank you. | 2:13:32 |
That was great, that was amazing. | 2:13:37 | |
Yeah, thank you. | 2:13:38 |
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