Dergoul, Tarek - Interview master file
Loading the media player...
Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Woman | Okay, we're rolling. | 0:05 |
Man | Okay, good. | 0:06 |
Okay, good afternoon. | 0:07 | |
We are very grateful to you | 0:09 | |
for participating in the "Witness To Guantanamo" project. | 0:10 | |
We invite you to speak of your experiences | 0:16 | |
at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. | 0:18 | |
We're hoping to collect your story | 0:20 | |
and the stories of other men | 0:22 | |
who have been to brought to Guantanamo. | 0:25 | |
We are creating an archive | 0:28 | |
of the stories so that people in America and in the world, | 0:31 | |
will have a better understanding | 0:34 | |
of what you and others have endured. | 0:36 | |
Future generations must know what happened. | 0:40 | |
And by telling your story, you are contributing to history. | 0:43 | |
We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak to us. | 0:47 | |
If at any time you wanna take a break, | 0:51 | |
please let us know and we'll take the break. | 0:53 | |
And if at any point you say something | 0:56 | |
that you'd like to remove, | 0:58 | |
just please let us know and we'll remove it from the text. | 1:00 | |
So any time, just let us know. | 1:04 | |
- | Okay. | 1:06 |
Man | Okay and I'd like to begin | 1:07 |
with some basic information as to who you are | 1:08 | |
and so, if you wouldn't mind, | 1:14 | |
just beginning by telling me your name | 1:16 | |
and I'll have a few other basic questions about yourself. | 1:20 | |
- | Okay. | 1:24 |
Man | So your name? | 1:26 |
- | My name is Tarek Dergoul. | 1:28 |
Man | And your country of origin? | 1:29 |
- | My parents are from Morocco. | 1:33 |
Emma | (mumbles) baba. | 1:34 |
Man | And your hometown? | 1:36 |
- | I was born in Britain, England in London. | 1:38 |
Man | In London and your birth date? | 1:42 |
- | 11th of the 12th 77. | 1:45 |
Man | And your age? | 1:48 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:51 | |
Okay. | 2:20 | |
Man | Should we go, please? | 2:25 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 2:27 | |
(door clicking open) | 2:29 | |
Woman | Do you wanna play with us? | 2:31 |
(Tarek laughing) | 2:34 | |
Emma would like to go outside, | 2:36 | |
but I don't know if your comfortable | 2:38 | |
with me taking her outside. | 2:39 | |
- | I don't think. | 2:42 |
No, I think... | 2:43 | |
Woman | Okay. | 2:44 |
Man | Okay, age? | 2:45 |
- | Age 31. | 2:46 |
Man | Nationality? | 2:48 |
Like, are you a British? | 2:50 | |
- | Yeah, I was born a British, Britain. | 2:53 |
Man | So, you're a Britain citizen? | 2:56 |
- | Yeah I'm British citizen. | 2:57 |
Emma | Baba. | 2:58 |
(speaking in foreign language). | 2:59 | |
Man | The religion? | 3:01 |
- | Muslim. | 3:02 |
Man | Do you speak any other languages | 3:04 |
besides English? | 3:05 | |
- | Arabic. | 3:07 |
Man | Marital status? | 3:09 |
- | Single. | 3:13 |
Man | Single, okay. | 3:14 |
Two children? | 3:15 | |
- | No. | 3:17 |
Man | Okay, you don't wanna talk about it. | 3:18 |
- | No. | 3:19 |
- | Okay. | |
Man | And your current place | 3:21 |
of residence is London? | 3:23 | |
- | London. | 3:24 |
Man | And do you know? | 3:25 |
Do you remember when you arrived in Guantanamo | 3:26 | |
and when you left? | 3:27 | |
- | I arrived, May the first, 2002 | 3:31 |
and left March the ninth, 2004. | 3:39 | |
- | Okay, we wanna begin by asking you to describe | 3:45 |
what happened when you were first arrested | 3:49 | |
up to the time you went to Guantanamo. | 3:53 | |
Just between the time you were arrested, | 3:55 | |
to the day you went | 3:57 | |
to Guantanamo (mumbles). | 3:58 | |
- | Okay. | |
I was hooded, but I was in a hospital being treated | 4:00 | |
for my wounds by the Afghans. | 4:08 | |
And for about five weeks, | 4:10 | |
I was given antibiotics, some proper medications, | 4:14 | |
I was being fed pretty well. | 4:18 | |
Five weeks into my stay | 4:20 | |
and I was hooded and put into a pickup, | 4:23 | |
taken to a field, helicopter landed, | 4:28 | |
sold to the Americans for $5,000 | 4:31 | |
and then taken to Bagram Airbase. | 4:34 | |
When I landed in Bagram Airbase, | 4:37 | |
I was put in a... | 4:39 | |
It seemed space with heavy lighting. | 4:42 | |
I was still hooded. | 4:45 | |
I sensed there was people around me. | 4:47 | |
I was then taken into a room to be, as they call, processed. | 4:50 | |
And they unhooded me and undressed me fully. | 4:55 | |
I was fully naked. | 5:00 | |
There was maybe about 10 people in a room, | 5:03 | |
Moroccan army uniform | 5:05 | |
and they were taking pictures just of my whole body. | 5:10 | |
They were taking notes and taking swabs. | 5:13 | |
And basically I was, as they called, being processed. | 5:18 | |
Then I was put into a blue jumpsuit | 5:23 | |
and I was taken into another room. | 5:26 | |
This is in the Bagram Airbase. | 5:28 | |
And another big room, I was taken to put on a bed, | 5:30 | |
a stretcher bed and then basically interrogator come to me | 5:35 | |
and he said to me, "I'm your ticket home." | 5:39 | |
And then he said, "Well, we'll talk later." | 5:43 | |
And then he went. | 5:45 | |
I stayed in Bagram for about five weeks | 5:48 | |
and I was given antibiotics and painkiller once | 5:52 | |
throughout my whole stay. | 5:57 | |
I was told by the Afghan doctors | 5:59 | |
that I needed to be keep taking my antibiotics | 6:01 | |
'cause my feet might get infected. | 6:09 | |
So I kept telling the doctors, | 6:15 | |
basically I need antibiotics for my feet, | 6:16 | |
antibiotics for my feet 'cause I was suffering | 6:18 | |
from frostbite. | 6:20 | |
And I was refused apart from one time. | 6:22 | |
After five weeks, I was hooded, lined up | 6:26 | |
with other hostages and then we were put on a, | 6:29 | |
I think, a helicopter and then take them to Kandahar. | 6:34 | |
Kandahar, the conditions are totally different. | 6:38 | |
Bagram was snow and ice and Kandahar was hot, | 6:42 | |
was very, very hot, maybe 40 degrees. | 6:49 | |
And there I was also refused medication. | 6:52 | |
They kept taking me back and forth to interrogation | 7:00 | |
and on one time to interrogation | 7:04 | |
'cause of my condition and amputated the arm, | 7:06 | |
had frostbite of my feet, | 7:10 | |
I wasn't able to walk at a fast pace. | 7:11 | |
So the guards on either side | 7:14 | |
would actually push me to walk faster. | 7:16 | |
And then my big left toe flipped on the floor, | 7:19 | |
I sort of stood on it and it cut. | 7:24 | |
It got infected, after about two or three days, | 7:27 | |
it was full of pus. | 7:30 | |
Exactly like... | 7:32 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 7:35 | |
Two or three days after my foot been cut, | 7:46 | |
just a slight cut, it got infected, | 7:49 | |
filled up with pus like if you was to film the fly, | 7:52 | |
exactly like that when the foot, you know, | 7:56 | |
then I could've just pulled a nail off from so much pus. | 7:58 | |
And I kept showing the guards. | 8:04 | |
I kept showing 'em, "Look, my foot, | 8:06 | |
"look at it, I need antibiotics." | 8:07 | |
And their response was, "F-U-C-K, you f-ing terrorist. | 8:09 | |
"You don't get nothing." | 8:14 | |
And that happened a couple of times. | 8:16 | |
Otherwise they would just ignore me. | 8:19 | |
One day, a lady doctor, | 8:26 | |
she was maybe about, very short, 5'5" | 8:29 | |
or something, 5'6". | 8:33 | |
She, blonde hair, she basically... | 8:34 | |
She saw my foot, I showed her my foot | 8:38 | |
and then she like took mercy on me | 8:41 | |
and she said, "This guy needs, he needs an antibiotic, | 8:43 | |
"his foot is affected." | 8:46 | |
So she started me on antibiotics that day, | 8:47 | |
came back to me the next day | 8:50 | |
and said to me, "No, it's too late, | 8:50 | |
"the toe needs to come off." | 8:52 | |
I was taken into a tent area | 8:55 | |
which was a medical surgical room | 8:59 | |
and a doctor, a trainee doctor, | 9:02 | |
a nurse and a interrogator, a Chinese lady interrogator, | 9:08 | |
were there. | 9:18 | |
And I was laid on a bed, | 9:19 | |
I was given some serum, it made me dozy. | 9:21 | |
Then they started operating on my toe. | 9:25 | |
The doctor was talking the trainee doctor through it. | 9:29 | |
The doctor, he looked in his 50s, | 9:32 | |
the trainee doctor looked like in his 18, | 9:35 | |
he wasn't even 20. | 9:38 | |
And he was telling him exactly what to do. | 9:40 | |
I was awake, I was conscious | 9:42 | |
and a chisel was put to my toe | 9:46 | |
and they were knocking it. | 9:48 | |
And they were hammering at the chisel | 9:50 | |
and I actually put my head up to see | 9:55 | |
and I could see them two standing up my toe, you know | 9:58 | |
and he's telling them, "Do it like this, | 10:01 | |
"come left, right." | 10:02 | |
And I'm being interrogated by a Chinese lady | 10:04 | |
and asking me if I've seen any famous people, | 10:08 | |
you know, sly questions and interrogation. | 10:14 | |
It was as if it wasn't an interrogation, | 10:15 | |
the questions weren't so blunt. | 10:17 | |
And the guy next to me was in charge of putting serum | 10:23 | |
and making I was dozy enough to not be so conscious. | 10:26 | |
Then after, so basically, the training nurse | 10:39 | |
is sowing away and he's doing everything, you know, | 10:40 | |
he's just been talked through the whole process | 10:42 | |
from from to cutting with a scalpel | 10:43 | |
from to knocking at my toe and to it stitching it up. | 10:46 | |
And I'm being interrogated the whole time. | 10:50 | |
That was-- | 10:56 | |
Man | So, were you able to answer the questions | 10:57 |
during that interrogation, if you were dozy? | 11:00 | |
- | I was... | 11:03 |
I knew what they was up to | 11:05 | |
And so basically I made myself | 11:07 | |
as if I was totally out of it. | 11:08 | |
So therefore he wouldn't add any more serum | 11:12 | |
and basically I would just, you know, | 11:15 | |
I don't think... | 11:20 | |
I can't remember if I answered questions enough. | 11:20 | |
Emma | (mumbles). | 11:23 |
- | Yeah, I can't remember if I asked them any questions, | 11:25 |
I asked questions, what the questions were exactly | 11:26 | |
apart from that one, did you meet any famous people? | 11:28 | |
I remember that one and I don't know if I answered it | 11:31 | |
or can't remember exactly, but she was a Chinese lady, | 11:35 | |
very attractive and it was an interrogation | 11:39 | |
and an operation. | 11:44 | |
Man | Before going back to Bagram, | 11:48 |
were you interrogated in Bagram? | 11:50 | |
And were you in, you know, | 11:53 | |
could you describe how those interrogations went? | 11:55 | |
- | Yeah, I didn't speak that much but yeah, | 11:58 |
Bagram, I was refused my medication that was asking for | 12:01 | |
and I was interrogated. | 12:07 | |
I mean, my conditions in Bagram was really bad. | 12:09 | |
I was shaking 'cause it was freezing. | 12:11 | |
I got unprotected left arm, so I have phantom pain | 12:14 | |
and in the cold, any doctor will know | 12:18 | |
in the cold that the phantom pain is extreme | 12:20 | |
and my arm starts tensing up. | 12:24 | |
You start to like all nerves start like a fist, | 12:26 | |
I could feel like I've got a fist in my shoulder area. | 12:29 | |
And so it does get painful, it's like I get shooting pains | 12:32 | |
and anyone will tell you, your doctor will tell you this. | 12:37 | |
And that's the condition. | 12:41 | |
I was kept in those conditions, they were freezing. | 12:42 | |
I wasn't given much food. | 12:44 | |
Everyone was given like the same food | 12:46 | |
which was like some raisins. | 12:49 | |
It was out of a MRE pack, you know, the MRE pack. | 12:54 | |
It was some raisins, it was like a microwave meal thing. | 12:56 | |
And it wasn't warmed up or anything, | 13:05 | |
it came the way it came. | 13:06 | |
And I can't remember who gave us water | 13:08 | |
and now and again, again, there's orange or an Apple. | 13:11 | |
And this was the food that they gave, the Afghani bread, | 13:14 | |
a little bit of Afghani bread. | 13:16 | |
And everyone had the runs. | 13:18 | |
They would take me all the way down to... | 13:20 | |
I was hidden away in isolation block, an isolation room, | 13:22 | |
'cause it was all concrete. | 13:27 | |
And now and again, when I needed to use the toilet, | 13:29 | |
I was taken all the way down. | 13:33 | |
Took me ages to go down because of my style of walking. | 13:35 | |
And I was taking into the cages where everyone else was. | 13:37 | |
There's about 15 cages beside each other. | 13:40 | |
I was taken into one of the empty cages | 13:42 | |
and I was taken to the back. | 13:45 | |
I was made to sit on a half-cut barrel | 13:46 | |
which was used as a toilet. | 13:49 | |
Had like crap, it smelled disgusting | 13:51 | |
and I was made to use the toilet. | 13:54 | |
And then out there was asked me, | 13:55 | |
before I went they would ask me, what are you gonna do, | 13:57 | |
number one, or number two? | 13:58 | |
And they would knock you down. | 14:00 | |
And they would weigh you, everything. | 14:01 | |
And everyone would be losing weight, | 14:03 | |
everyone would be skinny, I was at my worst that time. | 14:04 | |
There was heavy machinery in the background. | 14:07 | |
Like I said, it was snow outside. | 14:10 | |
Now and again, they'd let us walk outside, it was snow. | 14:11 | |
In interrogation, a gun was put to my head | 14:15 | |
and there was always a guard in the corner of the room | 14:20 | |
with M16 military gun. | 14:24 | |
And I'm basically and you'd hear gunshots. | 14:36 | |
You would hear gunshots while being interrogated | 14:39 | |
and screams. | 14:41 | |
So all of this pressure. | 14:42 | |
Man | And what kind of questions | 14:48 |
were they asking you in the first interrogation | 14:49 | |
and later interrogations? | 14:53 | |
- | They would ask me basically from A to Z questions. | 14:55 |
Where are you from? | 14:58 | |
What's your name? | 14:59 | |
Man | They believe you when you answered that? | 15:03 |
Did they say anything about that? | 15:05 | |
- | Their system would be basically they ask you the questions | 15:08 |
and then another to ask you the same questions | 15:10 | |
at faster pace. | 15:13 | |
And another interrogator will come and ask you | 15:14 | |
exactly the same questions at faster pace | 15:16 | |
to see if you're consistent in your story. | 15:18 | |
And then they... | 15:21 | |
I kept asking for the British-- | 15:23 | |
Man | Diplomat? | 15:26 |
- | Yeah, like were are they gonna come? | 15:27 |
And they said, basically, they're coming, they're coming | 15:30 | |
and then one day, they fake... | 15:33 | |
The brown American guy will fake a British accent | 15:35 | |
and it was so rubbish. | 15:38 | |
And then they asked the same questions again, | 15:39 | |
a million miles an hour. | 15:41 | |
And basically that was that's kind of tricks they-- | 15:43 | |
Man | Did MI5 ever show? | 15:49 |
- | Yeah, MI5, they came and they saw the condition I was in. | 15:51 |
They sat down, there was a guard in the corner | 15:54 | |
with an M16 as usual | 15:57 | |
and they saw me shaking, literally, like a washing machine, | 15:59 | |
like, you know, when it's rinsing. | 16:02 | |
I was shaking like this, 'cause it was so cold, | 16:05 | |
I couldn't hold myself. | 16:07 | |
I'm not a kind of person to show my emotions | 16:09 | |
but I was forced to, 'cause of my nerves | 16:12 | |
and I was shaking like I was having a fit in front of them. | 16:14 | |
And they didn't bother, they didn't bother. | 16:18 | |
There was interest in asking me, you know, | 16:21 | |
they're saying, "Just answer the questions | 16:23 | |
"or blind and you won't go home." | 16:24 | |
There wasn't interested in my welfare, | 16:25 | |
they would basically used that opportunity, | 16:29 | |
to get the information that they wanted to get. | 16:33 | |
And that's it basically. | 16:37 | |
Then they went. | 16:38 | |
Man | Did the Red Cross come to Bagram? | 16:40 |
- | Yeah, the Red Cross came | 16:42 |
when I was in general population. | 16:44 | |
I was at the bottom of the other guys. | 16:47 | |
They said, we're gonna come back in a couple days. | 16:49 | |
They said they will come back in a couple of days | 16:51 | |
and I will be able to write a letter home. | 16:53 | |
Then which I was very interested, | 16:56 | |
like, very like, anxious to do. | 16:58 | |
Basically a day before they came, | 17:02 | |
they took me up into isolation. | 17:05 | |
And then I was asking like, "Well, where's the Red Cross?" | 17:08 | |
'Cause I knew they were coming back in a couple of days | 17:10 | |
and the guards kept telling me, | 17:11 | |
"Nope, they're not here, they're not here, | 17:12 | |
"they're not here." | 17:14 | |
And then, I knew they were coming | 17:15 | |
so I slyly asked the question, | 17:17 | |
like in a different way to the guard. | 17:22 | |
And then he said, "Oh, they're gone now." | 17:24 | |
And you know, he didn't know that I knew. | 17:27 | |
And then basically I kicked up a fuss | 17:30 | |
and I said, "When I get back home, | 17:32 | |
"I'm gonna take pictures of my feet | 17:33 | |
"and I'm gonna put them in newspaper | 17:34 | |
"and I'm gonna say this what you guys done." | 17:35 | |
And in the night, an interrogator came | 17:38 | |
and he woke me up fiercely, | 17:41 | |
he dragged me and he said, "Get up." | 17:47 | |
And then they took me next door | 17:49 | |
and he slammed my head into the radiator, | 17:51 | |
back of my head into the old school radiators, | 17:55 | |
the old design shape. | 17:57 | |
He slammed my head into the radiator | 17:59 | |
and then he laid me out on my stomach | 18:00 | |
and got on my back and put me in a headlock. | 18:04 | |
And he said, he threatened to send me to Morocco, | 18:08 | |
Egypt, or Cuba. | 18:13 | |
And I didn't understand the Cuba thing, | 18:15 | |
I was thinking it didn't sound right. | 18:18 | |
And then he said, "I wouldn't be scared | 18:19 | |
"to take that one off a one-armed man." | 18:21 | |
And he was swearing, effing and blinding. | 18:23 | |
That was that. | 18:27 | |
Woman | I have a question about the Chinese woman, | 18:28 |
who did she work with? | 18:30 | |
Do you know? | 18:31 | |
- | She looked like she was in civilian clothes. | 18:32 |
Woman | But you didn't identify if she was CIA or...? | 18:37 |
- | No, I can't remember. | 18:39 |
I doubt it, I doubt she would have, but-- | 18:41 | |
Woman | But she wasn't wearing military? | 18:43 |
- | No, she wasn't (mumbles). | 18:45 |
Man | Why would they put you in isolation? | 18:49 |
Do you know? | 18:51 | |
- | Your background, because of that Red Cross. | 18:52 |
Yeah, definitely-- | 18:54 | |
Emma | Baba, baba, ba. | 18:55 |
- | I mean, they never said it, | 18:57 |
but I mean, I concluded that because it was obvious | 19:00 | |
that I was British and I'm gonna be telling them stuff. | 19:06 | |
And you know-- | 19:09 | |
Man | And when you ask for doctors, | 19:11 |
still in Bagram, then we'll get to Cuba, | 19:13 | |
when you ask for doctors in Bagram, | 19:15 | |
did they say, "You're not gonna see a doctor?" | 19:17 | |
Or they just ignored you or--? | 19:19 | |
- | Yeah, no, yeah, they sent doctors, yeah. | 19:21 |
They sent them, yeah, they came to me | 19:24 | |
and then they would ask me the questions, blah, blah | 19:25 | |
and I'll tell 'em, then they say, | 19:27 | |
"Okay, enough for all of you, now go." | 19:28 | |
And it was one doctor that gave me, | 19:30 | |
like I said, I got antibiotic and painkiller once in Bagram. | 19:32 | |
So that was it. | 19:35 | |
It wasn't the same doctors all the time. | 19:36 | |
So it was the one doctor that gave me that medication, | 19:38 | |
that one time, or ordered it to be given. | 19:41 | |
Man | The rest of the doctors-- | 19:45 |
- | Yeah, they never gave-- | 19:46 |
Man | And at Kandahar, | 19:47 |
the doctors didn't do anything either | 19:48 | |
except when they one time. | 19:50 | |
- | Exactly, that lady that I mentioned, yeah. | 19:51 |
It was her that started the whole process of me. | 19:54 | |
You know, I don't know, that could have spread, | 19:57 | |
Who knows? | 20:00 | |
That could have spread up to my whole leg or something. | 20:01 | |
I mean, there was no need for it to be... | 20:03 | |
There was no need for it to be amputated in the first place. | 20:09 | |
If I had just got the antibiotics, | 20:11 | |
my toe would have been still there now. | 20:14 | |
Man | Were you otherwise taken out and mistreated | 20:19 |
while you were in Bargam, or in Kandahar? | 20:26 | |
Were there other incidents? | 20:28 | |
Or did you see other people being mistreated? | 20:33 | |
- | Yeah, in Kandahar, they... | 20:35 |
Sorry, in Bagram Airbase, they in a hangar, | 20:38 | |
it was a big, massive hangar. | 20:42 | |
They played a game called beat down, as they called it. | 20:44 | |
I've never, ever seen. | 20:48 | |
I've heard of... | 20:49 | |
I've asked late when I asked the guard, | 20:50 | |
what does beat down mean, explain to me? | 20:52 | |
It's American game show or something. | 20:54 | |
But basically, beat down | 20:56 | |
and they used to holding baseball bats | 20:58 | |
and they would make the Afghanis | 21:00 | |
in the next cell was across on the right of me, | 21:03 | |
they would make them assume sitting positions | 21:07 | |
without a chair, you know? | 21:11 | |
Or just made to stand on, meeting on the knees | 21:12 | |
and if they moved, they'll be hours and hours on end. | 21:16 | |
And if they move, they would go in | 21:19 | |
and beat them with a baseball bats. | 21:21 | |
And to an extent that there was one time a guy | 21:23 | |
basically, who knows whether they killed him or not? | 21:26 | |
He was just... | 21:29 | |
He couldn't get up. | 21:30 | |
So they dragged him. | 21:31 | |
Two guards came in and dragged him out basically | 21:33 | |
and they took him out somewhere else. | 21:39 | |
And who knows whether he was alive or he died, or anything. | 21:40 | |
Man | So they didn't do that to you-- | 21:44 |
- | No, specifically they was very harsh on the Afghanis. | 21:46 |
Man | Why do you think on the Afghanis | 21:52 |
and not on the English, or the Brit? | 21:53 | |
- | Or even the Saudi Arabians or even the Gulf, | 21:56 |
or other countries. | 21:59 | |
There are so many countries | 22:00 | |
that they could have done it to, | 22:01 | |
but they concentrated on Afghanis. | 22:02 | |
Maybe 'cause that was their country | 22:04 | |
and, you know, impossible for them to get in trouble for it | 22:06 | |
or not to get (mumbles). | 22:10 | |
Man | And when they held you in Bagram, | 22:13 |
did they tell you why they were holding you? | 22:16 | |
- | I can't remember. | 22:23 |
Man | And in Kandahar, did they tell you | 22:24 |
why they were holding you? | 22:25 | |
Or they tell you like all those different countries, | 22:27 | |
they didn't say much else about, | 22:32 | |
they tell you that you're gonna be there for a long time, | 22:34 | |
or do they tell you anything at all about it? | 22:39 | |
- | They said forever. | 22:42 |
Yeah, they say forever. | 22:43 | |
They said, basically, you not going home. | 22:45 | |
You're gonna stay forever. | 22:46 | |
They said that they gave us... | 22:51 | |
They said that your family, you know, | 22:54 | |
your bank accounts are being checked. | 22:56 | |
This was told to me by the British and the Americans. | 22:58 | |
That your bank accounts are being checked, | 23:01 | |
your family bank accounts are been seized | 23:03 | |
and, you know, we're speaking to your family and blah, blah | 23:06 | |
and, you know... | 23:10 | |
Yeah, so, I mean, they made it seem | 23:15 | |
as if something, it wasn't. | 23:16 | |
So they were definitely exaggerating, you know? | 23:19 | |
Man | Is there anything else you saw in Kandahar, | 23:23 |
the likes of other people, how they were treated? | 23:28 | |
So did you see any other incidents? | 23:30 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 23:36 | |
- | In Kandahar there was also a front... | 23:41 |
Don't know how we call it. | 23:46 | |
The tent or the block. | 23:48 | |
It's like it was a massive one, | 23:51 | |
well, it was a tent and then it was like barbed wires | 23:52 | |
going all around. | 23:55 | |
So I don't know what you call that. | 23:57 | |
But basically there was a tent in front of us | 23:58 | |
and one day they brung in a load of Afghanis. | 24:03 | |
Just got off the plane fresh and they put them in there | 24:06 | |
and they made them all go on their knees. | 24:10 | |
The floor was like, you know, | 24:12 | |
like, you know, you go to countries like Africa, | 24:14 | |
you know, know the floor is just like stones and sand | 24:18 | |
and it's just uneven. | 24:21 | |
And basically they would make you go on your knees, | 24:22 | |
like on that surface and which would be very hard | 24:25 | |
and the sun will be beaming. | 24:29 | |
So they made the Afghanis do that | 24:30 | |
for like forever, you know? | 24:32 | |
There was no time limit, there was no... | 24:34 | |
They just left them like that | 24:36 | |
and no one was gonna tell them to get up or anything. | 24:38 | |
And then basically when they started dropping, | 24:41 | |
until they started literally dropping | 24:45 | |
and there was another occasion over a distance, | 24:47 | |
they would like, they hold like Afghanis as well in a line | 24:52 | |
and instead of like, just letting them walk into the cell, | 25:00 | |
they will literally, | 25:02 | |
they won't have any chains on their feet, | 25:03 | |
they would just grab them from their backs, | 25:04 | |
scruff the neck from the back and the back of the trousers | 25:09 | |
and they would just like throw them into the cells | 25:12 | |
on the floor in their cells. | 25:16 | |
Yes. | 25:20 | |
Man | Was there any resistance? | 25:21 |
Did you notice any of the people who were captured | 25:23 | |
resisting the guards? | 25:27 | |
- | Not really, 'cause there was like, it wouldn't... | 25:29 |
There was towers all over the... | 25:33 | |
It was the airport, yeah, Kandhar Airport. | 25:38 | |
And they had guns and it was the outside guards. | 25:40 | |
Like every guard had a gun. | 25:43 | |
So there wasn't, no, there wasn't. | 25:47 | |
I mean, there wasn't any resistance | 25:49 | |
and also can I say, that they will do cell searches. | 25:50 | |
Every now and again they would do cell searches | 25:55 | |
and they would say, "Everyone, get to the back, | 25:58 | |
"get to the back." | 26:00 | |
You know, everyone had to go to the back of the huge cage, | 26:01 | |
whatever you call it and go on their knees. | 26:05 | |
There will be guards right in front of them | 26:08 | |
with M16 facing at them. | 26:09 | |
And about five different guards would come in | 26:12 | |
and ransack the whole place, | 26:16 | |
the tent, the area. | 26:18 | |
And to be caught (mumbles) there, | 26:20 | |
they rip him up, they'll throw him in a bucket, | 26:21 | |
in small bucket which is used a toilet | 26:24 | |
and they let you sleep there would actually ends in there. | 26:26 | |
They will... | 26:33 | |
And basically, you know, | 26:36 | |
and so they would just like throw everything upside down. | 26:37 | |
Blankets and everything can be just thrown upside down. | 26:41 | |
And they'll just leave. | 26:43 | |
And if there was any apples, or anything left over | 26:46 | |
that wasn't allowed to be kept as well. | 26:47 | |
Apples, or any raisins, or anything, they will take that | 26:49 | |
and they would take that with them. | 26:51 | |
And they would always take from the food, | 26:54 | |
they would never give you a full meal. | 26:56 | |
It's always find something lacking in the meal. | 26:58 | |
And there was a isolation barn, | 27:03 | |
I don't know if it was a barn or something, it was massive. | 27:06 | |
And it would just, it had five on one side, | 27:08 | |
then five on the other. | 27:10 | |
And there was, higher up on either side, | 27:12 | |
there was two guards with guns. | 27:15 | |
And in that isolation block which I was kept, | 27:18 | |
in that isolation barn, should I say, | 27:21 | |
no one was allowed to speak. | 27:24 | |
And there was rats and insects and little, | 27:26 | |
like it was a lot of wildlife, all on the floor like sand. | 27:31 | |
It was sand, do you know what I mean? | 27:36 | |
And then basically a million... | 27:39 | |
I know a guy called Ahmed Errachidi, a Morocco | 27:44 | |
who I hope you're gonna see | 27:47 | |
'cause he's got very, very good... | 27:48 | |
He'll tell you the precise detail of a lot of things. | 27:50 | |
We was beside each other | 27:53 | |
and basically he was like, you know | 27:55 | |
"I'm gonna call to prayer." | 27:58 | |
(Tarek chuckles) | 28:00 | |
And I said, "You know, you can't talk aloud." | 28:01 | |
And he didn't give a damn, | 28:03 | |
he just got up and was, "Allahu Akbar Allahu." | 28:04 | |
I was like, "Stop, stop, stop." | 28:07 | |
And basically and when I saw him do that, | 28:09 | |
he gave me encouragement, then I got up | 28:12 | |
and done it, the next prayer. | 28:14 | |
And then we just started and then they couldn't do nothing, | 28:16 | |
which is pretty-- | 28:19 | |
Man | You have (mumbles) with you? | 28:20 |
- | There you didn't, no. | 28:22 |
You didn't have, no. | 28:23 | |
I think, no, I actually didn't it's isolation. | 28:25 | |
Man | So they never did anything when he started praying. | 28:27 |
- | Yeah, they didn't. | 28:30 |
He was, later on in Cuba, he was punished. | 28:31 | |
He was one of those guys they put on sleep deprivation | 28:36 | |
for like months and he really lost a lot of weight. | 28:39 | |
So that was, yeah, I couldn't see him later on. | 28:44 | |
'Cause he's like an influential person, that he's really... | 28:46 | |
'Cause he lived in this country for 18 years, | 28:48 | |
but he hasn't got citizenship. | 28:50 | |
Speaks perfect English and he was just like, | 28:53 | |
he just knew them inside out | 28:55 | |
and he would just like, | 28:56 | |
they would just hate him 'cause he would | 28:58 | |
know, all the rights and stuff. | 28:59 | |
Man | And I'll ask you more about him | 29:04 |
when we get to Guantanamo. | 29:05 | |
I want to ask you after you had your surgery on your foot, | 29:05 | |
was it improved even though you lost the toe? | 29:11 | |
Was the pain less intense? | 29:14 | |
- | Yeah, there was no pain in the first place, | 29:19 |
'cause I really didn't have much sensation | 29:21 | |
in my feet at that time. | 29:23 | |
Man | Oh. | 29:25 |
- | I forgot to say I wasn't able to feed myself | 29:26 |
when I was in Bagram, or Kandahar. | 29:30 | |
My hand, I couldn't actually hold even a glass. | 29:34 | |
If I was to hold the glass, | 29:36 | |
it would just fall out of my hand. | 29:37 | |
You know when your hand's numb, that pins and needles, | 29:38 | |
it was literally like that | 29:41 | |
and I couldn't get a grip on it. | 29:42 | |
It took a while for it to... | 29:45 | |
For me to get my sensation in my hand. | 29:46 | |
And there would be no one cutting open my meals, | 29:48 | |
or anything. | 29:50 | |
And I had to do everything by teeth or my knees | 29:51 | |
and with one hand. | 29:53 | |
And plus having that hand not fully functioning. | 29:54 | |
Man | Did you show that to the doctors too? | 29:59 |
- | Not really, yeah, I wouldn't really do that. | 30:03 |
I mean, not try and... | 30:07 | |
But they could see that he just got his... | 30:08 | |
He could just about get his meal open. | 30:10 | |
Emma | (speaking in foreign language). | 30:12 |
- | When I was in-- | 30:14 |
Emma | (Speaking in foreign language) | 30:15 |
- | When I was in Afghani custody... | 30:17 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 30:19 | |
When I was in Afghani custody, | 30:25 | |
I was being fed by one of the Afghanis. | 30:26 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 30:31 | |
Man | We take a break? | 30:35 |
Woman | I'm just gonna fix it, you can... | 30:36 |
Man | Let us take a break from your interview. | 30:41 |
- | Cool. | 30:43 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 30:45 | |
(camera clicking) | 30:54 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 30:56 | |
(camera clicking) | 30:59 | |
I knew that it's got a really good camera on that. | 31:03 | |
Got a camera myself, | 31:05 | |
I was just got recently one of these. | 31:06 | |
Man | Huh. | 31:09 |
- | It's not bad. | 31:10 |
- | Really? | 31:11 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | They take AA batteries. | 31:12 |
I mean it better to have that, | 31:13 | |
but this actually is a video cameras well. | 31:15 | |
Man | Is it? | 31:17 |
- | Yeah, it's a video camera with a voice. | 31:18 |
And you know the cheapy ones cost about 58 Pounds. | 31:21 | |
Man | That's really? | 31:25 |
What do you have here? | 31:26 | |
And it takes good photos? | 31:27 | |
- | Yeah, it take good photos and it's a video | 31:28 |
and it takes AA batteries, it doesn't take--- | 31:29 | |
Yeah. | 31:31 | |
Man | Oh, that's where the money is. | 31:32 |
Okay, for the batteries. | 31:33 | |
- | Yeah and then it takes an SD card which-- | 31:34 |
Man | Oh, really? | 31:37 |
- | Yeah. | 31:38 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 31:39 | |
Take advantage of this time. | 31:45 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 31:46 | |
Woman | They have film cameras like these? | 31:51 |
That's nice, yeah. | 31:53 | |
- | Yeah, it's-- | 31:54 |
Man | 58 pounds what a deal, huh? | 31:54 |
(camera clicking) | 31:58 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 32:01 | |
Woman | He can help him, right? | 32:07 |
- | Yeah, I'll bring it in with the feeling. | 32:09 |
Woman | Okay, whenever you're ready. | 32:13 |
- | Okay. | 32:14 |
(camera clicking) | 32:15 | |
Emma | (mumbles). | 32:21 |
- | Okay. | 32:25 |
Man | So you're saying about your left hand, | 32:30 |
that you couldn't hold anything. | 32:31 | |
- | So, okay. | 32:35 |
Man | You couldn't hold anything with your hand. | 32:38 |
- | Yeah, I couldn't hold anything with my hand | 32:39 |
and basically, I wasn't... | 32:41 | |
Like when I was in Afghani custody, | 32:46 | |
the Afghanis used to... | 32:48 | |
The guy who brung the food would feed me. | 32:50 | |
Would actually, would literally like, | 32:54 | |
pick up my glass and give it to me and feed me. | 32:55 | |
When I was in the American custody | 33:00 | |
I wasn't given any medication | 33:01 | |
and I wasn't giving any, I wasn't... | 33:03 | |
Disabled basically, for a disabled person, | 33:09 | |
I wasn't given any attention at all. | 33:11 | |
Man | And after the operation, or the surgery, | 33:15 |
did anything change in terms of, | 33:18 | |
you said you had no pain to begin with | 33:22 | |
so it made no difference for the toe. | 33:23 | |
Did it make any difference at all | 33:26 | |
in how you felt afterwards, or you know, change? | 33:28 | |
- | Yeah, it did, my walking wasn't exactly the same. | 33:32 |
I mean, at that time I'd have no sensation | 33:40 | |
but now I've started to, you know, even years after, | 33:42 | |
I've started to get my sensation back. | 33:45 | |
And it's just it's not a nice, you know, | 33:50 | |
it's not a nice seeing you're toe missing. | 33:52 | |
And it wasn't even, you know, there was no need. | 33:56 | |
I mean, if I just got the antibiotics. | 33:58 | |
Man | And how much after that surgery, | 34:01 |
did you go to Guantanamo? | 34:02 | |
Was it soon after, or were you still in Kandahar | 34:04 | |
when you were interrogated? | 34:08 | |
- | I think I stayed in exactly, | 34:10 |
I probably stayed, probably about | 34:11 | |
a couple of months after that I was taken to... | 34:18 | |
Man | And can you describe how those two months were? | 34:21 |
Did anything change from the time you first arrived? | 34:24 | |
- | No, nothing, nothing. | 34:28 |
In fact, it kept getting worse. | 34:29 | |
There was no special treatment for anyone. | 34:30 | |
Basically, it was the same for everyone. | 34:36 | |
I think the first time they had to put me on, | 34:41 | |
I couldn't walk, | 34:44 | |
so they had to put me on some sort of stretcher | 34:45 | |
and they had to... | 34:49 | |
Yeah, I remember they took me once | 34:51 | |
to an interrogation and they put... | 34:53 | |
I can hear like, 'cause every time | 34:55 | |
you went to interrogation in Kandahar | 34:58 | |
you couldn't see, it had to have a bag of your head. | 34:59 | |
And one time they will play music, | 35:03 | |
I think Slim Shady, or whatever you call it. | 35:08 | |
I can hear them listening to it somewhere, | 35:10 | |
I don't know where it was coming from exactly. | 35:12 | |
But on my way to interrogation, I could hear that playing. | 35:15 | |
And it was one of the same guards | 35:17 | |
that used to take me to interrogation. | 35:19 | |
And everyone was just having a good time. | 35:23 | |
You know, all the Americans, | 35:25 | |
they were just having a good time | 35:26 | |
and everything was fun, everything was cool. | 35:28 | |
You know, helicopters were flying overhead, | 35:33 | |
the Apaches that will come and start | 35:36 | |
and they would literally like stand | 35:38 | |
like there on the tree trunk, | 35:40 | |
on the tree branch and stand in front of us. | 35:42 | |
Sometimes they would fly as low, extremely low. | 35:45 | |
So they were-- | 35:50 | |
Emma | Daddy. | 35:51 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 35:52 | |
- | So the Americans were just basically having | 35:54 |
a very good time as I could see. | 35:57 | |
Man | Were they held in interrogation for a long time? | 36:04 |
Do they keep you in the room for... | 36:06 | |
(Tarek coughing) | 36:09 | |
How long did they keep you in the room at times? | 36:10 | |
- | Probably about an hour, an hour and a half. | 36:14 |
I think the first important place would be Bagram. | 36:17 | |
Basically, they would, if your, from what I understood, | 36:22 | |
if you was processed from Bagram and go to Kandahar, | 36:26 | |
then basically you'd be like... | 36:30 | |
You'd be okay to, you know... | 36:32 | |
You wouldn't be a big deal, basically. | 36:34 | |
All the information would have been extracted in Bagram. | 36:36 | |
Your story would have been cleared | 36:39 | |
and in Kandahar, they will take it. | 36:41 | |
It would be a bit not so extreme. | 36:42 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 36:48 | |
Man | So before we go to Guantanamo, | 36:58 |
I just wanna clarify again, | 36:59 | |
so when the, did you say the British delegation, | 37:01 | |
whomever, came to visit you? | 37:04 | |
Or who came to visit you. | 37:05 | |
Once you were at Kandahar, | 37:09 | |
can you say once they faked a British accent, | 37:10 | |
but did the Bush delegation ever come to you, | 37:12 | |
or they never came during that time? | 37:15 | |
- | In Bagram? | 37:17 |
Man | Or in Kandahar? | 37:18 |
- | Yeah, in Kandahar, they came I think maybe twice | 37:21 |
they came and basically they offered no information, | 37:24 | |
any more information, they just come with exactly the same | 37:28 | |
what kind of questions, | 37:32 | |
but roughly they're the same questions they asked | 37:33 | |
and they just said basically, you know, | 37:36 | |
just help the Americans and you'll come back home | 37:38 | |
and that's it. | 37:41 | |
Man | And when you went in isolation, how was that like? | 37:43 |
Can you describe what that was like during, you know, | 37:46 | |
how long you were in isolation? | 37:50 | |
- | In Kandahar? | 37:53 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | I was in isolation, yeah, in a barn place | 37:54 |
I was telling you for about maybe five days, or a week. | 37:56 | |
'Cause I was next to Ahmed. | 38:01 | |
It was like, it was a bit fun. | 38:03 | |
'Cause we were like, we were talking to each other, | 38:07 | |
whispering and stuff and like cracking jokes. | 38:08 | |
But it seemed like a long time. | 38:13 | |
It seemed like a long, long time. | 38:15 | |
And after we was taken out and it was amazing | 38:18 | |
because I remember actually when I first | 38:22 | |
I was in one of the places, | 38:24 | |
the tents, basically when I was first taken | 38:29 | |
and then like a week later or something, | 38:31 | |
they said, "Go to the back, go to the back, go to the back." | 38:34 | |
Everyone's going to the back on the knees, | 38:36 | |
facing the other way. | 38:37 | |
Then they will bring in someone | 38:38 | |
and then they will place him on the floor | 38:40 | |
and put their knees on him | 38:42 | |
and then take the chains off | 38:44 | |
and they'll run out before he was able to get up | 38:45 | |
up and maybe grab them or something. | 38:48 | |
So one day that was Ahmed and Ahmed didn't get up. | 38:50 | |
I then got up and walked over | 38:53 | |
and he was still on the floor, he didn't move. | 38:54 | |
So yeah, went over to him | 38:56 | |
and the first thing that coming to my mind | 38:57 | |
was that as if this guy fell out of the sky. | 39:00 | |
The way he was landed on the floor. | 39:02 | |
And that's when we first became friends. | 39:05 | |
And he still is amazing, this guy | 39:08 | |
I think he's wrote a book. | 39:10 | |
And he was the guy that preached to the American guard, | 39:12 | |
he became Muslim. | 39:18 | |
Yeah, so, he's amazing person, he's amazing. | 39:20 | |
And so basically that was my first, | 39:24 | |
that was why I didn't make it up after, | 39:26 | |
and that was that my first physical feel | 39:28 | |
was like as close came up to this... | 39:29 | |
And then he would tell me his stories | 39:31 | |
things that used to happen to him in Bagram, | 39:33 | |
where they didn't pray. | 39:37 | |
They forced him, they stopped him from praying. | 39:39 | |
And then basically he's screaming and shouting at them. | 39:41 | |
And then afterwards, like five minutes after, | 39:45 | |
an earthquake took place and all the guards run out. | 39:47 | |
They just ran for their lives. | 39:50 | |
They just run outside the hangar. | 39:53 | |
And yeah, and it was amazing, | 39:56 | |
and they used to make him drink bottles of water. | 39:57 | |
Bottles and bottles and bottles | 40:00 | |
and they used also make him assume | 40:01 | |
the sitting position and stuff. | 40:03 | |
And he was telling me these stories one day | 40:06 | |
when he was walking around at night, around the tent area. | 40:08 | |
And then basically I was laughing, | 40:14 | |
I was literally in stitches | 40:16 | |
as he's telling me these stories. | 40:16 | |
And then they saw us. | 40:19 | |
And then the next day they took him to isolation. | 40:20 | |
So, I think that's why they took him to isolation. | 40:23 | |
And then a day after they took me to isolation | 40:25 | |
and then they put me beside him. | 40:28 | |
And then took us out of isolation | 40:30 | |
and then they put us in the same block. | 40:31 | |
So it was... | 40:33 | |
I'm sure they didn't I mean. | 40:35 | |
Maybe they did. | 40:36 | |
It was amazing just to be beside him. | 40:37 | |
Woman | You told us this one else, | 40:40 |
what's his name again? | 40:41 | |
- | Ahmed Errachidi. | 40:42 |
- | Ahmed Errachidi. | 40:43 |
- | Yeah. | |
Man | And did he help you enjoy this? | 40:45 |
It sounds like he helped inspire you and keep going. | 40:48 | |
Was that... | 40:53 | |
How did you handle being in Bagram, or in Kandahar | 40:54 | |
when you met him? | 40:59 | |
Was he a good support for you? | 41:00 | |
- | Yeah, he was. | 41:02 |
He basically put things into perspective. | 41:05 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 41:08 | |
Yeah, he was 'cause he was like, | 41:19 | |
at that age, at that time, | 41:22 | |
I think I was 36 or something like that. | 41:24 | |
But basically he was like experienced as a chef. | 41:28 | |
He literally was a chef and he was telling like | 41:30 | |
he's getting like 600 Pounds a week in his job. | 41:33 | |
And so basically, and he was like experienced | 41:37 | |
in his life and he's been different countries. | 41:42 | |
He's traveled and stuff. | 41:43 | |
So he was telling me, basically, this is how it is | 41:44 | |
and you know, and he's telling me Quran aides as well. | 41:48 | |
At first he saw the Quran, | 41:55 | |
that the prophets, you know, they went through | 41:57 | |
the similar same thing | 41:59 | |
and they were prophets from God. | 42:01 | |
And they got tortured and persecuted and assassined. | 42:03 | |
And yeah, so you can imagine who are we? | 42:06 | |
So he was telling me things that keep you patient | 42:10 | |
and stuff you mentioned, | 42:12 | |
versus he make you like, understand basically why, | 42:13 | |
you know, we're here and stuff | 42:16 | |
and say, "Lift your head up." | 42:17 | |
You know, and he make you feel | 42:21 | |
like you're honored, basically. | 42:23 | |
Like it's, you're getting rewarded for this. | 42:25 | |
You know, this is nothing gets... | 42:30 | |
Nothing goes, except when an angel writes it. | 42:33 | |
So, yeah, it was special. | 42:37 | |
Man | So could you describe how it happened | 42:42 |
that they sent you to Guantanamo, | 42:44 | |
what happened just before you were sent | 42:46 | |
and how the trip went to Guantanamo? | 42:48 | |
- | Shh (mumbles) shh. | 42:51 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 42:53 | |
Figured out how to use it. | 43:01 | |
(Tarek chuckles) | 43:02 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 43:03 | |
Woman | He is (laughs). | 43:10 |
- | That's fine, shh. | 43:14 |
I was taken to a tent area, stripped naked, | 43:18 | |
full cavity search was done on me, | 43:28 | |
as every place was done. | 43:29 | |
Any port I was taken to before a trip out, | 43:32 | |
before any trip, stripped naked, | 43:34 | |
full cavity search was done, this is standard. | 43:38 | |
And I was dressed in a... | 43:40 | |
Pictures are taken | 43:44 | |
and I was dressed in a in a group orange jumpsuit just time. | 43:45 | |
And I was taken, goggles were put on my head, | 43:49 | |
goggles and ear muffs | 43:52 | |
and taken to like a bench. | 43:54 | |
Like in the football stadiums | 44:00 | |
when they got the bench, long bench, | 44:03 | |
then they got the bench behind it, above it, | 44:05 | |
and then that bench, behind the other ones. | 44:07 | |
So, like that kind of design. | 44:10 | |
And they would, I could just see at a corner of my goggles, | 44:12 | |
if I angled my head and basically | 44:16 | |
it was rows of us sitting down with goggles | 44:18 | |
and the ear muffs on. | 44:21 | |
And sat there for hours. | 44:23 | |
It seemed hours, I don't know how long it was. | 44:26 | |
It would just seem just like a nightmare. | 44:27 | |
It just seemed too long. | 44:32 | |
Then we were taken outside and then we sat down. | 44:33 | |
We had to cross our feet with chains, shackles also. | 44:36 | |
And then we had to wait there for ages as well. | 44:40 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 44:44 | |
And I was taken outside the tent | 45:06 | |
and made to sat on the floor with my feet folded. | 45:09 | |
It seems a long time as we were in the sun, | 45:15 | |
just everything seemed hours and hours. | 45:18 | |
And then finally a plane came, | 45:23 | |
they put us on the plane and they took off. | 45:28 | |
That plane journey was my worst experience | 45:31 | |
throughout my whole incarceration with the Americans. | 45:34 | |
Basically, it was just the worst. | 45:38 | |
And what it was, because the trip was so long, | 45:40 | |
it seemed like hours and hours, | 45:42 | |
maybe a whole day, 18 hours or something, I think I gave it. | 45:45 | |
And what it was, my ear was flipped over like this, | 45:49 | |
the elastic from the air muffs, or the goggles | 45:53 | |
and AC was blowing as well on my head here. | 45:57 | |
So I've got this pain here | 45:59 | |
and I remember thinking to myself, let me just die. | 46:01 | |
If I can just die. | 46:05 | |
Literally the pain was just too much | 46:06 | |
and it was only... | 46:09 | |
You know, the ear was only flipped over | 46:13 | |
and it was from the elastic. | 46:15 | |
And it was just amazing pain, it was amazing. | 46:17 | |
And my head was killing me from the small things. | 46:18 | |
There's that little air the AC events in the airplanes, | 46:22 | |
and it was blowing literally on my head | 46:26 | |
and it was just killing me, killing me. | 46:29 | |
Couldn't use the toilet, no food, urinate on yourself. | 46:31 | |
Then the plane stopped somewhere. | 46:36 | |
I'm not sure where, seemed that it was dark, | 46:39 | |
that's all I can remember | 46:42 | |
and it was warmish kind of atmosphere. | 46:43 | |
And I've taken off the plane, like dragged off the plane. | 46:46 | |
The cuffs are so tight, you know, across my feet and my arm | 46:49 | |
and I was dragged off that plane up a ramp to another plane. | 46:53 | |
Then that plane took off | 46:57 | |
and it took, I don't know how many more hours, | 46:58 | |
maybe just 1/4 of the time | 47:00 | |
that I was on the other flight. | 47:02 | |
And then we landed, it was in Cuba. | 47:04 | |
Man | Did you ever tell any of the guards | 47:07 |
that the elastic was too tight on your ear? | 47:09 | |
- | No, I didn't. | 47:12 |
I don't know what reason I didn't. | 47:15 | |
I can't remember whether I was scared, | 47:16 | |
or whether I was too proud to do that, | 47:19 | |
or I don't know what. | 47:22 | |
Or maybe they wouldn't, | 47:23 | |
I don't know what reason, but, you know, I didn't. | 47:25 | |
But and then we got to Cuba | 47:33 | |
and pictures were taken so as well, | 47:35 | |
pictures, you can see flashes, | 47:38 | |
yeah, flashes being taken and stuff, so it's pictures. | 47:40 | |
Basically, the best thing is like, | 47:43 | |
I didn't want them to like me | 47:44 | |
and the guards know that I was British, | 47:45 | |
they'll wanna speak. | 47:46 | |
'Cause I was scared just in case I'll get worse treatment. | 47:49 | |
And, you know, they would concentrate on me more, | 47:54 | |
so I wouldn't let them, I wouldn't speak. | 47:56 | |
But, and then we got to Cuba. | 47:58 | |
Cuba, we was taken off this plane | 48:00 | |
and I was put on the bus, on the floor of a bus. | 48:02 | |
While I was anyway at the front. | 48:07 | |
And when I went a bit and then it went over some water | 48:10 | |
when it was like sort of a boat or something, | 48:14 | |
on some water in the area and then it went off again. | 48:16 | |
And then they put us on the floor. | 48:20 | |
Then they took us into this cubics | 48:24 | |
that they had. | 48:26 | |
There was a shower there. | 48:30 | |
They made you strip naked and take a shower. | 48:32 | |
Everyone watching, was about 10 easy, | 48:35 | |
10, 15 people easily there. | 48:36 | |
Even in uniform and you was made | 48:40 | |
to take a shower in front of them. | 48:42 | |
Then you was taken again | 48:43 | |
and then a full cavity search was done again | 48:45 | |
and they just processed, weighed, pictures taken. | 48:47 | |
And then and everyone's having a good time, | 48:51 | |
as they always do, as they always seems | 48:54 | |
on the face of it they are. | 48:56 | |
Then I was taking... | 49:01 | |
And then at that point, | 49:02 | |
I thought this is my chance to, you know, | 49:03 | |
it seemed like there was a bit of organization. | 49:07 | |
It seemed like I was in a place | 49:12 | |
that maybe I could get some help. | 49:14 | |
Some system in place. | 49:17 | |
It seems like there's a system in place, | 49:19 | |
everything's indoors now. | 49:20 | |
So I told them I was a British citizen | 49:21 | |
and I kept saying it and I said, | 49:24 | |
"I've got my feet, you know, I got frostbite on my feet." | 49:26 | |
I was taken to another room, put on a stretcher. | 49:29 | |
And I was given two injections | 49:34 | |
into my like far backside area. | 49:36 | |
I was asked what there was | 49:42 | |
and they said that it's for your wellbeing. | 49:43 | |
I kept telling about my feet | 49:46 | |
and then they took me to a blue... | 49:47 | |
They took me to a place which was a blown up tent, | 49:49 | |
which was like a hospital. | 49:52 | |
And there are saw Abdul Aziz and (mumbles) | 49:54 | |
and Abdul Aziz had a tube up his nose. | 50:00 | |
He's hunger striking from Camp X-ray | 50:03 | |
'cause when I arrived, I arrived when Camp X-ray | 50:06 | |
was finished and abolished. | 50:08 | |
And I arrived in Camp Delta. | 50:11 | |
So he was still on hunger strike from Camp X-ray | 50:13 | |
and Red Cross said... | 50:15 | |
And red cross man told me | 50:17 | |
that it's been documented in their files or something, | 50:19 | |
that he hunger striked for 100 days without food. | 50:22 | |
I saw that through the water, so it rolled. | 50:26 | |
And it initially showed because he was Ethiopian. | 50:29 | |
It's like one of those pictures, you know, | 50:32 | |
his bones were sticking out, chest was caved in. | 50:33 | |
So this is my first visual of this hospital when I came. | 50:37 | |
I was put on the bed and then they start. | 50:43 | |
They would come every day and put my feet in warm water | 50:47 | |
and start scrubbing away at my feet | 50:54 | |
'cause it was like frostbite. | 50:55 | |
It was like dead skin, purple, | 50:57 | |
I mean purple blue-black kind of skin. | 50:59 | |
Really, really, dark, horrible. | 51:02 | |
So they would come in every day and start peeling away | 51:03 | |
and so it took them about maybe about | 51:07 | |
a week to get it off, literally. | 51:10 | |
Yeah then they brought in Mamdouh Habeb, Australian. | 51:14 | |
They brought him, putting beside me. | 51:17 | |
And then when they brought him, they closed the tent. | 51:20 | |
They closed the curtain, so we couldn't see the other guys. | 51:22 | |
So it's just me and Mamdouh on the space. | 51:25 | |
And Mamdouh told me about his situation. | 51:29 | |
And basically he was sent to Australia and tortured | 51:35 | |
and then sent to Kandahar, then sent to Cuba. | 51:40 | |
And I actually testified in court for him, | 51:47 | |
from London here on the phone. | 51:51 | |
I testified when I was actually cross examined | 51:55 | |
by a prosecutor and spoken to by a judge on the phone | 51:58 | |
concerning this. | 52:03 | |
'Cause I was a witness in this case basically. | 52:06 | |
And when I first came out I told his story | 52:08 | |
and you know, Channel 5 came over from Australia | 52:12 | |
and I told them of a certain interview of them | 52:15 | |
and then after two months he got released from Cuba. | 52:17 | |
So it was, his story is pretty interesting as well. | 52:21 | |
And he was basically, he couldn't stand up on his own, | 52:24 | |
when he stood up, he's had to close his eyes | 52:26 | |
and they didn't believe him. | 52:29 | |
They didn't believe his story, | 52:30 | |
he told them that he went through torture | 52:31 | |
and, you know, he's ill. | 52:33 | |
And they would just say, "Your a bull. | 52:37 | |
"Bull, whatever." | 52:39 | |
And after three or four days with me there, | 52:41 | |
they took him back to isolation. | 52:45 | |
So I was there on my own after that. | 52:48 | |
Man | When you say they, | 52:50 |
were you in the hospital this whole time? | 52:51 | |
- | Yeah, it was about... | 52:53 |
I stayed there for about maybe, | 52:54 | |
for the whole time a week, probably a week and a bit. | 52:56 | |
Man | And could you talk to any of the hunger strikers | 52:59 |
while you were there? | 53:01 | |
- | I could, yeah. | 53:02 |
After Mamdouh went, before he came and after he went, | 53:03 | |
the curtain wasn't open between us, | 53:07 | |
so I would be able to speak to them, yeah. | 53:09 | |
Man | And would they tell you? | 53:11 |
That's how you knew about the 100 day hunger strike, | 53:13 | |
they had told you that? | 53:15 | |
- | No, that was a Red Cross guy. | 53:16 |
Yeah, I can't remember where I saw the Red Cross guy. | 53:18 | |
If it was after, or at the same time. | 53:20 | |
But yeah, I actually to one of the guys, the Red Cross guys | 53:23 | |
and they said that, it's been documented for 100 days, | 53:26 | |
hunger strike for 100 days. | 53:30 | |
And he told me himself, | 53:32 | |
after a while he was in the regular blocks | 53:33 | |
and I was beside him | 53:37 | |
and he told me that he was actually a fat person, | 53:38 | |
literally overweight. | 53:41 | |
Like literally, like when, if you saw him, | 53:42 | |
he was actually like about three times skinnier than you, | 53:45 | |
without exaggeration, literally. | 53:48 | |
And he was just like, had no meat on him at all. | 53:51 | |
And his chest was caved in | 53:53 | |
and shoulders were coming out like... | 53:54 | |
Man | Do you know how many times a day he was fed? | 53:56 |
He was fed? | 53:59 | |
- | He had it 24/7 up his nose. | 54:00 |
Man | He had the tube always up his nose? | 54:02 |
- | Yes, yeah. | 54:03 |
Man | Was it lying down, or sitting up? | 54:04 |
- | He was lying down, yeah, but he was... | 54:06 |
Everyone was shackled to the bed. | 54:09 | |
Every time he had to go to the toilet, | 54:12 | |
they would come and put shackles on him | 54:14 | |
and then two guards would have to hold him up while going. | 54:17 | |
And basically I would say to him, | 54:22 | |
you know, when he walked passed, I said to him, | 54:25 | |
"Just, do you know what I mean? | 54:26 | |
"Try and stop it." | 54:27 | |
And I was very wise in my words, | 54:29 | |
and there wasn't much time to speak on him | 54:30 | |
while he's walking past me. | 54:33 | |
But I found out after, | 54:34 | |
you know, the other guys said to me, | 54:37 | |
just to lay off, you know what I mean? | 54:38 | |
'Cause he's like all that is being free | 54:40 | |
and you're just gonna disencourage him and stuff. | 54:42 | |
So he wasn't getting really like that advice. | 54:45 | |
Some of that. | 54:48 | |
Man | And how were the doctors treating you | 54:49 |
during that week you were in the medical clinic? | 54:50 | |
- | You know, I thought I was... | 54:55 |
When I was there, I was thinking, this is not bad. | 54:59 | |
This is good service, you know? | 55:01 | |
It was actually good. | 55:04 | |
And then I was thinking, I felt comfortable | 55:05 | |
after Bagaram and Kandahar when I there, | 55:09 | |
even though I was in prison and God knows where I was | 55:12 | |
'cause we didn't know about Cuba then, | 55:14 | |
we heard about Cuba. | 55:16 | |
Really, c'mon, man, Cuba, prison. | 55:17 | |
So we didn't never been there. | 55:19 | |
And no one believe it everyone thought | 55:20 | |
it was in South Africa. | 55:21 | |
Some people, you know, everyone thought where we was | 55:22 | |
and they kept saying, "No, we're not there." | 55:23 | |
And kept saying, "It's not that direction." | 55:26 | |
And it was crazy, all these stories going around. | 55:28 | |
And even when they told us, "Here you are," blah, blah. | 55:32 | |
We still didn't believe it, so it just stuck. | 55:34 | |
And I actually felt this is good. | 55:37 | |
But that stopped after Miller came. | 55:40 | |
Man | And where did they take you | 55:44 |
after the seven days in the clinic? | 55:45 | |
- | After the seven days, they took me to the regular blocks. | 55:47 |
It was Camp 1 Hotel Block. | 55:52 | |
They put me in cage number 15. | 55:55 | |
Man | Were there other people nearby? | 55:59 |
- | Yeah, there was the whole block was full. | 56:00 |
The whole block consisted of 48 hostages, | 56:06 | |
24 on one side and 24 opposite. | 56:11 | |
And it was just, it was crazy. | 56:16 | |
The noise in that place was absolutely amazing, | 56:24 | |
it's like, everyone's speaking at the same time | 56:27 | |
and some people shouting | 56:30 | |
and it was like a mental hospital, it was crazy. | 56:31 | |
And the heat and then the clothes they've given us | 56:36 | |
and there was no air. | 56:39 | |
Man | What kind of clothes had they given you? | 56:40 |
- | They gave us the famous orange clothes you see? | 56:42 |
It's like a jumper and trousers. | 56:45 | |
It's not a jumpsuit, it's like a jumper and trousers. | 56:47 | |
And there's no air at all, it's just humid | 56:52 | |
and it's extremely hot. | 56:56 | |
And basically the noise, it was just amazing. | 57:01 | |
And you couldn't get your concentration, you know? | 57:03 | |
There was mesh all around the cage. | 57:05 | |
So if you look like a diamond shape mesh, | 57:08 | |
so if you looked at the person next to you, | 57:10 | |
next door to you, you'd have to focus like through the mesh. | 57:12 | |
And after a while, when you look away, | 57:17 | |
your eyes will be like not in focus. | 57:20 | |
So that would affect us as well. | 57:24 | |
They had this machinery working, | 57:26 | |
it's a stupid design, which they had like | 57:30 | |
it was a long block and you probably seen, | 57:31 | |
there's like these things at the top of that, | 57:35 | |
you might've seen outside the blocks. | 57:37 | |
There's these massive, | 57:39 | |
like the cooker when it's got the... | 57:40 | |
It sucks, the air. | 57:43 | |
That's what I had, basically. | 57:46 | |
I know what they call them, | 57:47 | |
extractors or something. | 57:49 | |
About four of those along the block | 57:51 | |
and it didn't do nothing. | 57:53 | |
It just made a huge noise and what was it extracting? | 57:55 | |
We're looking for air, we want something to blow in air | 58:00 | |
and having something sucking, | 58:02 | |
to the extent that when a guard used to walk past, | 58:04 | |
they used to take the hats off | 58:06 | |
and put it on and put on the AC | 58:07 | |
and have it like stuck there. | 58:09 | |
You know, they used to do like a little show for us, | 58:11 | |
they used to come and put the hat there and walk off | 58:12 | |
and then come back and then grab the hat, | 58:15 | |
and put it on the walk off. | 58:16 | |
So to that extent, I mean, and it was ridiculous. | 58:18 | |
But all of that, it was a million times better | 58:21 | |
than Bagram and Kandahar. | 58:26 | |
And the food was okay. | 58:27 | |
But keep in mind, this in case it gets edited, | 58:31 | |
the food is okay when before Miller came | 58:33 | |
and treatments okay before Miller came. | 58:36 | |
But as soon as Miller came, forget all of that. | 58:38 | |
I think I'd rather, probably go back to Kandahar, | 58:42 | |
I feel Kandahar will probably be me best place. | 58:43 | |
Man | How do you know when Miller came in? | 58:46 |
How do you know it was Miller who made the changes? | 58:47 | |
- | Because before he came there was an General | 58:54 |
who would go around the whole block. | 59:00 | |
He had a fat ring on him one of these fingers, | 59:02 | |
or I remember the short stubby guard. | 59:04 | |
And he would walk around the whole camp with a book | 59:07 | |
or notepad and ask you, | 59:10 | |
"What can we do to make your stay better? | 59:12 | |
"How can we make your services more easier?" | 59:15 | |
And then everyone would give their bit. | 59:21 | |
Some people say football, | 59:24 | |
some people will say, I don't know, pen or paper. | 59:25 | |
So, never thought anything of it. | 59:29 | |
We just, you know, yeah, they're asking us, why not? | 59:32 | |
There's nothing in it, just tell him, you know. | 59:34 | |
So after this, a little while after, Miller came. | 59:36 | |
Then we know, then all these things | 59:40 | |
that we were telling him to put down on paper, | 59:42 | |
got implemented in a level system. | 59:44 | |
So it was level one, level two, level three, level four. | 59:46 | |
And level one was the best level. | 59:50 | |
You had two cups and a bottle. | 59:53 | |
Before Miller came, everyone had this, everyone had it. | 59:56 | |
So when Miller came, he introduced the level system | 59:59 | |
which meant level one would have two cups, | 1:00:02 | |
one bottle, two sheets, two blankets, | 1:00:04 | |
a big bar, some huge bar of soap, | 1:00:08 | |
a toothbrush, actual normal toothbrush | 1:00:10 | |
and maybe some other bits that I can't remember. | 1:00:14 | |
Then level two would have like one cup only. | 1:00:19 | |
Sorry, yeah, a cup only. | 1:00:25 | |
And then you have like two blankets and one sheet. | 1:00:27 | |
Then you come down, you know, like a medium bar of soap. | 1:00:31 | |
Then level three would have less. | 1:00:35 | |
Level four would have a blanket and a mat, that's it. | 1:00:37 | |
So there were four was the worst level | 1:00:41 | |
and I was on level four most of the time. | 1:00:42 | |
Man | Why do you think? | 1:00:47 |
- | Because, basically I would translate for the guys. | 1:00:48 |
I would translate and I would participate | 1:00:53 | |
in hunger strikes and protests. | 1:00:55 | |
So basically I would always be being punished | 1:00:58 | |
Man | Why did you go on hunger strikes and protests? | 1:01:01 |
- | Come, come, come, come, come, come. | 1:01:07 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:01:13 | |
Yeah, he's actually being good. | 1:01:27 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:01:32 | |
I was on hunger strike because of the oppression | 1:01:52 | |
that would be taking place. | 1:01:56 | |
Basically, they were telling us we're not going home. | 1:02:02 | |
And when they said that, it seemed true | 1:02:08 | |
the way they backed it up with shaving our beards, | 1:02:11 | |
whatever they wanted for punishment. | 1:02:14 | |
Shaving our hair, our facial hair, | 1:02:17 | |
even our eyebrows, that's at times, | 1:02:19 | |
and this will be filmed. | 1:02:26 | |
This is documented in an archive that they have. | 1:02:27 | |
They would use the Quran and as a punishment tool. | 1:02:33 | |
Take the Quran away from us as a punishment tool. | 1:02:37 | |
The call to prayer, | 1:02:43 | |
they would play when it shouldn't be played, | 1:02:44 | |
when it's not time for prayer. | 1:02:48 | |
They will pray loud, they will pray low, | 1:02:49 | |
they would rap over it, they would scratch it, | 1:02:52 | |
they would pray the Fajr one, the morning one, | 1:02:56 | |
at night time, et cetera. | 1:03:00 | |
Man | When was this? | 1:03:04 |
Do you remember the month and year? | 1:03:05 | |
- | That was for out whole stay. | 1:03:07 |
This was like, towards the end they stopped playing it. | 1:03:09 | |
But halfway through, like from 2001 to 2003, | 1:03:12 | |
the most of 2003, they were playing it. | 1:03:19 | |
Man | And so you wouldn't go on a hunger strike | 1:03:22 |
with other people in the cells because of these incidents? | 1:03:25 | |
Or was there any particular incident that...? | 1:03:31 | |
- | Okay, we will never hunger strike | 1:03:33 |
for other than the Quran. | 1:03:36 | |
Yeah, so we would do strikes, | 1:03:40 | |
for example, non-cooperation strikes. | 1:03:42 | |
We wouldn't cooperate with the interrogators, | 1:03:45 | |
or we wouldn't cooperate with the guards. | 1:03:48 | |
We'll do anything to make it hard for them. | 1:03:52 | |
Probably would rip up our plates, | 1:03:55 | |
polystyrene plates, and everyone would just throw out | 1:03:56 | |
aside into the walk area | 1:03:58 | |
and it will just make their life really hard. | 1:04:00 | |
And we might probably throw milk at them, | 1:04:02 | |
water at them and abused them when they would shave, | 1:04:04 | |
you know, the other prisoners' beards. | 1:04:09 | |
And they would mock a prophet, mock God. | 1:04:11 | |
So we would retaliate in a non-cooperation kind of way. | 1:04:18 | |
But when it came to, like for example, | 1:04:22 | |
I'll give an example, | 1:04:25 | |
when you're in your cell praying, | 1:04:26 | |
they would knock on your cell | 1:04:29 | |
and say, "Cell search, cell search," | 1:04:30 | |
and they know you're praying, but they don't give a damn. | 1:04:32 | |
You either come out of your cell now, | 1:04:34 | |
or we're gonna come in. | 1:04:36 | |
And sometimes they would come in, like what would happen, | 1:04:38 | |
if you wouldn't come out of your cell, | 1:04:44 | |
they would call for the ERF, Extreme Reaction Force. | 1:04:45 | |
I call them the five cowards, they would... | 1:04:51 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:04:54 | |
Man | You were saying the five cowards? | 1:05:08 |
- | Yeah, the five cowards, basically, | 1:05:09 |
if you did not wanna leave your cell any reason, | 1:05:10 | |
they would call for these five cowards. | 1:05:14 | |
And what it was is basically these guards, | 1:05:17 | |
everyone knows who they are. | 1:05:25 | |
Every day, they've got like a set day that | 1:05:27 | |
who's working this ERF as they call it. | 1:05:29 | |
And so basically what would happen | 1:05:34 | |
is one block would have a hostage | 1:05:35 | |
that doesn't wanna get out of the cell. | 1:05:38 | |
So they would call, they would say on the radio, | 1:05:39 | |
"ERF, ERF, ERF block Hotel," | 1:05:42 | |
for example. | 1:05:45 | |
Then the guards could be on any camp | 1:05:46 | |
and they would know who they are. | 1:05:50 | |
So they would go rushing like Superman, you know, | 1:05:53 | |
like these five guys, you know, | 1:05:56 | |
if you let it on a movie, | 1:05:57 | |
it would actually seem like pretty cool. | 1:05:58 | |
So then everyone would just run to whatever | 1:06:01 | |
and they would run to these boxes | 1:06:02 | |
and put their (mumbles), they run to the block | 1:06:04 | |
with the guy who's gonna be attacked. | 1:06:06 | |
And there'll be a box outside with motorbike helmet, | 1:06:08 | |
with body got armor and all these crazy stuff. | 1:06:11 | |
And they'll put it on, | 1:06:15 | |
then they would march into the block doing big stamps. | 1:06:15 | |
Huge stamps, they would walk in | 1:06:20 | |
and the first one will be holding | 1:06:21 | |
a plastic shield. | 1:06:23 | |
And basically, they would spray the guy with pepper spray, | 1:06:26 | |
and this will be filmed. | 1:06:36 | |
And then they will rush in and attack the person. | 1:06:39 | |
They would knee them. | 1:06:41 | |
It happened to me actually on a personal basis. | 1:06:44 | |
They would knee me, punch me, | 1:06:46 | |
smack your head into the toilet, | 1:06:49 | |
which is a hole in the ground, | 1:06:51 | |
flush the toilet on your head. | 1:06:52 | |
Then they would drag you | 1:06:54 | |
and take you out to the recreation yard, | 1:06:57 | |
which was just a walking area outside | 1:06:58 | |
and sit you up in a chair, shave your hair, | 1:07:01 | |
your facial hair and this will be also filmed. | 1:07:03 | |
And basically then take you to isolation, | 1:07:07 | |
thrown in isolation. | 1:07:09 | |
This would happen for basically, if we were striking, | 1:07:12 | |
if you took out yourself for interrogation. | 1:07:17 | |
For medical. | 1:07:20 | |
If they called you for medical, | 1:07:21 | |
and it was just a simple medical check, | 1:07:22 | |
you'd say, "I don't wanna go." | 1:07:23 | |
They'll say, "You can't refuse this." | 1:07:25 | |
"I don't want to go," | 1:07:26 | |
"You can't refuse." | 1:07:27 | |
Okay, "ERF, ERF, ERF," | 1:07:27 | |
then they'll come and get you. | 1:07:29 | |
This would happen if you refuse | 1:07:32 | |
to acclaim yourself for any reason, | 1:07:36 | |
or sometimes it will happen for a set up, | 1:07:39 | |
they even set you up. | 1:07:40 | |
If they disliked a hostage, | 1:07:41 | |
they would actually call on ERF, as they call it for short | 1:07:45 | |
and then basically they will come in and attack the guy | 1:07:50 | |
and the guy wouldn't even know why. | 1:07:53 | |
And when you go to interrogate isolation, | 1:07:54 | |
you ask them why I'm being punished, | 1:07:56 | |
if you will translate, you know, | 1:07:57 | |
for any other reason they would say, | 1:08:00 | |
"You were inciting a riot." | 1:08:01 | |
Or some other silly reasons. | 1:08:03 | |
So it was hectic, the whole camp was upside down. | 1:08:06 | |
It was just every day, there was like something happening. | 1:08:09 | |
There was no mercy whatsoever from their side, anyway. | 1:08:12 | |
It was just like, everything was happening every day. | 1:08:18 | |
There was like, it was impossible to sit down. | 1:08:20 | |
Nighttime, they wouldn't let you sleep. | 1:08:23 | |
They would come and then they would knock on | 1:08:25 | |
the thing, cell search in middle of the night. | 1:08:27 | |
Put the lights on. | 1:08:29 | |
In regular blocks, they put lights on like 90 Watt bulbs. | 1:08:30 | |
Like two of 'em literally facing down at you | 1:08:34 | |
and they would leave the main lights open, on. | 1:08:37 | |
So basically it's just like 24/7, | 1:08:43 | |
you're being tormented. | 1:08:45 | |
He's holding the... | 1:08:47 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:08:48 | |
Man | I wonder if we should take another break | 1:08:57 |
and see if he wants to go with his sister. | 1:08:58 | |
You think, maybe? | 1:09:00 | |
- | And I think if it... | 1:09:01 |
Yeah, I think continue. | 1:09:02 | |
He's really like, doesn't like to separate. | 1:09:04 | |
Sorry. | 1:09:09 | |
Man | Do you remember why they ERF'ed you that one time, | 1:09:14 |
what specifically happened? | 1:09:17 | |
- | Basically, what's his name? | 1:09:20 |
There's a guy, Saudi guy, called Farouq Meki. | 1:09:24 | |
He was being, I don't know what they call, | 1:09:27 | |
a frequent flyer, should I say? | 1:09:30 | |
I don't know if you've heard of that. | 1:09:32 | |
Man | Yeah, could you describe that | 1:09:33 |
for people who are watching this? | 1:09:34 | |
- | That's what they called, | 1:09:36 |
it was their term, frequent flyer, | 1:09:37 | |
which meant that it was really like, | 1:09:39 | |
it was sleep deprivation, torture. | 1:09:41 | |
Basically, what they would do | 1:09:45 | |
is they would have like these selected hostages | 1:09:47 | |
and then they would they start | 1:09:51 | |
this thing called frequent flyer, system thing. | 1:09:53 | |
Which would mean that they would take them to interrogation | 1:09:57 | |
for like eight hours, 10 hours, | 1:10:02 | |
then they'll take 'em back to their block | 1:10:05 | |
for two, three hours. | 1:10:07 | |
Before they even... | 1:10:10 | |
When they've been into a sleep for three hours, | 1:10:11 | |
they'll wake them up and say, "Interrogation." | 1:10:13 | |
For six hours, eight hours and then back to the cell again | 1:10:15 | |
for two hours, three hours, then they'll go back again. | 1:10:18 | |
So this will be like everyday for a month, | 1:10:23 | |
or two months, literally no exaggeration. | 1:10:26 | |
They would even take him to a block that's not even his, | 1:10:30 | |
in which he would have nothing in his cell. | 1:10:34 | |
So when he got there, he wouldn't even have | 1:10:36 | |
a blanket or a mat | 1:10:37 | |
and he would have to wait for his stuff to come | 1:10:39 | |
and when it came, he'll be in interrogation. | 1:10:40 | |
And when he came back, it will be in another block. | 1:10:43 | |
Now this would happen to a lot of people, | 1:10:47 | |
this happened to a lot of people there | 1:10:47 | |
and when everyone tells you that this happened to you, | 1:10:50 | |
so basically it's called a frequent flyer | 1:10:53 | |
as I think, if I remember correctly, or sleep deprivation. | 1:10:55 | |
This is the system they would use. | 1:10:59 | |
And this, for some people, | 1:11:02 | |
for basically, Ahmed Rashidi, | 1:11:04 | |
this was happening to him. | 1:11:06 | |
And it was just, you know, | 1:11:07 | |
when you're in your cell, relaxing | 1:11:08 | |
and it is relaxing, compared to the other guys, | 1:11:11 | |
what things are happening to them. | 1:11:15 | |
Some people are in isolation in Echo block, | 1:11:16 | |
some people this frequent flyer thing, | 1:11:19 | |
so you're in isolation, we're in a block, it's relaxing. | 1:11:21 | |
So when you see, like we saw him | 1:11:23 | |
basically come back and forth, back and forth, | 1:11:27 | |
we'd be sleeping for like eight hours, nine hours. | 1:11:28 | |
And then we wake up and then he's not even back | 1:11:30 | |
from interrogation. | 1:11:32 | |
So we thought, where's this guy? | 1:11:34 | |
Where is he? | 1:11:35 | |
He don't even come back, we don't even see him. | 1:11:36 | |
When we think it was you, it was in isolation. | 1:11:37 | |
Then he would go to another block | 1:11:39 | |
and then he said, "I've been to this block now." | 1:11:44 | |
And the guy done a whole tour of the whole block | 1:11:47 | |
and he's come back to us and he still hasn't slept. | 1:11:49 | |
This was the last five days ago. | 1:11:51 | |
So when we heard this | 1:11:53 | |
and the guys took a stand on the block | 1:11:54 | |
and they said, "You know, this guy hasn't slept | 1:11:58 | |
"for I don't know how many long." | 1:12:03 | |
And he's over the period that we experienced him for. | 1:12:04 | |
So you can imagine what was happening before. | 1:12:08 | |
So we thought, no, we are in isolation | 1:12:09 | |
and isolation, you always get the front line people. | 1:12:11 | |
'Cause anyone in isolation is a person | 1:12:14 | |
who's gonna stand up for himself, not anyone else. | 1:12:16 | |
So basically everyone took a stand | 1:12:19 | |
and we said, "Yep, we're gonna... | 1:12:20 | |
"Let's take a stance." | 1:12:22 | |
So we called for the guard who's in charge, | 1:12:23 | |
Sergeant of the guards, or whatever | 1:12:27 | |
and he came and we said to him, | 1:12:29 | |
"Listen, this guy is still interrogation. | 1:12:30 | |
"What's the problem? | 1:12:33 | |
"Why are you doing this to him? | 1:12:34 | |
"Can you stop it?" | 1:12:35 | |
Blah, blah, then he went back up | 1:12:36 | |
you know, blah, blah and they said, "Nope, sorry." | 1:12:39 | |
So he said, "Okay." | 1:12:42 | |
We said (coughs)... | 1:12:44 | |
So the guy said (coughs), | 1:12:45 | |
"Basically we're not gonna give you the plates. | 1:12:47 | |
"Plus simple polystyrene thing with plastic spoons. | 1:12:49 | |
"We're not gonna give it back to you, | 1:12:53 | |
"so we know this will cause a reaction. | 1:12:54 | |
"We're not gonna give it to you." | 1:12:56 | |
And we know what they're gonna do. | 1:12:58 | |
Everyone knows that they're gonna call the ERF team. | 1:13:00 | |
So everyone says, "Okay, don't give it to them | 1:13:02 | |
"until they bring him back." | 1:13:05 | |
It's like saying, "I'm gonna keep a bit of tissue, | 1:13:08 | |
"you can't have it." | 1:13:11 | |
So they took it serious as they usually do. | 1:13:12 | |
So they brought the ERF team. | 1:13:15 | |
One ERF team went in on every single cell, one by one. | 1:13:18 | |
Can you imagine the same process, one by one, one by one-- | 1:13:22 | |
Man | How many cells in blocks is there? | 1:13:25 |
- | India block. | 1:13:27 |
So if I remember, it was India block. | 1:13:28 | |
If I'm correct, it's 24 cells, 12 and 12. | 1:13:32 | |
Man | And the ERF went from cell to cell for 24 cells? | 1:13:34 |
- | Yeah, for cell for cell for 24 and-- | 1:13:37 |
Woman | How many cells are an Echo? | 1:13:40 |
Echo's isolation, right? | 1:13:41 | |
- | No, Echo, yeah, is... | 1:13:43 |
I've never been to Echo. | 1:13:44 | |
Echo is just isolation, but it's not like a normal block. | 1:13:45 | |
Woman | So do you know how many isolation cells | 1:13:49 |
they actually had different people in? | 1:13:50 | |
- | No, no, I wouldn't know that. | 1:13:52 |
Mosa, if you ask Mosa, he would know. | 1:13:54 | |
Woman | Okay, but when they took you | 1:13:57 |
from the ERF'ing to isolation or punishment? | 1:13:58 | |
- | I don't know that. | 1:14:00 |
Woman | You don't know, you-- | 1:14:01 |
- | No, that wouldn't be the isolation, | 1:14:02 |
that it wouldn't be Echo, that will be India, | 1:14:03 | |
or Oscar, or November. | 1:14:05 | |
That's, yeah, those three isolation blocks, | 1:14:07 | |
India, which was 24 cells, Oscar, 48 | 1:14:09 | |
and November, I think it was 36 (mumbles). | 1:14:15 | |
So, basically they went on each person | 1:14:20 | |
one by one, one by one, one by one | 1:14:23 | |
and it took a long time for them to reach me. | 1:14:24 | |
And then I actually had my face near the door | 1:14:28 | |
and then they open the hatchet, the food hatchet... | 1:14:32 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:14:38 | |
Man | Your face is by the door and they open the hatchet. | 1:14:56 |
- | Yeah, my face was at the door and they opened the hatchet | 1:14:59 |
and they basically sprayed me | 1:15:03 | |
with pepper spray, close range. | 1:15:05 | |
They were standing at the door | 1:15:06 | |
waiting for me, it was a trap | 1:15:07 | |
and then they sprayed it and it hit me, | 1:15:09 | |
I think in my left eye here, my left eye, | 1:15:12 | |
literally close range, pepper sprayed my left eye. | 1:15:15 | |
And that's it, I was gone. | 1:15:19 | |
I threw up on the floor and they waited. | 1:15:21 | |
They don't come in, I mean, they don't come in | 1:15:23 | |
without pepper spray. | 1:15:24 | |
They'll spray you when you're totally knocked out | 1:15:26 | |
and then the five cowards will come in and attack you. | 1:15:28 | |
So they've done that with me, | 1:15:30 | |
they took me out and they took me outside | 1:15:31 | |
to recreation area and I was screaming, | 1:15:34 | |
"I've got it in my eye, in my eye!" | 1:15:37 | |
Imagine the guy who couldn't speak English | 1:15:39 | |
he didn't know how to utter the words. | 1:15:40 | |
He would've probably would've went blind. | 1:15:42 | |
And I only say it's the mercy from God, | 1:15:44 | |
these certain guards were sent by God. | 1:15:48 | |
I'll never ever give it to them. | 1:15:51 | |
That they sprayed me with water in my eye, | 1:15:53 | |
which helped cool it. | 1:15:56 | |
And the-- | 1:15:59 | |
Man | Is it the same guards | 1:16:00 |
as the guards who pulled you out? | 1:16:01 | |
- | No, no, it was that. | 1:16:03 |
The guards, they stay dressed ready for the next attack. | 1:16:04 | |
But yeah, so basically they done it and they went to stop. | 1:16:07 | |
They went to stop and I kept telling... | 1:16:13 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:16:15 | |
(distant car engine revving) | 1:16:22 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:16:25 | |
Yeah, I don't know if you... | 1:16:33 | |
He might wanna... | 1:16:35 | |
Man | Let's take a break. | 1:16:36 |
- | Am I speaking a bit too fast? | 1:16:39 |
Man | No, not at all. | 1:16:40 |
Are we taking a break? | 1:16:42 | |
Are we on a break? | 1:16:43 | |
- | It's rolling. | |
Man | It's rolling? | 1:16:44 |
Okay. | 1:16:44 | |
Woman | Yeah, you're on break (laughs). | 1:16:45 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:16:47 | |
(door squeaking shut) | 1:17:21 | |
(paper rustling) | 1:17:25 | |
- | So basically I would say they were sent by God, basically, | 1:17:28 |
and they kept spraying me water in my eye | 1:17:32 | |
which I was telling him to do and they stopped, | 1:17:34 | |
which was just the pain kept coming back | 1:17:36 | |
and I kept grabbing the hose | 1:17:39 | |
and I was able to grab the hose and just put it on my eye. | 1:17:41 | |
And then they kept trying to take it off me. | 1:17:46 | |
And I said, "No, it helps, it helps." | 1:17:49 | |
So all this communication, | 1:17:52 | |
I think maybe it was that, you know, also allowed me | 1:17:53 | |
to be able to soothe the pain. | 1:17:56 | |
And I couldn't literally see out of it until the next day. | 1:17:59 | |
And I think it was still hurting, it was red, | 1:18:02 | |
but I haven't got full vision now I must admit I was okay. | 1:18:05 | |
So that's what happened. | 1:18:10 | |
And then they went in on my other guys | 1:18:10 | |
and Ahmed, and he was like, | 1:18:13 | |
I remember he was facing me at the end. | 1:18:15 | |
They went in on him after as well | 1:18:17 | |
but he wasn't waiting inside. | 1:18:18 | |
He came out to them, literally, you know, | 1:18:19 | |
obviously they got him in the end, | 1:18:22 | |
but he actually... | 1:18:24 | |
You know, people... | 1:18:25 | |
Sorry, I forgot to tell you. | 1:18:27 | |
Before me, there was Isa Bahraini. | 1:18:29 | |
He broke the tap of the sink and he waited for them. | 1:18:33 | |
So when they came in | 1:18:36 | |
he actually covered himself in a pepper spray | 1:18:37 | |
and knew it wouldn't affect him and they fought. | 1:18:39 | |
They came in and just sprayed him in the neck with the... | 1:18:41 | |
When that happened, they got towels | 1:18:45 | |
and they done like a loop thing | 1:18:48 | |
and they put it through for the neck. | 1:18:50 | |
And the wet towel, I don't know how they do it. | 1:18:52 | |
But they put it round and on the necks basically. | 1:18:54 | |
'Cause that area was exposed | 1:18:57 | |
that was the only area that had been exposed. | 1:18:59 | |
And he's a really, really big guy. | 1:19:03 | |
So basically, you know, it was a fight. | 1:19:05 | |
It was crazy, it was crazy, | 1:19:10 | |
you can imagine, like, one's gonna stop it. | 1:19:11 | |
You know, no one's gonna stop it. | 1:19:14 | |
No one's gonna come and say, | 1:19:15 | |
"No, you guys out of all that, stop it." | 1:19:16 | |
You know what I mean? | 1:19:19 | |
It was just like, anything could happen, | 1:19:20 | |
you know what I mean? | 1:19:22 | |
And as you know, deaths have happened in Cuba | 1:19:23 | |
and this is how I imagine deaths, | 1:19:26 | |
some of the deaths happened, | 1:19:28 | |
because they would literally poke your fingers in your eye. | 1:19:30 | |
It never happened to me, but other guys, Omar, | 1:19:33 | |
I've never sat and spoke to him actually about this | 1:19:38 | |
but from his eye, I think it was from them guards | 1:19:40 | |
and actually poked. | 1:19:45 | |
Everyone would after we'll say, "Why was you screaming?" | 1:19:46 | |
There was actually screaming, you think, what's happening? | 1:19:48 | |
Sometimes they'll come on one guy | 1:19:51 | |
and the whole block is listening. | 1:19:52 | |
So, then you'd be screaming like intensely. | 1:19:54 | |
Then you'd ask him what happened | 1:19:57 | |
and he say, "They were poking their fingers in my eye." | 1:19:58 | |
So they can do anything to jump on you. | 1:20:00 | |
They literally... | 1:20:02 | |
Muhammad Qurayshi from Saudia, they jumped on his back. | 1:20:03 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:20:07 | |
So, yeah, Muhammad Qurayshi from Saudia, | 1:20:20 | |
they basically, they were jumping on his back. | 1:20:23 | |
Literally like two guards jumping on, | 1:20:27 | |
literally full we know how heavy they are as well | 1:20:29 | |
and they're jumping on his back. | 1:20:31 | |
I forgot his name, | 1:20:34 | |
but one of the guards was paralyzed, as you guys know. | 1:20:38 | |
I forgot his name, | 1:20:41 | |
he's from Saudi Arabia as well. | 1:20:42 | |
He was actually literally paralyzed | 1:20:44 | |
from the attack. | 1:20:45 | |
Man | From the actual being jumped on? | 1:20:47 |
- | Yeah, from being attacked by these five, yeah. | 1:20:48 |
I thought it was the actual, the guards of that block. | 1:20:51 | |
I think it might be the guards of that block, | 1:20:54 | |
not too sure. | 1:20:56 | |
And basically, they drew blood from him | 1:20:57 | |
and I was actually with this guy, | 1:20:59 | |
translating for him a day before this happened. | 1:21:01 | |
And I went. | 1:21:05 | |
Basically, I was taken out by isolation | 1:21:06 | |
'cause I've completed a month. | 1:21:07 | |
So I had to go outside the isolation for two days | 1:21:08 | |
and then come back. | 1:21:10 | |
So when I went, I was in the regular blocks. | 1:21:11 | |
I can hear banging, banging, banging | 1:21:14 | |
like the whole block was like this. | 1:21:16 | |
Everyone was banging on the doors | 1:21:17 | |
and you can hear it from miles away. | 1:21:18 | |
So I was in it, I could hear it | 1:21:21 | |
and we didn't know what was going on. | 1:21:22 | |
Then the next day, I still have punishment. | 1:21:23 | |
So I had to go back and complete that punishment. | 1:21:26 | |
And when I went back, they told me exactly what happened. | 1:21:28 | |
And then we thought he was dead. | 1:21:32 | |
We thought this guy died | 1:21:33 | |
and we kept basically... | 1:21:34 | |
And the whole camp was striking | 1:21:36 | |
and we thought they killed him | 1:21:39 | |
and it came out after that, | 1:21:40 | |
basically he's still alive and they sent one of them. | 1:21:42 | |
They took one of the guys, | 1:21:44 | |
one of the hostage hostages to go and see him | 1:21:46 | |
so he can pass the message on to the other hostages | 1:21:47 | |
and let them know that he's still alive. | 1:21:50 | |
So everyone was calmed down and stop striking. | 1:21:52 | |
Man | And had you seen him paralyzed afterwards? | 1:21:56 |
- | He's actually still part of us to this day. | 1:22:00 |
He's still there. | 1:22:02 | |
I forgot his name. | 1:22:03 | |
His name... | 1:22:04 | |
Woman | When was this done? | 1:22:06 |
- | This was probably 2003. | 1:22:07 |
In the mid 2003, probably. | 1:22:10 | |
Man | And why do they keep putting you in isolation? | 1:22:14 |
'Cause-- | 1:22:16 | |
- | Basically, 'cause I would keep building up | 1:22:17 |
like a punishment basically. | 1:22:19 | |
So I would have outstanding punishments. | 1:22:22 | |
I think even now I've got about six months | 1:22:23 | |
or three months of punishment left (chuckles). | 1:22:26 | |
When I left. | 1:22:28 | |
And I left through my isolation (chuckles). | 1:22:29 | |
Man | Really? | 1:22:30 |
- | (laughs) I've done a year and three months | 1:22:32 |
in isolation on and off. | 1:22:33 | |
Man | How did you handle isolation? | 1:22:35 |
What did you do to handle it with confidence? | 1:22:37 | |
- | Well, to be honest, I never told them that, | 1:22:39 |
but isolation for me personally was better. | 1:22:43 | |
Man | Why? | 1:22:47 |
- | Because the noise in the other blocks | 1:22:48 |
and the AC, I forgot too about AC. | 1:22:51 | |
It was hot outside and the AC was blowing in isolation. | 1:22:54 | |
But they had like a double side to it as well | 1:22:57 | |
because they would actually use | 1:23:02 | |
the air conditioning in isolation for a punishment tool. | 1:23:03 | |
Like the guards would do it. | 1:23:08 | |
So basically like at the beginning, before Miller came, | 1:23:10 | |
in isolation and I said, treatment was good, | 1:23:16 | |
but like I said, don't take... | 1:23:20 | |
For even when before Miller, it wasn't like perfect, | 1:23:22 | |
there was like these mishaps. | 1:23:24 | |
So I would have a cup full of water... | 1:23:26 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:23:29 | |
I would have a cup full of water | 1:23:31 | |
placed beside me in my isolation block. | 1:23:33 | |
And at the time you would have the cups in isolation. | 1:23:36 | |
And in the morning, I would wake up | 1:23:40 | |
and the top layer of it will be iced. | 1:23:41 | |
That's how cold that it would be in isolation. | 1:23:44 | |
So, and then there was one time when an engineer came | 1:23:47 | |
to service the air conditioning and he said, | 1:23:54 | |
"This is below zero." | 1:23:57 | |
He said that and I was beside, I was there | 1:23:59 | |
and the what would you call it? | 1:24:01 | |
Man | Thermostat? | 1:24:07 |
- | Yeah, the thermostat was... | 1:24:08 |
And the controls were just like opposite me to the right | 1:24:09 | |
and he came in, this black guy, | 1:24:13 | |
and he came and he was looking at it and fixing it | 1:24:15 | |
and then he said to the guards, | 1:24:17 | |
"You know this is below zero, or something?" | 1:24:18 | |
And then that's it. | 1:24:20 | |
The guard didn't say nothing to him. | 1:24:21 | |
I don't know what he did after and then that's it. | 1:24:22 | |
Man | And how did it get worse when Miller came | 1:24:26 |
besides being put on you said the fourth level | 1:24:28 | |
and there was bad as other, | 1:24:31 | |
what else happened in sort of different when Miller came? | 1:24:32 | |
- | Basically they sent... | 1:24:36 |
There was guards, every nine months | 1:24:41 | |
they will send new guards. | 1:24:43 | |
And they would just cause havoc. | 1:24:45 | |
You know, when they first came, they will be okay. | 1:24:49 | |
But when Miller come he brung some guards with him. | 1:24:52 | |
I think they were from New York or something | 1:24:55 | |
'cause everyone had a, it was nine one, | 1:24:57 | |
nine one or something, no 9/11, | 1:25:00 | |
or it was nine something patch. | 1:25:01 | |
I can't remember when exactly, but it was nine something. | 1:25:03 | |
And I think they might have been from New York. | 1:25:06 | |
I wasn't really... | 1:25:08 | |
I just stuck onto my head they might be because of 9/11, | 1:25:09 | |
that's why there was that patch. | 1:25:12 | |
It was nine, something patch. | 1:25:14 | |
And I never ever put a two and two together. | 1:25:15 | |
But anyway, basically, the patch, | 1:25:19 | |
when it came they came with Miller, I think. | 1:25:21 | |
Don't take my word for it, | 1:25:24 | |
but I think they came with Miller. | 1:25:25 | |
And when they came, they just caused havoc, | 1:25:26 | |
basically throughout their stay. | 1:25:30 | |
It was like, usually guards come, they change the shift. | 1:25:32 | |
Then they will be okay, for the first month two months. | 1:25:36 | |
Then they would be a bit bad, | 1:25:40 | |
then they would be bad, then they would be bad. | 1:25:41 | |
But these guards, they came and there was evil | 1:25:43 | |
from the beginning to the end. | 1:25:45 | |
And there was like, they was extreme in their behavior. | 1:25:48 | |
So all these things I'm telling you about, | 1:25:52 | |
would happen a lot more often and more. | 1:25:53 | |
They'll cut the water off on you, off the whole block. | 1:25:57 | |
When it's time to pray, they will hear you call for prayer | 1:26:01 | |
and when you called for prayer, | 1:26:04 | |
they'll cut the water off on the main, from the mains. | 1:26:04 | |
So you wasn't able to make evolution | 1:26:06 | |
in preparation for prayer. | 1:26:08 | |
They will torment you, they will torment you basically | 1:26:11 | |
and I mean, we would try and give back as much as well | 1:26:14 | |
and it helped, it worked a lot. | 1:26:19 | |
There was even guards that commit suicide in the camp | 1:26:20 | |
which it's like, no one knows about it, you know? | 1:26:23 | |
Man | How do you know that that happened? | 1:26:27 |
- | They interrogated-- | 1:26:29 |
Man | That the guards committed suicide? | 1:26:30 |
- | The interrogators told us. | 1:26:33 |
- | Really? | |
- | Yeah and personally an interrogator | 1:26:35 |
told me of one incident of a guard who committed suicide. | 1:26:36 | |
What happened was, he wasn't in with us, the guard. | 1:26:39 | |
He was one of the guards on the towers (throat clearing). | 1:26:42 | |
And basically, you know, this is what interrogator told us | 1:26:46 | |
and it was confirmed through other guards and stuff, | 1:26:51 | |
so we'd like covered it the story | 1:26:53 | |
and we made sure it was correct. | 1:26:54 | |
And... | 1:26:57 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:26:59 | |
So basically what had happened is the guard, | 1:27:01 | |
he told his wife, he was going to come back | 1:27:04 | |
on the 25th of October. | 1:27:07 | |
I think it was that exact date, 25th of October. | 1:27:10 | |
But he actually went back on the 24th to surprise her. | 1:27:14 | |
But when he found his wife, | 1:27:16 | |
he went home to see his wife, | 1:27:18 | |
he found his wife doing a full workout | 1:27:19 | |
basically with the gym instructor, or something. | 1:27:22 | |
So basically, he didn't... | 1:27:25 | |
I think something happened between them, | 1:27:28 | |
who knows what happened. | 1:27:29 | |
Then he came back from leave. | 1:27:30 | |
So when he was on the towers or something, | 1:27:33 | |
it was Christmas time. | 1:27:36 | |
It was when the earthquake happened in Iran. | 1:27:37 | |
The big earthquake happened in Iran, | 1:27:41 | |
was it, (mumbles)? | 1:27:43 | |
Yeah, I think it was... | 1:27:45 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:27:48 | |
Woman | Maybe Pakistan, 2006? | 1:27:59 |
Man | No, it was an earthquake in Iran. | 1:28:02 |
- | Yeah, when I was in. | 1:28:03 |
Man | 2005, I think, yeah. | 1:28:05 |
- | It was before, it was at least a big massive earthquake. | 1:28:06 |
It was roughly about that time. | 1:28:08 | |
Man | So I think it was 05, yeah. | 1:28:10 |
- | But I was released in four. | 1:28:11 |
I might have been in Iraq or something. | 1:28:14 | |
I might have been willing to say that, | 1:28:15 | |
no, I'm sorry, Saddam, sorry, I've got it wrong. | 1:28:16 | |
I think there was two, it might have been two, | 1:28:19 | |
when the Saddam thing happened. | 1:28:20 | |
Man | Maybe it was in 04, or three in Iran. | 1:28:22 |
Woman | Mm-hmm (mumbles). | 1:28:26 |
- | But basically at that time. | 1:28:27 |
It was either that time or the Saddam thing | 1:28:28 | |
and this is when, it was around about, October time | 1:28:30 | |
and then it hit December, sorry, yeah, it hit December. | 1:28:34 | |
I reckon it's 2003, December. | 1:28:35 | |
And then Christmas time hit. | 1:28:38 | |
And then the guard, you know, he shot himself in the head. | 1:28:41 | |
Man | At Guantanamo? | 1:28:45 |
- | Yeah, he was in Guantanamo. | 1:28:47 |
Yeah, at Guantanamo. | 1:28:48 | |
And basically I can only gather that, you know, | 1:28:49 | |
he got, obviously, the Christmas feeling, | 1:28:52 | |
and he started these visions of your partner, obviously. | 1:28:55 | |
Man | Did you see men who in Guantanamo commit suicide | 1:29:00 |
or try to commit suicide? | 1:29:05 | |
- | There was one guy who I saw, he was... | 1:29:07 |
But this guy was like, we've heard about him being a spy, | 1:29:11 | |
Bisididar or something. | 1:29:16 | |
He was like, he was a fattish Saudi Arabian guy. | 1:29:18 | |
And he actually, literally, | 1:29:22 | |
I don't know if he was doing it for a joke or something, | 1:29:24 | |
but he used to do it a lot. | 1:29:25 | |
And he used to get like a sheet | 1:29:27 | |
and the times, you know, hang himself up in the mesh. | 1:29:28 | |
Tie a knot there and then put it around his neck | 1:29:33 | |
and jump off and the guards would come. | 1:29:35 | |
But if ever happened in a regular block | 1:29:38 | |
it would be impossible for anyone to commit suicide | 1:29:40 | |
because the guards would walk up and down | 1:29:42 | |
every like five minutes, 10 minutes | 1:29:45 | |
and if anyone commits suicide, | 1:29:47 | |
if anyone done that, everyone would scream and shout | 1:29:48 | |
and then they would come rushing. | 1:29:51 | |
So he wouldn't be hanging longer than like 30 seconds. | 1:29:53 | |
I mean, five guards on a block, it wouldn't happen. | 1:29:56 | |
You know what I mean? | 1:29:59 | |
It's not like you're in isolation, no one can see you. | 1:30:00 | |
So that's when the three guys, | 1:30:03 | |
they decided to commit suicide. | 1:30:05 | |
I found that it was an Alpha block. | 1:30:08 | |
Alpha block is overlooking the sea | 1:30:10 | |
and it's like I said, it's an irregular block. | 1:30:13 | |
It's open and everyone can see each other. | 1:30:17 | |
So then how three guys they're gonna be hanging for ages | 1:30:19 | |
and it was just watching them quietly? | 1:30:22 | |
I mean, without making noise | 1:30:24 | |
and no one's gonna come and take 'em down. | 1:30:25 | |
I can't that happening. | 1:30:27 | |
So that's why I was thinking | 1:30:29 | |
that it could have been when the ERF | 1:30:30 | |
went in and attacked. | 1:30:32 | |
You know, when they attack the guys | 1:30:35 | |
sometimes they just go too over the top. | 1:30:36 | |
Like I said, jumping on you, | 1:30:38 | |
slam in your head, kneeing you. | 1:30:39 | |
I remember now, I lost consciousness once | 1:30:43 | |
from the guards, the ERF attacking me. | 1:30:46 | |
There was one time when I first got to Cuba, | 1:30:50 | |
it was in 2009, 2002, sorry, mid 2002, late 2002. | 1:30:52 | |
I was in isolation and there was... | 1:31:02 | |
They had cameras. | 1:31:07 | |
They were filming. | 1:31:09 | |
We didn't know what it was, | 1:31:10 | |
we thought the news or something | 1:31:11 | |
but it hadn't come on the sides. | 1:31:13 | |
And they were filming like all around | 1:31:15 | |
and they were filming people, doing interviews and stuff. | 1:31:17 | |
So something... | 1:31:20 | |
That's it, I was standing, they came | 1:31:22 | |
and they would do cell searches as well. | 1:31:23 | |
They were searching people's cells. | 1:31:24 | |
We don't know what they were doing this for. | 1:31:26 | |
So, they came in and they were doing | 1:31:28 | |
a totally different system. | 1:31:31 | |
For the cameras, they wouldn't do what they usually do. | 1:31:33 | |
They were acting like the more braver now | 1:31:35 | |
because the cameras are there. | 1:31:37 | |
So they wouldn't put you in your shackles | 1:31:38 | |
and make you go on your knees | 1:31:40 | |
and put you on the shackle like this. | 1:31:41 | |
On your knees, put you on your shackles | 1:31:43 | |
and then, you know? | 1:31:45 | |
They would now use a different system | 1:31:46 | |
and they would open the door. | 1:31:49 | |
They would say, "Stand" | 1:31:50 | |
and they would open the door | 1:31:53 | |
and you'd be standing. | 1:31:54 | |
And then they would say, "Face the wall." | 1:31:55 | |
And you face the wall. | 1:31:57 | |
And I had my hand this and the guard, | 1:31:58 | |
he stuck his finger in the back of my ear like this | 1:32:01 | |
and he was squeezing it, like he's pushing it. | 1:32:06 | |
And it's a pressure point (coughs). | 1:32:09 | |
And he's really, really pushed | 1:32:12 | |
and until it was really painful. | 1:32:14 | |
And he had his hand like here, | 1:32:15 | |
so my natural reaction was to bite his finger. | 1:32:17 | |
And so I bate his finger | 1:32:23 | |
and then they slammed me to the floor | 1:32:25 | |
and they jumped on me and I lost unconsciousness. | 1:32:27 | |
And then I woke up and then I opened my eyes | 1:32:30 | |
and I can see like a massive spotlight | 1:32:33 | |
and loads of people around me. | 1:32:35 | |
And then they was on my chest | 1:32:38 | |
and I could feel my chest, | 1:32:40 | |
but they were still sitting on me. | 1:32:41 | |
Then how I gained consciousness | 1:32:43 | |
and they're still sitting on me | 1:32:44 | |
and my chest felt like caved in. | 1:32:45 | |
So yeah, I remember that the incident | 1:32:47 | |
and that was in isolation as well. | 1:32:49 | |
Man | Do you know what year that was? | 1:32:50 |
That when that was? | 1:32:52 | |
- | That was 2002, like mid. | 1:32:52 |
Probably about, I remember now, | 1:32:55 | |
probably about three months into my stay. | 1:32:58 | |
Three, four months into my stay. | 1:33:00 | |
Man | Did you get interrogated a lot | 1:33:03 |
while you were in Guantanamo? | 1:33:06 | |
- | Yeah, I can't put a number on it to be honest. | 1:33:08 |
A lot of times, maybe 50 times, or some like that. | 1:33:11 | |
And I only stayed there for like two years, | 1:33:14 | |
not like the other guys. | 1:33:16 | |
Man | And did you ever get interrogated | 1:33:17 |
by the Brits as well as Latin Americans? | 1:33:19 | |
- | British will come every five months, they will come. | 1:33:23 |
Man | And would it be any different when the Brits came? | 1:33:29 |
- | Not really, I would tell them... | 1:33:33 |
Exactly that stuff that I've told you, | 1:33:35 | |
I would tell it to them and it'd be even more intense | 1:33:37 | |
because it will be fresh in my mind. | 1:33:40 | |
So when I would sit down, I would just like a robot, | 1:33:42 | |
just telling them exactly what my concerns were. | 1:33:46 | |
And I tell about the medical medical treatment. | 1:33:49 | |
I've got a letter with my solicitor, | 1:33:51 | |
stating that I was complaining about medical treatment | 1:33:54 | |
and that I was refused medical treatment. | 1:33:57 | |
And it's actually on file | 1:33:59 | |
and when I came back, the British denied it. | 1:34:02 | |
So we showed them the letter and then they admitted it | 1:34:06 | |
and then they gave an explanation to it. | 1:34:10 | |
So every time they will come, | 1:34:14 | |
I will tell them like from A to Z, | 1:34:16 | |
exactly what's happening in the block right now. | 1:34:19 | |
I'll say, "Okay, now we're hunger striking." | 1:34:20 | |
I wouldn't give them a chance to speak. | 1:34:22 | |
I wouldn't really. | 1:34:24 | |
I would just blabber on, I would just go on, | 1:34:25 | |
I wouldn't give them a chance to to speak | 1:34:27 | |
and say what they wanna say. | 1:34:30 | |
I'll just use that time for me, basically. | 1:34:31 | |
Man | Why did you refuse medical care? | 1:34:35 |
- | I didn't. | 1:34:37 |
Man | Oh, you didn't? | 1:34:38 |
- | No, sorry. | 1:34:39 |
I said basically that I've been refused | 1:34:41 | |
medical care. | 1:34:45 | |
- | That you've been refused. | |
- | Yeah, so that was written down | 1:34:46 |
by the guy from the foreign office. | 1:34:48 | |
He actually wrote it down | 1:34:50 | |
and that letter was that we had that proof basically. | 1:34:52 | |
But sorry, I have to say, | 1:34:55 | |
they didn't write down every single thing I said | 1:34:56 | |
but this happened just to get in there at this point. | 1:34:59 | |
Man | And what kind of medical care were you asking for | 1:35:01 |
that you were refused? | 1:35:04 | |
- | For my arm, for my feet and I had troubles walking | 1:35:10 |
for like pains in my knees and stuff. | 1:35:14 | |
Man | And who would refuse it? | 1:35:17 |
How would that happen? | 1:35:18 | |
- | They wouldn't take me to, what do you call them? | 1:35:19 |
Man | The clinic? | 1:35:23 |
- | Yeah. | 1:35:24 |
Sorry, that was once if I remember the (mumbles). | 1:35:27 | |
They came to take me to medical. | 1:35:31 | |
They will come to the door and they said medical. | 1:35:33 | |
Anyone who needed the medical, they wouldn't come | 1:35:35 | |
and everyone who didn't need it, they would come. | 1:35:38 | |
(glass knocking) | 1:35:41 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:35:42 | |
(baby crying) | 1:36:01 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:36:03 | |
Sh, sh, sh, sh, sh, sh. | 1:36:08 | |
Man | So you were still not feeling well. | 1:36:13 |
- | Yeah, so basically one day they came to to my block | 1:36:15 |
and I was outside of the regular blocks | 1:36:22 | |
and they said, "Medical." | 1:36:24 | |
And I said to them, "What for?" | 1:36:27 | |
And they said, "We don't know, medical." | 1:36:31 | |
And it's an old man and a young man. | 1:36:34 | |
And I said the them, "I'm okay. | 1:36:36 | |
"You know, I'm fine, thanks." | 1:36:39 | |
And he said, "No, no, you have to go." | 1:36:41 | |
"No, I'm fine." | 1:36:42 | |
He said, "No, you have to go." | 1:36:44 | |
And they know what's gonna happen. | 1:36:46 | |
And some of them wanted to (mumbles) these people. | 1:36:48 | |
So basically they said to come on, you know, | 1:36:52 | |
and I'm not in a state to be attacked by these guys. | 1:36:55 | |
And so basically I said to them, | 1:37:00 | |
"I don't wanna, do I have to go?" | 1:37:05 | |
And then I tried to argue and I did. | 1:37:07 | |
So I thought okay, so I put my arm through, | 1:37:09 | |
they put the cuffs on, | 1:37:11 | |
I turned around, then they put it around my waist. | 1:37:12 | |
This is all before I leave the cell, | 1:37:14 | |
then they've got these hatches at the bottom, | 1:37:15 | |
they opened them up, put shackles on my feet. | 1:37:17 | |
So I'm shackled even before they even opened the door. | 1:37:20 | |
Open the door, they start walking me | 1:37:22 | |
and I got these slippers, the ones that you put, you know, | 1:37:25 | |
there's two toes at the end they're supposed | 1:37:28 | |
to be holding them. | 1:37:31 | |
So I'm wearing those. | 1:37:32 | |
Can you imagine? | 1:37:33 | |
Like I'm missing my big toe. | 1:37:34 | |
So and my feet are very like... | 1:37:36 | |
I haven't got my sensation. | 1:37:38 | |
If he was to stick just a pencil on my foot, | 1:37:40 | |
it'd be like a needle pricking me. | 1:37:43 | |
Of a needle would like... | 1:37:44 | |
I haven't got the sensation of the soles of my feet. | 1:37:46 | |
So here I am walking on gravel, | 1:37:49 | |
like stones, loads of fixed stones. | 1:37:51 | |
I don't know if you've ever been there, you've seen it. | 1:37:54 | |
Man | I have. | 1:37:56 |
- | You've seen the area it's loads of fixed stones | 1:37:57 |
and I'm walking and I'm literally pushing my | 1:37:58 | |
like sensing my left slipper across the ground. | 1:38:02 | |
I try to keep it moving. | 1:38:06 | |
And I have to walk slow. | 1:38:07 | |
So, basically it falls off. | 1:38:10 | |
My slipper falls off and what do they do? | 1:38:12 | |
They slam me to the floor and they jump on me | 1:38:14 | |
and they literally twist my arm | 1:38:18 | |
behind my back and my legs they twist 'em up. | 1:38:20 | |
And then I remember the post man walking past, | 1:38:22 | |
Black postman, he used to come and give the letters, | 1:38:25 | |
like he wrote my postcard home. | 1:38:29 | |
And I remember him looking at me | 1:38:32 | |
and at me like this, then he just walked on. | 1:38:34 | |
And I remember that, I remember that. | 1:38:39 | |
I literally thought to myself, you know, | 1:38:41 | |
I thought, you couldn't even say anything, | 1:38:44 | |
you know I mean? | 1:38:47 | |
It's, I was thinking, you know | 1:38:48 | |
there's gonna be a day is the tables are gonna be turned. | 1:38:50 | |
You know, it's just exactly what I what I just thought. | 1:38:52 | |
'Cause I got to that stage when I just thought, | 1:38:55 | |
you know what? | 1:38:56 | |
What's gonna happen is gonna happen, you know? | 1:38:57 | |
God doesn't burden the soul of more than it can handle. | 1:39:01 | |
So what was gonna happen is gonna happen. | 1:39:04 | |
So anyway, basically, they came with the stretcher | 1:39:05 | |
with wheels on it. | 1:39:08 | |
They put me on it and then he pushed me to, | 1:39:09 | |
on my stomach, with my hand behind my back | 1:39:12 | |
and my legs behind my back. | 1:39:15 | |
They pushed me to them, to the medic, to the doctor. | 1:39:17 | |
And then they put me against the wall | 1:39:20 | |
and then they left me there. | 1:39:23 | |
And then they waited for my turn. | 1:39:24 | |
When a doctor called me, they pushed, | 1:39:26 | |
they rolled me over to the doctor | 1:39:27 | |
and doctor put his arm on my nerves | 1:39:29 | |
and pushed into it, "Does this hurt?" | 1:39:32 | |
And I said, "Yes." | 1:39:33 | |
And he said, "Okay." | 1:39:35 | |
And then he me push me away. | 1:39:37 | |
And I said, "Wait, doctor, doctor." | 1:39:39 | |
I said, "Is that all?" | 1:39:40 | |
He said, "Yeah." | 1:39:41 | |
I said, "Could I have refused medical?" | 1:39:42 | |
He said, "Yeah." | 1:39:45 | |
In their face, right in there in front of your face. | 1:39:46 | |
I said, "Could I ever refused?" | 1:39:47 | |
I think he said, "Yeah, you could have." | 1:39:49 | |
You know what I mean? | 1:39:52 | |
And then that's, it pushed me. | 1:39:53 | |
And then they took me to isolation | 1:39:54 | |
and they threw me into isolation. | 1:39:55 | |
And that's it, they closed the door | 1:40:00 | |
and I had nothing in isolation. | 1:40:01 | |
but for my experience before, | 1:40:02 | |
I was literally, my morale was like high, | 1:40:05 | |
because I was thinking this is just another day. | 1:40:09 | |
It's just, it's not, do you know what I mean? | 1:40:11 | |
It's another... | 1:40:13 | |
It's just amazing, do you know what I mean? | 1:40:15 | |
Like, I wasn't in pain. | 1:40:16 | |
I was pain, I mean, it wasn't stressful, | 1:40:19 | |
I mean, but I was handling it | 1:40:20 | |
because it's happened so many times. | 1:40:22 | |
It's like, I called it Palestine, as well. | 1:40:25 | |
This is Palestine. | 1:40:28 | |
So literally we've got stones and they've got missiles. | 1:40:29 | |
They treat us how Cuba was. | 1:40:33 | |
You don't have to spit at them | 1:40:36 | |
but that's all you can do it through the mesh. | 1:40:38 | |
And even got to the extent | 1:40:40 | |
when they started to put plastic up | 1:40:41 | |
and then you couldn't spit at them. | 1:40:43 | |
Man | Did you ever see a dentist | 1:40:47 |
while you were in Guantanamo? | 1:40:48 | |
- | Good question. | 1:40:50 |
Yeah, I kept asking for a dentist | 1:40:55 | |
and finally they took me to a dentist. | 1:40:57 | |
My tooth, which I haven't got anymore | 1:41:01 | |
it broke at the inside, the filling came out. | 1:41:08 | |
So yeah, the filling came out. | 1:41:11 | |
So they took me to a dentist | 1:41:12 | |
and actually after about three or four months, | 1:41:16 | |
I kept using tissue and I putting it inside the hole, | 1:41:19 | |
just trying to like, hold up. | 1:41:22 | |
So they finally got my dentist called. | 1:41:24 | |
They took me to the dentist | 1:41:27 | |
and then they basically, they put up temporary filling there | 1:41:29 | |
and that's it. | 1:41:38 | |
It's like a white, temporary filling. | 1:41:41 | |
And then they left and then they sent me back. | 1:41:43 | |
Then, like after... | 1:41:46 | |
Yeah and that's it. | 1:41:52 | |
They never took me back and then I was released. | 1:41:54 | |
And when I was released, about two or three weeks | 1:41:57 | |
after released, it came out. | 1:41:59 | |
Man | And why did it take so long | 1:42:02 |
for you to first see the dentist in the first time? | 1:42:03 | |
- | 'Cause everything went through interrogation. | 1:42:07 |
If interrogation didn't want it | 1:42:09 | |
and then it wouldn't happen. | 1:42:10 | |
So, I mean, so I mentioned like my filling, | 1:42:13 | |
the filling was in and then two weeks after I got released, | 1:42:17 | |
the filling came out. | 1:42:19 | |
So imagine I was still in prison at that time | 1:42:20 | |
and the feeling came out. | 1:42:24 | |
The pain that I went through, it was amazing. | 1:42:26 | |
The pain I went through, like, you know how it feels. | 1:42:29 | |
And so basically I was just thinking, | 1:42:32 | |
that was his mercy from God, | 1:42:35 | |
'cause if I was inside and my filling came out | 1:42:36 | |
they're not gonna see me. | 1:42:38 | |
I mean, I'll be screaming my head off | 1:42:39 | |
and nothing's gonna happen. | 1:42:40 | |
So, I mean, (throat clearing)-- | 1:42:42 | |
Man | So the interrogators determined | 1:42:46 |
whether you could see the dentist, | 1:42:48 | |
is that what you're saying? | 1:42:49 | |
- | Exactly. | 1:42:50 |
I developed a rash when I was in the... | 1:42:52 | |
How it started, I was in isolation | 1:42:55 | |
and every week there was bringing the change of clothes. | 1:42:58 | |
And I was in isolation, | 1:43:02 | |
so I wasn't able to keep my same clothes. | 1:43:04 | |
'Cause usually you keep the same clothes | 1:43:07 | |
' cause, you know, the fit that you get you for, | 1:43:08 | |
I'm not gonna get it again, | 1:43:10 | |
they're gonna give me a different size, | 1:43:11 | |
so I'll keep the same as I wash it myself. | 1:43:12 | |
Isolation, you can't do that. | 1:43:14 | |
If you really need a change of clothes and it's dirty, | 1:43:16 | |
you can't do that because there's no sun for it to dry. | 1:43:19 | |
So you have to change your clothes. | 1:43:21 | |
So I changed my clothes, I put them on | 1:43:23 | |
and then I started itching. | 1:43:27 | |
And they stunk basically of this industrial-type detergent, | 1:43:30 | |
like this really strong kind of stuff they use. | 1:43:34 | |
I started scratching and they will actually blow | 1:43:37 | |
using hot air coming from the AC now, not cold, hot air. | 1:43:40 | |
And so I developed this rush | 1:43:45 | |
and I've got it to this date (coughs). | 1:43:47 | |
And I've been diagnosed with it, | 1:43:49 | |
this is something called, | 1:43:50 | |
it stands for the ability to write on skin. | 1:43:55 | |
That's the main word for it, | 1:43:59 | |
but I can't remember the short term they give it. | 1:44:01 | |
But it's the ability to write on skin. | 1:44:06 | |
If you type it into Google Images, | 1:44:07 | |
you come up with people writing on their skin. | 1:44:09 | |
Like just people doing this. | 1:44:11 | |
Man | You mean like scratches on your skin? | 1:44:13 |
- | No, it's not. | 1:44:14 |
It's like, if I was to just do any marker like this, | 1:44:15 | |
it will come up on my skin. | 1:44:17 | |
Like it would actually can write, | 1:44:20 | |
you can write your marker, write my name on | 1:44:21 | |
and it will just come up. | 1:44:22 | |
And that's what it is and that's where I got it. | 1:44:24 | |
And I've still got it to this day. | 1:44:27 | |
They used to give me hydrocortisone cream for it, | 1:44:28 | |
which is a steroid and it's not for that. | 1:44:33 | |
I wasn't... | 1:44:37 | |
And I had it all over my body | 1:44:39 | |
and they never took me in to diagnose it. | 1:44:41 | |
They would just give me different creams, | 1:44:45 | |
some of the hydrocortisone, | 1:44:46 | |
sometimes they would give me some different kinds of cream | 1:44:47 | |
and they never, ever tried to take me to a specialist, | 1:44:51 | |
to a doctor to sit me down, to see what this rash was. | 1:44:54 | |
And until I got out and I was diagnosed with it. | 1:44:58 | |
Woman | Time to switch cards. | 1:45:02 |
Man | Okay. | 1:45:03 |
I won't take much longer then 'cause I think it's... | 1:45:04 | |
- | Okay, so as soon as I send this reply. | 1:45:08 |
Woman | All right. | 1:45:10 |
(phone keys typing) | 1:45:11 | |
- | Oh, sorry. | 1:45:21 |
Man | That's okay. | 1:45:22 |
Did a psychologist ever come to see you? | 1:45:23 | |
Did they ever send a psychologist to you? | 1:45:24 | |
- | Yeah, they had them going around. | 1:45:28 |
They called him, psych doctor. | 1:45:31 | |
That would be the famous word. | 1:45:33 | |
Even though he didn't speak English, | 1:45:36 | |
they know that psych, psych. | 1:45:37 | |
They learn that word. | 1:45:39 | |
But I didn't... | 1:45:42 | |
They couldn't really 'cause, like... | 1:45:46 | |
Yeah, they walk around, | 1:45:50 | |
so yeah, they would ask, "You want psych? | 1:45:51 | |
"You want psych? | 1:45:53 | |
"You want psych?" | 1:45:54 | |
Yeah, that's what it is. | 1:45:55 | |
So, yeah, they would offer it, | 1:45:56 | |
but they can't, obviously they can't force. | 1:45:57 | |
And I think that's something that they knew | 1:46:00 | |
they weren't meant to force. | 1:46:02 | |
Let's see, yeah, they would ask. | 1:46:04 | |
Man | Did you say, you went on hunger strikes, | 1:46:06 |
so you were force fed? | 1:46:08 | |
Did you ever have-- | 1:46:09 | |
- | No, I mean, I wasn't able to reach, like, last | 1:46:10 |
as long as those guys... | 1:46:14 | |
I mean, I think the longest I've done was about three days | 1:46:16 | |
and after that I was just gone. | 1:46:19 | |
Yeah, so... | 1:46:22 | |
Man | Did the Red Cross ever represent you in Guantanamo? | 1:46:23 |
- | Yeah, they came. | 1:46:29 |
They wasn't very helpful, I mean, | 1:46:33 | |
I don't think they didn't really do much for us, | 1:46:35 | |
I don't think. | 1:46:37 | |
Man | I don't have too many more questions. | 1:46:40 |
Is this something you want to? | 1:46:42 | |
Right before we go into (mumbles). | 1:46:43 | |
You met with some lawyers right? | 1:46:46 | |
Before you left Guantanamo? | 1:46:48 | |
- | Before I left, when the-- | 1:46:49 |
Woman | Sorry. | 1:46:54 |
- | I left when what's he called? | 1:46:55 |
What's his name? | 1:46:57 | |
Salem, Osama Bin Laden's driver, | 1:46:58 | |
his name's Salem Hamdan. | 1:47:02 | |
Man | Yeah, Hamdan. | 1:47:04 |
- | Yeah, I was opposite him in an isolation. | 1:47:04 |
And then he was the first one who got a lawyer. | 1:47:09 | |
Lawyer, came for him. | 1:47:12 | |
And he come back from interrogation with his lawyer. | 1:47:14 | |
And he told everyone in the news, | 1:47:20 | |
he said, you know, "The lawyer is asking me | 1:47:21 | |
"to be a witness against these people, | 1:47:24 | |
"certain people in America." | 1:47:29 | |
And I wanted to start laughing, | 1:47:32 | |
because that's not what a lawyer does, | 1:47:33 | |
a lawyer is there to defend you and stuff. | 1:47:35 | |
So I remember that. | 1:47:37 | |
And then laughing immediately after Hamdan left. | 1:47:38 | |
Man | So, do you think he really saw a lawyer? | 1:47:40 |
- | Yeah, he did, yeah. | 1:47:42 |
I think they tried a little game with him, | 1:47:43 | |
I think I'm sure they must have. | 1:47:45 | |
Man | But you never saw a lawyer there. | 1:47:47 |
- | No, I never. | 1:47:49 |
Man | Could you describe how it was that you left? | 1:47:52 |
How did that happen? | 1:47:53 | |
- | Just one question | |
- | Before you do that? | 1:47:55 |
- | For sure, take it, yeah. | |
Woman | You talked about your friend Ahmed. | 1:47:57 |
I was wondering, were there certain core people | 1:47:58 | |
who are oftentimes resisting or leading | 1:48:00 | |
and organizing on the blocks? | 1:48:04 | |
- | Yeah, I wouldn't say, yeah. | 1:48:08 |
Heard the influence, yeah, | 1:48:13 | |
they called him, Ahmed, they called him, | 1:48:14 | |
interrogators, I think, it must've been interrogators, | 1:48:17 | |
they called him the General, because of his tactics. | 1:48:20 | |
Basically his way is the way he come across. | 1:48:26 | |
But he wasn't really, it was just the way he spoke. | 1:48:30 | |
But really a lot of people didn't really | 1:48:33 | |
wanna listen to him. | 1:48:37 | |
Some people didn't really wanna want to listen, | 1:48:39 | |
some people did. | 1:48:41 | |
So he wasn't that influential as they thought, | 1:48:42 | |
but they called him the General and they put him on that. | 1:48:44 | |
And they framed him. | 1:48:47 | |
I was in isolation and he came back from interrogation | 1:48:49 | |
and then I asked him like, "What did they say?" | 1:48:54 | |
He was on the other side of the block, remember? | 1:48:56 | |
And he said, "He's one of ages." | 1:48:58 | |
And I said, "What did they say?" | 1:49:00 | |
And he said he didn't wanna say. | 1:49:02 | |
So I screamed I said (mumbles) | 1:49:04 | |
tell me what they said and I shouted at him, | 1:49:09 | |
I got angry of him. | 1:49:11 | |
So then I forced him to say | 1:49:13 | |
then he said, "Okay, they said..." | 1:49:14 | |
They trying to be wise, you know, | 1:49:16 | |
I didn't want to like get everyone worried and stuff. | 1:49:17 | |
But he said, they said, | 1:49:19 | |
like about five or six people sat with him in interrogation | 1:49:21 | |
and they said, "So listen..." | 1:49:25 | |
They said they framed him | 1:49:27 | |
and said, "Listen, get out of the spotlight." | 1:49:28 | |
"And otherwise we're gonna either | 1:49:32 | |
"I sort of like for you to see," | 1:49:34 | |
Or something like that. | 1:49:36 | |
They really, really frightened him. | 1:49:36 | |
They must have, they really, really... | 1:49:37 | |
And he told me this but I forgot totally, | 1:49:41 | |
exactly what they said to him. | 1:49:43 | |
And then after this he never did. | 1:49:44 | |
But they said, "Get out of the spotlight, | 1:49:47 | |
"otherwise, blah, blah, blah, blah." | 1:49:49 | |
But, and then basically, so we continue to do what he does. | 1:49:51 | |
And it was nothing big. | 1:49:54 | |
It wasn't like for example, | 1:49:56 | |
someone would come to the Isolation block | 1:49:57 | |
and they wouldn't have like a blanket, you know? | 1:50:01 | |
And a mat with them and the AC would be blowing | 1:50:04 | |
and he would be like on metal with nothing. | 1:50:06 | |
So he would say and then call for the guards. | 1:50:09 | |
Saying, "Guards, can you pick a number, five or something? | 1:50:12 | |
"Hasn't got his blanket and Matt, can you get it for him?" | 1:50:17 | |
And they wouldn't get it. | 1:50:20 | |
So he would say, "Brothers, you know, your brother | 1:50:21 | |
"in number five hasn't got a blanket and a mat. | 1:50:25 | |
"Can you, you know, I mean, | 1:50:31 | |
"it's not fair that we've got blanket, mats and he hasn't. | 1:50:32 | |
"Everyone throw theirs outside. | 1:50:35 | |
"When they come give the food | 1:50:36 | |
"and they open the hatchets, throw yours outside." | 1:50:37 | |
So everyone will do that. | 1:50:40 | |
And then they will bring his blanket and give it to him. | 1:50:41 | |
So that's what he would do, you know what I mean? | 1:50:43 | |
He wouldn't... | 1:50:46 | |
(baby mumbling) | 1:50:47 | |
Yeah, so stuff like that. | 1:50:53 | |
So it wouldn't be like, I mean, what can you do? | 1:50:55 | |
What can you organize there? | 1:50:56 | |
Do you know what I mean? | 1:50:58 | |
Apart from a hunger strike. | 1:51:00 | |
Man | Were there any guards who are nice to you? | 1:51:03 |
Who did something | 1:51:05 | |
special to you? | 1:51:06 | |
- | Yeah, that's | |
a good question. | 1:51:07 | |
That's a good question | 1:51:08 | |
because there was like, I would say maybe 5% | 1:51:09 | |
of the guards were okay and the rest weren't. | 1:51:13 | |
So what we would do, everyone would know | 1:51:17 | |
and a lot of people would say. | 1:51:19 | |
That 'cause say, you know there will be people | 1:51:20 | |
always saying, you know, | 1:51:22 | |
the good guards, be okay with them | 1:51:24 | |
the evil ones, you know, do as you please. | 1:51:27 | |
And won't say, you never know, | 1:51:30 | |
they could become Muslim one day | 1:51:31 | |
and that could (mumbles) and you never know | 1:51:33 | |
what's coming ahead. | 1:51:36 | |
So you'd think to yourself, become Muslim? | 1:51:37 | |
Are you for real. | 1:51:40 | |
But because that's how Islam is. | 1:51:42 | |
It's like, you know what I mean? | 1:51:44 | |
Obviously you defend yourself, | 1:51:45 | |
you sign up of your rights, | 1:51:47 | |
but at the same time, you have to have this soft | 1:51:48 | |
humble kind of attitude with people of peace. | 1:51:50 | |
And I have to obviously have to associate | 1:51:55 | |
with people who want trouble. | 1:51:56 | |
So this is Islam basically. | 1:51:58 | |
And so basically, you know, | 1:52:00 | |
and it happened exactly, it happened. | 1:52:03 | |
I say, "Maybe now it makes sense." | 1:52:06 | |
So yeah, and basically we will be nice to the nice guards | 1:52:08 | |
and bad to the bad guards. | 1:52:10 | |
And that's it basically. | 1:52:13 | |
I mean, as much as they were tormenting us, | 1:52:14 | |
we were trying to torment them, | 1:52:17 | |
'cause otherwise-- | 1:52:19 | |
Man | And what would nice guards do? | 1:52:22 |
How, like-- | 1:52:23 | |
- | There'll be guards, for example, what they will do, | 1:52:24 |
like, for example, what I've done for me, | 1:52:27 | |
these guards, they open the door for me literally. | 1:52:29 | |
And I walked out like this. | 1:52:33 | |
And they asked me, "What block or | 1:52:34 | |
"what cell do you wanna go into? | 1:52:37 | |
"What friend do you wanna meet?" | 1:52:38 | |
So I'll pick like a certain person | 1:52:40 | |
and then they open the doors for me | 1:52:43 | |
and I walked and they opened the door for him. | 1:52:44 | |
And I walked in and sat with him | 1:52:47 | |
and we sat next to each other and we were speaking | 1:52:47 | |
and it was just amazing. | 1:52:50 | |
And then, but that was like I said, | 1:52:52 | |
like even probably less than 5% | 1:52:55 | |
and that was something unusual. | 1:52:56 | |
And it would happen to a lot of the guys | 1:53:00 | |
and a lot of the prisoners. | 1:53:03 | |
And that was the one of the amazing things, | 1:53:05 | |
that sometimes they would probably give you | 1:53:07 | |
extra food or something. | 1:53:09 | |
But if they ever found out, | 1:53:13 | |
then that could have been, you know I mean? | 1:53:14 | |
But I mean, they saw and these are Black guards as well. | 1:53:16 | |
They saw and I would talk to the Black guards a lot | 1:53:19 | |
and I would say to them, "Can't you relate?" | 1:53:22 | |
"Can't you relate to what we're going through?" | 1:53:25 | |
It was only 50 years ago that your granddad | 1:53:27 | |
or something was being burnt to the steak | 1:53:31 | |
and they were caught in snare traps and sent to... | 1:53:34 | |
I actually learnt this history from Cuba, from the guards. | 1:53:39 | |
Actually I kept asking interrogators and stuff | 1:53:42 | |
and they were telling me all this stuff | 1:53:43 | |
that they'd done. | 1:53:45 | |
How it history... | 1:53:46 | |
How the Black people came about. | 1:53:47 | |
And I start to use this on the Black guards. | 1:53:49 | |
And such to make them understand basically, | 1:53:52 | |
like, can you not see? | 1:53:54 | |
And here you are, wearing an American flag on your shoulder | 1:53:56 | |
and oppressing, you know? | 1:53:59 | |
And some of them will actually just stay quiet and listen | 1:54:03 | |
or they would actually think about it. | 1:54:05 | |
So yeah, we would preach, we would. | 1:54:09 | |
Yeah and I think maybe that's why they done that, | 1:54:14 | |
maybe 'cause they could relate. | 1:54:18 | |
And you know... | 1:54:20 | |
Man | So how was it when you heard about | 1:54:22 |
that you were gonna go home, | 1:54:25 | |
since you said you were in isolation? | 1:54:27 | |
How did that whole thing happen? | 1:54:29 | |
- | Yeah, okay, going home, I was in isolation | 1:54:31 |
and there's a story behind that | 1:54:37 | |
if you want having a story that-- | 1:54:38 | |
Man | Yeah, I'd like to. | 1:54:40 |
- | Basically, a year-and-a-half previous to that, | 1:54:43 |
I was beside in isolation again, | 1:54:47 | |
and a guy next door, | 1:54:50 | |
'cause guard said you can't talk to the guy next door | 1:54:51 | |
'cause it's metal, but there's holes in between | 1:54:54 | |
so you're able to speak to the guy next door. | 1:54:56 | |
So he taught me a supplication. | 1:55:00 | |
He said, "If you say it, a lot really | 1:55:04 | |
"is supplication of distress." | 1:55:06 | |
You say it... | 1:55:09 | |
(door clicking open) | 1:55:10 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:55:11 | |
He said basically, "If you say it..." | 1:55:15 | |
You know, he said, "There's a story to the sheikh." | 1:55:18 | |
He said this supplication, he was in prison. | 1:55:19 | |
And three days after he said the supplication, | 1:55:22 | |
he was released from prison. | 1:55:23 | |
So he taught me. | 1:55:25 | |
I said, "Okay, teach me." | 1:55:26 | |
So he taught me it and I learned it and then I forgot it. | 1:55:27 | |
And then a year-and-a-half later, | 1:55:31 | |
I was beside him in isolation again, | 1:55:32 | |
as I said, "Remember supplication you told me before, | 1:55:34 | |
"what is it?" | 1:55:36 | |
So he taught me it again. | 1:55:37 | |
So I said it and it wasn't even days. | 1:55:38 | |
Then, they brung (mumbles). | 1:55:41 | |
And when I talked to the guys, | 1:55:44 | |
they brung him into isolation | 1:55:45 | |
for a day only, just to tell me the news. | 1:55:47 | |
And he told me that the Red Cross came | 1:55:50 | |
and said that five people are gonna be released. | 1:55:53 | |
But they didn't say who. | 1:55:56 | |
So he gave me the news | 1:56:06 | |
and then they took him back to his cell. | 1:56:07 | |
Then it was after two weeks, basically, | 1:56:10 | |
that's when they started the process. | 1:56:12 | |
They took me to interrogation | 1:56:14 | |
and he started fit me up for these dodgy clothes. | 1:56:15 | |
Like this jean clothes. | 1:56:18 | |
like to see if they fit and shoes and blah, blah, blah. | 1:56:21 | |
And I felt we just wanted them acts, they always do. | 1:56:24 | |
They used to put people on the bus | 1:56:26 | |
and say, "You going home." | 1:56:29 | |
And say, "Okay, now we've got a couple of more questions." | 1:56:30 | |
And they'll bring them back and say, | 1:56:34 | |
"No, no you was lying." | 1:56:35 | |
So they always used to say, | 1:56:37 | |
"You're gonna go home, just answer these questions." | 1:56:38 | |
So when they've done to to me-- | 1:56:39 | |
(baby crying) | 1:56:41 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:56:42 | |
(lips smacking) | 1:56:48 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:56:50 | |
(distant crowd chattering) | 1:56:53 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:57:05 | |
Woman | We're gonna go upstairs. | 1:57:14 |
You wanna go upstairs with us? | 1:57:16 | |
Man | I got you a toy, you wanna see it? | 1:57:17 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:57:19 | |
Man | Are we filming? | 1:57:20 |
Woman | Not really. | 1:57:23 |
- | What was I saying? | 1:57:24 |
Man | That you were two weeks in isolation | 1:57:25 |
and they were making you wear these new clothes. | 1:57:26 | |
- | So just, they start to fit me up for these clothes | 1:57:30 |
that I'll be wearing to go home. | 1:57:34 | |
And they said to me, "Just got some last questions | 1:57:36 | |
"we need to ask you." | 1:57:38 | |
And this and that. | 1:57:39 | |
And I was like, "Okay, okay." | 1:57:40 | |
I was like literally with my whole heart, | 1:57:42 | |
I did not believe that I would be going home. | 1:57:44 | |
And they-- | 1:57:47 | |
(hands clapping) | 1:57:51 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:57:52 | |
- | So, I mean, I'll never, ever believe that. | 1:57:58 |
They dressed me in their clothes and they put the shoes | 1:58:00 | |
on me and everything. | 1:58:03 | |
And it tried to make it seem like I'm gonna go home | 1:58:04 | |
and I just literally not believe it. | 1:58:06 | |
They even brung in a guy and said to him | 1:58:08 | |
that you can say goodbye to him tonight. | 1:58:09 | |
He's one of the (mumbles) guys. | 1:58:11 | |
He said, "Say goodbye to him | 1:58:13 | |
"and 'cause you know, I mean, you're leaving." | 1:58:15 | |
I was like, "I certainly don't believe them. | 1:58:18 | |
"And this is a bunch of lies." | 1:58:20 | |
And I mean, literally I did not believe it. | 1:58:21 | |
And it was true though. | 1:58:24 | |
But after a little while it took us to isolation | 1:58:24 | |
they put all five of us in isolation | 1:58:27 | |
in India Block and they set up these tents outside. | 1:58:29 | |
(door clicking open) | 1:58:33 | |
And the first tent had-- | 1:58:34 | |
(baby laughing) | 1:58:35 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 1:58:47 | |
So they put us in isolation in the block, five of us. | 1:59:01 | |
The first five British that were released | 1:59:04 | |
and they set up these three tents on the gravel or outside. | 1:59:06 | |
And the first tent was the Red Cross, | 1:59:11 | |
the second tent was the Americans | 1:59:14 | |
and the third wasn't a tent, really, just the seating area, | 1:59:17 | |
it was for the British when they came. | 1:59:20 | |
And so I was the last one to be taken out. | 1:59:23 | |
One was taken out, four guys came back | 1:59:26 | |
and then they all came back with the same story. | 1:59:28 | |
The Red Cross... | 1:59:29 | |
I mean, sorry, the American said we're not going home | 1:59:30 | |
'cause we didn't sign a piece of paper. | 1:59:32 | |
So when I went out, I had all this information in my head. | 1:59:35 | |
So I asked the Red Cross. | 1:59:40 | |
He sat with me, said to me, "Are you're happy | 1:59:42 | |
"to go back to England." | 1:59:43 | |
"You're gonna be set back," blah, blah. | 1:59:45 | |
He said, "Do you fear for your safety?" | 1:59:47 | |
Blah blah. | 1:59:49 | |
So I said to him, "No, I'm okay to go back. | 1:59:50 | |
"And you know, I don't fear." | 1:59:51 | |
And then he really didn't say nothing. | 1:59:54 | |
He didn't want to offer any information. | 1:59:56 | |
I said, "So what's gonna happen?" | 1:59:58 | |
As he didn't really wanna say. | 1:59:59 | |
So I said to him, "Is it true that if I don't... | 2:00:01 | |
"There's a piece of paper that they're gonna ask me to sign. | 2:00:04 | |
"And if I don't sign it, I won't go home. | 2:00:08 | |
"Is that true?" | 2:00:10 | |
And then he's like, "No, it's not true." | 2:00:11 | |
He wasn't really forthcoming. | 2:00:17 | |
He could have said no and that's a lot of rubbish | 2:00:19 | |
and that's not true and don't worry. | 2:00:21 | |
But he was like really hesitant | 2:00:23 | |
and didn't really wanna even say no. | 2:00:25 | |
So I went to the next tent | 2:00:26 | |
and they had a video camera and they had the digital camera | 2:00:28 | |
and it was a lady sitting there | 2:00:33 | |
and I had to sit in front of her | 2:00:34 | |
and she read from the paper | 2:00:35 | |
and it said something like, | 2:00:37 | |
"You was caught the battlefield. | 2:00:39 | |
"You're Al-Qaeda and Taliban and you will never fight, | 2:00:41 | |
"promise you never go back to fight against," or something. | 2:00:47 | |
"To America, or something, again." | 2:00:50 | |
And so basically, and they said | 2:00:52 | |
they gave me a piece of paper, "Here, sign." | 2:00:55 | |
So I said to him, "I'm not gonna sign that." | 2:00:57 | |
(mumbles) what's it to them. | 2:00:59 | |
So why should I sign that? | 2:01:03 | |
That's not true. | 2:01:04 | |
And then they just stood there, like, | 2:01:06 | |
and then that's it. | 2:01:08 | |
That was their last effort, that was a little prank, | 2:01:09 | |
last little prank they could try and pull. | 2:01:12 | |
And then I was taken back | 2:01:14 | |
and then night time we came out | 2:01:15 | |
and then the British Officials were there | 2:01:16 | |
and they said, "Okay, we're gonna take you back. | 2:01:18 | |
"And the plane is gonna come, | 2:01:20 | |
"it's gonna put you on" and blah, blah. | 2:01:21 | |
So he talked us through it and they went back. | 2:01:23 | |
And then the next morning, | 2:01:26 | |
and then some of us said, | 2:01:28 | |
"Okay, let's do in a sheet is our songs, | 2:01:30 | |
"Islamic song, poetry and stuff." | 2:01:33 | |
I said, "Let's do like poetry." | 2:01:41 | |
So they done it. | 2:01:43 | |
They done like, you know, like it's a go away party, | 2:01:44 | |
going away party, you know, you're getting set free. | 2:01:46 | |
So everyone on the block is like really happy | 2:01:47 | |
and you're like singing and (mumbles) | 2:01:50 | |
and like giving advice. | 2:01:51 | |
When you go out, make sure you guys are together | 2:01:52 | |
and you speak together and you tell them what's happening. | 2:01:54 | |
And then we didn't get released that day, that night. | 2:01:58 | |
Then the next night, okay, they're gonna go this night. | 2:02:01 | |
And then we started doing these poetry songs | 2:02:03 | |
and we didn't get released. | 2:02:05 | |
And then the third night, we've done the same thing again | 2:02:07 | |
and they're happy as if they're gonna leave. | 2:02:10 | |
It's amazing that it happened. | 2:02:11 | |
I was really sad, I was really like sad | 2:02:12 | |
'cause I was leaving them behind. | 2:02:13 | |
And then that night, we didn't leave. | 2:02:16 | |
Yeah, that night. | 2:02:18 | |
We left after that night, actually in the morning. | 2:02:19 | |
And there was cameras, it was amazing, | 2:02:22 | |
cameras with heavy lighting on it. | 2:02:26 | |
And there was loads of guards. | 2:02:28 | |
And the guards never knew. | 2:02:31 | |
And it was certain guys that, you know, | 2:02:32 | |
I had built up a relationship with, | 2:02:34 | |
like a hate relationship. | 2:02:36 | |
Like they were evil. | 2:02:38 | |
And when I was leaving and I was like, "In your face." | 2:02:40 | |
I was like that. | 2:02:44 | |
As the cameras were there, | 2:02:45 | |
I didn't wanna really say anything too much. | 2:02:46 | |
So I was just like, "In your face." | 2:02:48 | |
And I didn't wanna... | 2:02:49 | |
Sh, sh, sh, sh. | 2:02:52 | |
(speaking in foreign language) | 2:02:54 | |
So, I was basically indirectly saying it. | 2:03:11 | |
Like I said it very softly in that, | 2:03:16 | |
but he knew I was looking at him | 2:03:17 | |
and looked at him and I said, "In your face." | 2:03:18 | |
And then I just calmly walked off. | 2:03:21 | |
Like I was happy as I didn't want to show them that. | 2:03:23 | |
And then they walked me to a school bus, | 2:03:25 | |
with cardboarded out windows. | 2:03:29 | |
It was cardboard in all the windows, | 2:03:33 | |
so you couldn't see out. | 2:03:34 | |
And then two guards on either side. | 2:03:35 | |
And basically everyone was put... | 2:03:38 | |
You know, everyone had two guards to them | 2:03:40 | |
on the bus at the back and then we were taken. | 2:03:42 | |
And we wasn't able to see, obviously this time going out. | 2:03:45 | |
But at the same, but we could the same thing, | 2:03:49 | |
we could feel going over water | 2:03:52 | |
and onto the land that we came to, like an air base. | 2:03:53 | |
And then when we got off the bus | 2:03:57 | |
it was like pretty amazing sight, actually. | 2:03:58 | |
It was a massive, like, it was one of the planes | 2:04:00 | |
that lifts the tanks. | 2:04:03 | |
And it was like far, like 100 meters or something away. | 2:04:05 | |
Like literally, like 100 meters away. | 2:04:10 | |
And there was American guards | 2:04:12 | |
like at a walk through like two lines | 2:04:15 | |
of American guards on either side left or right. | 2:04:18 | |
And behind them were British Army guys | 2:04:20 | |
behind left and right. | 2:04:23 | |
I take a long walk up to the plane. | 2:04:25 | |
And then they took the cuffs off me | 2:04:29 | |
and then I was able to walk without the cuffs | 2:04:30 | |
up the ramp and I sat down. | 2:04:33 | |
And that was my-- | 2:04:37 | |
Man | So, on the plane you weren't handcuffed? | 2:04:38 |
- | No, I wasn't handcuffed at all. | 2:04:40 |
(speaking in foreign language) | 2:04:43 | |
Man | And when you landed in Britain, what happened? | 2:04:46 |
- | When I landed in Britain, | 2:04:50 |
they're very diplomatic in Britain. | 2:04:51 | |
They will never, you know, they say the British, | 2:04:53 | |
they they dig a hole, or dig a hole with a needle | 2:04:55 | |
and empty a fish tank or something with a spoon | 2:05:00 | |
or something like that. | 2:05:02 | |
They're very, very diplomatic. | 2:05:03 | |
And even on the plane, I could tell, | 2:05:05 | |
I can see you could see straight from somewhere, | 2:05:06 | |
you just know that this guy doesn't like me, | 2:05:07 | |
just is, you know, he only just acted. | 2:05:09 | |
So they gave us Kit Kat chocolates on the plane. | 2:05:12 | |
And they were actually normal police officers. | 2:05:14 | |
I know what all police officers are like, you know I mean? | 2:05:17 | |
'Cause you never ever get them... | 2:05:21 | |
It's rare that you get, that not racist is rare. | 2:05:23 | |
So let alone prejudice. | 2:05:28 | |
So, basically they took me to the police station | 2:05:30 | |
and they took my fingerprints nine times. | 2:05:33 | |
On the one arm for nine times, they took it. | 2:05:36 | |
And the first time he was like taking my fingerprints | 2:05:40 | |
and then he said, "Oh, do it again." | 2:05:45 | |
And they took my fingerprints. | 2:05:48 | |
And then I think the third time, I've got it, | 2:05:49 | |
I've got the picture that this guy's taken of me. | 2:05:51 | |
So I said to him... | 2:05:55 | |
So he done it in the fourth time | 2:05:56 | |
and says, "No, no, no, you missed it." | 2:05:57 | |
And like do it again and I kept binding him up. | 2:05:59 | |
So I was as diplomatic as they were. | 2:06:03 | |
And then when I was in interrogation, | 2:06:07 | |
they was asking me these questions. | 2:06:09 | |
I told them to ask any questions. | 2:06:10 | |
And then they came to me, said to me, | 2:06:12 | |
"Okay, can you please sign the fingerprints?" | 2:06:15 | |
And I was like, "Okay, for the record, | 2:06:18 | |
"let me just count how many." | 2:06:21 | |
And accounted one, two, three, four, | 2:06:22 | |
five, six, seven, eight, nine. | 2:06:25 | |
Okay, so I kept signed one by one. | 2:06:27 | |
Amazing, amazing, you know what I mean? | 2:06:30 | |
They actually let me sign all of them. | 2:06:31 | |
If I ever asked, if I ever made a complaint or something | 2:06:35 | |
do you know what I mean? | 2:06:37 | |
And then they took my pictures, they really took my pictures | 2:06:39 | |
and they really, really took my pictures. | 2:06:44 | |
They're like, "No, we have to 'cause it's..." | 2:06:46 | |
And my lawyer said, "No, they have to." | 2:06:48 | |
You know it was intimidating. | 2:06:50 | |
They said, "Okay, cover your arm, cover your feet. | 2:06:53 | |
"And then your legs and this and that." | 2:06:55 | |
And they took ages to get, took a million pictures. | 2:06:57 | |
And it was obviously like for a wind up as well. | 2:07:01 | |
So that was that room. | 2:07:05 | |
So, basic that they was like, | 2:07:06 | |
if you never ever knew what they were doing, | 2:07:08 | |
but they would slight tricks, | 2:07:11 | |
then you would have thought like | 2:07:14 | |
that was excellent treatment, five star. | 2:07:14 | |
Yeah, because do you know what I mean? | 2:07:17 | |
Man | And then you were released. | 2:07:22 |
- | And yeah, then I was put into a car, into a van. | 2:07:24 |
And it was this Mercedes. | 2:07:28 | |
and we had to put our heads down. | 2:07:29 | |
And there were massive flashes were going off in there. | 2:07:31 | |
And then we went to another police station, | 2:07:35 | |
then from there, we jumped | 2:07:37 | |
into a normal car set up normally. | 2:07:38 | |
And then we drove to my lawyer's office. | 2:07:40 | |
Man | Did you know you had a lawyer | 2:07:46 |
while you were in Guantanamo? | 2:07:48 | |
- | That's a good one. | 2:07:50 |
That's a good one because my brother | 2:07:51 | |
wrote me a letter and he wrote, and it was censored. | 2:07:53 | |
It was censored, I looked at the letter | 2:07:59 | |
and he was censored and I was thinking, oh my gosh | 2:08:00 | |
a hell of a trick that if you get | 2:08:02 | |
like this kind of like the level ones they had this perfume | 2:08:05 | |
like some sort of a perfume, like a small kind of bottle. | 2:08:10 | |
And if you rubbed that on the area, | 2:08:14 | |
which is a phased out | 2:08:19 | |
- | Blacked out. | |
- | And put up to the light, | 2:08:23 |
you get to see what's on it. | 2:08:24 | |
- | Really? | |
- | So, yeah, so I was like, "Okay, let me try it." | 2:08:25 |
So I done it, I got this perfume. | 2:08:28 | |
I thought, how do I got it? | 2:08:29 | |
It was from online and I happened to get my hands on some | 2:08:32 | |
and then I put some on there | 2:08:35 | |
and I put it up to the light and I read. | 2:08:37 | |
And my brother said that he opened up a business, | 2:08:40 | |
a new business, a new shop. | 2:08:42 | |
'Cause it's a sign where they advertise the same letter. | 2:08:43 | |
He opened up a new shop in a certain place and that's it. | 2:08:47 | |
And then he said, "We got you a lawyer," | 2:08:51 | |
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. | 2:08:53 | |
And then, okay. | 2:08:55 | |
And then afterwards I destroyed that letter. | 2:08:56 | |
So they couldn't... | 2:08:59 | |
They didn't know that I had that information. | 2:08:59 | |
So, I left it and I never ever told them. | 2:09:01 | |
And then when I got released, | 2:09:05 | |
while I was in a police station here, | 2:09:08 | |
they said to me, what's it called? | 2:09:10 | |
Do you want a lawyer? | 2:09:16 | |
They asked me for a lawyer. | 2:09:17 | |
And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, I've got a lawyer. | 2:09:19 | |
And they actually tried to get me one of their lawyers. | 2:09:24 | |
I said, "No, I've got a lawyer." | 2:09:27 | |
And she was actually waiting for hours. | 2:09:30 | |
She was angry, 'cause she wanted me to speak to her. | 2:09:33 | |
She was waiting for hours and hours. | 2:09:35 | |
Yeah, she was actually furious actually, | 2:09:38 | |
because she's like, she's quite old as well. | 2:09:40 | |
She's just like really, really angry. | 2:09:42 | |
How long she was waiting for. | 2:09:43 | |
So they've really-- | 2:09:45 | |
Man | Which date did you get that letter | 2:09:46 |
that you were able to figure out you have a lawyer? | 2:09:48 | |
- | I can't remember. | 2:09:52 |
Probably 2003, mid 2003, probably late 2003, yeah. | 2:09:54 | |
Man | I never-- | 2:10:00 |
- | Or mid 2003, yeah. | 2:10:00 |
Man | And who had this perfume? | 2:10:02 |
Who was able to carry this perfume? | 2:10:04 | |
- | I don't know, I don't know how I got it. | 2:10:05 |
Got my hands on it. | 2:10:06 | |
But sometimes you get these guards, | 2:10:08 | |
who'd wait until their shift comes. | 2:10:10 | |
It's prison ain't it? | 2:10:12 | |
Like you always get these these opportunities and stuff, | 2:10:13 | |
and you asked them, you know, ask them | 2:10:17 | |
you want something from far away or something impossible, | 2:10:20 | |
one of the guards can get it. | 2:10:23 | |
And even though he's only smuggled out letters | 2:10:24 | |
he knows I've actually written letters. | 2:10:26 | |
Man | How did he smuggle them out? | 2:10:28 |
- | He gave them to guards and they went | 2:10:29 |
and posted them for him. | 2:10:30 | |
- | Really? | 2:10:32 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | And this like already when he was inside, | 2:10:33 |
it was absolutely amazing. | 2:10:35 | |
This letter, I think I couldn't even read it | 2:10:36 | |
'cause the English was so perfect. | 2:10:38 | |
I didn't understand what he was saying, | 2:10:41 | |
but he was demanding for his rights and stuff | 2:10:43 | |
and was an actually excellent letter. | 2:10:45 | |
And it go out before. | 2:10:47 | |
Yeah, he actually gave it to a guard and he posted it. | 2:10:49 | |
Man | And You saw (mumbles) while you were in Guantanamo? | 2:10:53 |
- | I saw (mumbles), no, I didn't see him I Guantanamo, | 2:10:56 |
I saw him when I was in Kandahar. | 2:10:58 | |
So I'm once, but yeah, he wasn't Echo'd up | 2:10:59 | |
throughout his whole stay in Guantanamo | 2:11:02 | |
apart from his last month, or something (sniffles). | 2:11:04 | |
Man | Did you attitude change about America | 2:11:09 |
from the time you've before you were captured, | 2:11:14 | |
to, you know, when you were released? | 2:11:17 | |
Did you have a different opinion of America? | 2:11:18 | |
- | Yeah, definitely. | 2:11:22 |
The opinion before was like, | 2:11:25 | |
I was brainwashed before, basically. | 2:11:27 | |
Because before, obviously, I've grown up | 2:11:29 | |
watching all the movies. | 2:11:31 | |
I mean, there's not one movie. | 2:11:32 | |
I mean, it's like, you know, so I lived in America | 2:11:33 | |
when it comes to all the films and stuff. | 2:11:36 | |
There's nothing here that I would have saw. | 2:11:37 | |
"Dukes of Hazzard" when I was young, you know? | 2:11:40 | |
"The A-Team," "Incredible Hulk," all that, | 2:11:42 | |
that was my... | 2:11:46 | |
When I was young, I was growing up watching all that. | 2:11:49 | |
So, I never ever thought anything bad about America. | 2:11:52 | |
If anything, whoever watches the movies and stuff, | 2:11:55 | |
when they're young, they wanna go to America. | 2:11:58 | |
But it was amazing when, was it called? | 2:12:02 | |
After my incarceration and I really understood. | 2:12:06 | |
And afterwards I'll start learning the history, | 2:12:10 | |
I started understanding where America came from. | 2:12:12 | |
And a lot of things, a lot of things. | 2:12:16 | |
And even like a lot of things, there's so much, | 2:12:19 | |
so many things that propaganda | 2:12:22 | |
then you think, that's like from landing on the moon. | 2:12:24 | |
When I was young, I believe that landed on the moon. | 2:12:27 | |
I hope you don't. | 2:12:32 | |
I hope you don't believe that (chuckles). | 2:12:33 | |
Man | You don't believe that now? | 2:12:34 |
- | No, definitely, with my whole heart, | 2:12:35 |
I did not believe that. | 2:12:37 | |
And I started to Google recently | 2:12:38 | |
and it's just like, it's been disproved. | 2:12:41 | |
And even back then, the Chinese and Russians | 2:12:43 | |
disproved it. | 2:12:45 | |
Five points they found or more, I think, | 2:12:46 | |
in that descent, doesn't move or something like that. | 2:12:49 | |
You know what I mean? | 2:12:55 | |
It was like stupid. | 2:12:55 | |
I mean, the sun or something. | 2:12:56 | |
It was definitely a fake, do you believe it? | 2:12:58 | |
Man | Well, they say the young people don't believe it | 2:13:01 |
and the older people do. | 2:13:03 | |
So from America as well, | 2:13:05 | |
- | No. | |
Man | They say. | 2:13:07 |
- | No you can't. | 2:13:08 |
'Cause I mean, I actually mixed it. | 2:13:09 | |
I mean, two years, over two-and-a-half years | 2:13:11 | |
in American custody, | 2:13:15 | |
the guards, the mentality and stuff, | 2:13:16 | |
a lot of them hated being there. | 2:13:19 | |
They didn't wanna be there. | 2:13:22 | |
They actually spoke against Bush. | 2:13:22 | |
They were scared they were gonna be sent to Iraq. | 2:13:24 | |
So you actually got like negative stuff | 2:13:30 | |
even coming from the guards. | 2:13:33 | |
And even like, they fought. | 2:13:34 | |
There's a guard that actually asked the question, | 2:13:37 | |
he asked me to translate for him, | 2:13:42 | |
to Yemeni guy, I said, | 2:13:44 | |
"Ask him they got nail clippers in Yemen." | 2:13:45 | |
Man | Ask him what? | 2:13:48 |
- | Ask the Yemeni prisoner, | 2:13:49 |
if they've got nail clippers in Yemen. | 2:13:51 | |
Do you know what I mean? | 2:13:55 | |
And it's true, I mean, it's true. | 2:13:56 | |
I mean, I'm not saying all Americans are like that, | 2:13:58 | |
but generally this is how it is. | 2:13:59 | |
It's like, you can fall for it. | 2:14:01 | |
Like, can you imagine, if you sit down | 2:14:03 | |
for I think five minutes about landing on the moon, | 2:14:05 | |
do you know how much petrol | 2:14:08 | |
you're gonna need to get to the moon? | 2:14:10 | |
And what kind of power you need to get back from there? | 2:14:11 | |
(Tarek laughs) | 2:14:14 | |
It's like just thinking of it, | 2:14:16 | |
it is like the moon, the moon (laughs). | 2:14:16 | |
Man | I have tell you, I do believe. | 2:14:19 |
- | No, you can't, you can't. | 2:14:20 |
I mean, 'cause there's even a guy | 2:14:21 | |
that done help do the video | 2:14:23 | |
and they said they've done it in Nevada desert. | 2:14:25 | |
And it's just, this type of interview, | 2:14:27 | |
you're gonna get all these proper documentaries | 2:14:29 | |
refuting in the facts. | 2:14:32 | |
And I just thinking about it's like, you know what? | 2:14:34 | |
I didn't even need to watch the documentary to know this. | 2:14:36 | |
I could have worked it out myself, | 2:14:39 | |
I'm telling you man. | 2:14:40 | |
And like, for example, like the satellites. | 2:14:42 | |
There is satellites in space. | 2:14:46 | |
I mean, we're not trying to deny all of that | 2:14:47 | |
but there is satellite space. | 2:14:49 | |
There is rockets that go up, you know, | 2:14:50 | |
but the thing is, it gets to an extent, | 2:14:53 | |
like for example, one thing that I had | 2:14:54 | |
when I was first in American custody, | 2:15:00 | |
all the movies start flashing through my head. | 2:15:03 | |
And every single, just every single movie I watched, | 2:15:07 | |
started flashing through my head. | 2:15:09 | |
And I actually thought they were gonna cut me open | 2:15:10 | |
and put a bug inside me, | 2:15:13 | |
literally, because of the movies and stuff. | 2:15:15 | |
So this movie stuff, it does have an effect on people | 2:15:17 | |
and they know it, they know what they're doing. | 2:15:20 | |
For example "Enemy of the State" by Will Smith. | 2:15:24 | |
Before I was went away, I saw this film. | 2:15:29 | |
And after watching it, | 2:15:34 | |
I went to the toilet and literally I was looking | 2:15:35 | |
in the corners of my own house | 2:15:37 | |
and I figured there was a camera watching me. | 2:15:39 | |
'Cause it was, do you know what I mean? | 2:15:43 | |
It's like you're being watched and this and that. | 2:15:44 | |
And this is what it is, | 2:15:47 | |
this is what it's like a brainwashing thing. | 2:15:48 | |
And you actually think that they're the power. | 2:15:52 | |
That's why they said they went to the moon | 2:15:54 | |
because they were racing for superpower with Russia. | 2:15:56 | |
And if they've been to the moon and they fake it | 2:15:59 | |
and then basically, psychologically, | 2:16:02 | |
the whole world knows that America is powerful. | 2:16:04 | |
Do you know what I mean? | 2:16:07 | |
It's like this kind of thing. | 2:16:08 | |
So this is what it's about. | 2:16:10 | |
So you've gotta be careful | 2:16:11 | |
and it's sometimes you just, | 2:16:12 | |
if you don't break out of it | 2:16:14 | |
you're just not gonna see the truth. | 2:16:15 | |
And there's a higher being, I mean, | 2:16:17 | |
our eyes, our hands, who created us. | 2:16:18 | |
Isn't that amazing? | 2:16:21 | |
If I was to bring this bottle here | 2:16:22 | |
and in court they asked me, they said to me, you know | 2:16:25 | |
"Where did you get this bottle from?" | 2:16:29 | |
And I said, "It's just from nowhere." | 2:16:30 | |
No court is gonna say to me, is gonna believe me. | 2:16:34 | |
So why in the world in its whole creation | 2:16:37 | |
and people will say, "Just come out of nowhere." | 2:16:41 | |
You can't use that excuse. | 2:16:43 | |
You have to say... | 2:16:44 | |
You have to use, you have to... | 2:16:45 | |
There's not evidence to say, "Come from nowhere." | 2:16:48 | |
Do you know what I mean? | 2:16:49 | |
There's not evidence for me to say that came from nowhere, | 2:16:50 | |
I have to prove it. | 2:16:52 | |
So basically the world, who created the world? | 2:16:54 | |
This is it. | 2:16:57 | |
Who created the (mumbles) in its place? | 2:16:58 | |
No one's gonna say... | 2:17:01 | |
And if you debate this in court, | 2:17:01 | |
impossible that you're gonna win. | 2:17:06 | |
You're gonna say, "There must be a creator." | 2:17:09 | |
Another discovered in a cell. | 2:17:12 | |
I don't know there's a DVD, | 2:17:14 | |
in the actual cells there's a machine | 2:17:16 | |
that works like a motor, that moves like a motor | 2:17:19 | |
and they say it's impossible. | 2:17:23 | |
And they destroy Darwin's theory of evolution. | 2:17:26 | |
They demolish it, like he has no leg to stand on. | 2:17:29 | |
Even Darwin says, "If something happens, | 2:17:32 | |
"or if it's fairly common proven | 2:17:35 | |
"and it's scientifically proven, | 2:17:38 | |
"then all my theories, all my work has gone." | 2:17:39 | |
And that film was disapproved. | 2:17:43 | |
And do you want me to say, | 2:17:46 | |
"Hey, we are looking at American." | 2:17:47 | |
I'm thinking, a mobile phone, | 2:17:49 | |
a text message or email, wow, | 2:17:50 | |
from one side oof the earth to the other. | 2:17:53 | |
But look at the eye | 2:17:56 | |
and the way it focuses and the way, | 2:17:57 | |
do you know what I mean? | 2:17:59 | |
That's more amazing to me. | 2:18:00 | |
Do you know what I mean? | 2:18:01 | |
And whoever done that is more powerful. | 2:18:02 | |
So here I am, you know, being a Muslim | 2:18:03 | |
and that's what the Americans done that to me. | 2:18:07 | |
They actually taught me this. | 2:18:09 | |
Which before I had no faith. | 2:18:11 | |
I didn't use to pray before, | 2:18:12 | |
I wasn't really religious. | 2:18:14 | |
And as soon as I was in American custody | 2:18:16 | |
how I am learning my religion. | 2:18:17 | |
So really, you know, no, thanks to them, but they did really | 2:18:21 | |
teach me. | 2:18:27 | |
- | Well, one of the questions | |
I was gonna ask you is there something positive | 2:18:28 | |
that came out of Guantanamo | 2:18:30 | |
and you kind of just answered that, right? | 2:18:32 | |
When you said that now you're a man of religion, | 2:18:34 | |
before you weren't. | 2:18:39 | |
Is that... | 2:18:40 | |
Would you say that, or is there something else | 2:18:42 | |
that you would say, and then also | 2:18:43 | |
is there something negative that impacted your life | 2:18:44 | |
that changed your life from being in Guantanamo? | 2:18:47 | |
- | Basically it's taught me how life is. | 2:18:53 |
I'm confident, I know basically where I'm going in my life. | 2:18:56 | |
I constructed myself. | 2:19:00 | |
Before I was just like, nobody, or stupid. | 2:19:01 | |
I used to follow, used to just believe what I hear. | 2:19:05 | |
So it's nice to break out that. | 2:19:09 | |
I mean, mentally, you know, | 2:19:11 | |
I think I've balanced that now. | 2:19:15 | |
When I first came out, it affected me a bit. | 2:19:16 | |
I always had nightmares, flashbacks, | 2:19:18 | |
especially when I saw the news, | 2:19:22 | |
I would really like... | 2:19:24 | |
And it would enrage me and especially with the lies. | 2:19:25 | |
Do you know what I mean? | 2:19:28 | |
It's like, you know, I was there, I know what happened | 2:19:29 | |
and here they are just lying. | 2:19:30 | |
It just confirmed my feeling | 2:19:32 | |
like, they're a bunch of liars. | 2:19:34 | |
The media, just liars. | 2:19:38 | |
And if the media lies, therefore it's bad. | 2:19:40 | |
And if it's bad, therefore it's evil. | 2:19:43 | |
And then, you know, I mean, and this is it. | 2:19:46 | |
So basically I'm just more confident, | 2:19:48 | |
and I believe that's why I believe more, | 2:19:54 | |
'cause the more life carries on, | 2:19:55 | |
the more, what's it called? | 2:19:59 | |
The more I believe. | 2:20:00 | |
And that's it, what I mean, | 2:20:03 | |
so in a way it's balanced, you know? | 2:20:08 | |
I went for a bad experience, | 2:20:10 | |
which in a way I wish I didn't go through, | 2:20:12 | |
but in another way, you know, I've learned something | 2:20:14 | |
and I've learned something, which is very, very... | 2:20:18 | |
I mean, you can't get better than mental health. | 2:20:21 | |
I mean, like being like physically fit | 2:20:22 | |
and I feel physically fit. | 2:20:26 | |
I mean, mentally, sorry. | 2:20:28 | |
So you edit that (chuckles). | 2:20:30 | |
I'm mentally fit. | 2:20:33 | |
Yeah and it's buzz, it's a nice.. | 2:20:34 | |
Man | I have one more question about this (mumbles) | 2:20:38 |
is there something I left out, that we left out, | 2:20:42 | |
that you kind of want to address, | 2:20:44 | |
before we end the interview? | 2:20:47 | |
Just generally, if there's some thought | 2:20:51 | |
that maybe there's a question I didn't ask | 2:20:53 | |
that you want to talk about or (mumbles)? | 2:20:54 | |
- | I think so. | 2:20:58 |
I think just probably about, | 2:20:58 | |
I think this this film probably needs to be, like, | 2:21:01 | |
speeded up maybe. | 2:21:04 | |
It's a good contribution | 2:21:06 | |
and I'm grateful to help you take part in it. | 2:21:07 | |
I hope it... | 2:21:12 | |
'Cause I mean, like, it could be easily done | 2:21:13 | |
by Obama just saying, you know, just close it. | 2:21:15 | |
But with all this, beyond the Obama. | 2:21:20 | |
So be nice and this is how we have to work. | 2:21:22 | |
I mean, this is how it has to be done. | 2:21:26 | |
So I appreciate you, I mean, you doing this, | 2:21:28 | |
'cause it is gonna help the guys there. | 2:21:31 | |
Man | Well, we really thank you for that. | 2:21:34 |
Woman | Thank you so much. | 2:21:37 |
- | Cool. | 2:21:37 |
Item Info
The preservation of the Duke University Libraries Digital Collections and the Duke Digital Repository programs are supported in part by the Lowell and Eileen Aptman Digital Preservation Fund