- |
Wait, start over and ask that question again. |
0:00
|
- |
So, what are the ways that Sugarloaf |
0:03
|
|
interfaces with the local community? |
0:06
|
- |
These days, we don't. |
0:09
|
- |
Okay, other days. |
0:12
|
- |
Well, in our past-- |
0:14
|
- |
Up to 1994. |
|
- |
Oh, up to 1994. |
0:17
|
|
Okay well, you know there was a pretty large community |
0:18
|
|
of women who were not lesbians |
0:27
|
|
who were active in different ways, |
0:29
|
|
and they were a part of the Sugarloaf community, |
0:33
|
|
larger community. |
0:37
|
|
Jane Verlaine was very active in founding a women's shelter, |
0:40
|
|
a domestic abuse shelter |
0:47
|
|
and she worked with women who had been abused. |
0:48
|
|
That was something really close to her heart |
0:54
|
|
and she and Barbara sheltered women here |
0:56
|
|
before there was an actual shelter. |
1:00
|
- |
Oh, wow, that's really interesting. |
1:02
|
- |
And, when I moved down here in '83, |
1:05
|
|
there still was not an actual, you know, |
1:10
|
|
maybe there was a shelter on Marathon at that point, |
1:14
|
|
a new shelter on Marathon. |
1:17
|
|
But there was nothing in Key West |
1:18
|
|
and so I sheltered women in Key West, too |
1:20
|
|
at my place, and women, yes, |
1:25
|
|
there was one in Marathon then. |
1:28
|
|
Because women could stay at my house |
1:29
|
|
for three days if they needed it |
1:31
|
|
and then, if they needed shelter longer than that, |
1:34
|
|
they were expected to go to the Marathon shelter. |
1:37
|
|
And when Blue and Sky moved here a couple years before that, |
1:42
|
|
they or I think Sky mainly, objected to Barbara |
1:48
|
|
and Jane sheltering women here. |
1:53
|
|
She was afraid that an angry husband would cause problems. |
1:55
|
|
She was afraid of it, you know, |
2:02
|
|
the situation, the possible situation. |
2:04
|
|
And I think Barbara and Jane stopped doing that then |
2:08
|
|
to please Sky, and, at least, |
2:12
|
|
I never knew of them doing it after that point. |
2:17
|
|
So, that was one thing. |
2:22
|
|
Then there was later on, maybe around 1990, |
2:24
|
|
there was a group of women, which I believe included Midge |
2:29
|
|
and some other women who were midwives |
2:33
|
|
and they were getting the county |
2:35
|
|
to establish a recycling program |
2:41
|
|
and that was important to the larger community. |
2:44
|
|
And then there was another group of women, who were part of, |
2:50
|
|
it's a peace and freedom group. |
3:01
|
|
Women's something for peace and freedom? |
3:04
|
|
Women's Alliance for Peace and Freedom? |
3:07
|
- |
Did they meet here? |
3:11
|
- |
I don't know if they met here, |
3:13
|
|
I just know that they were connected here. |
3:14
|
|
Probably they met here, at least sometimes. |
3:17
|
- |
Was Barbara, oh this would've been |
3:27
|
|
after Barbara Deming. |
3:29
|
|
So this is probably, she was so connected |
3:31
|
|
to Peace and Freedom that you would think. |
3:33
|
- |
Yeah, I imagine that that was happening |
3:36
|
|
and maybe some of those women came to the CR sessions here. |
3:39
|
- |
When did they start, Leanne, do you have any idea? |
3:47
|
- |
Well, no I don't know when it started, |
3:51
|
|
yet I think it had been going on for some time |
3:54
|
|
before I arrived here. |
3:57
|
|
It probably ended before 1990, I would say. |
4:01
|
|
It was Barbara who was so dedicated to doing CR. |
4:10
|
- |
And I wonder how she came to it? |
4:20
|
|
I mean the same way all those women did from that period |
4:22
|
|
through Women's Movement? |
4:24
|
- |
Yeah, we all came to it. |
4:28
|
|
(she laughs) |
4:31
|
|
I was doing CR in the 70s. |
4:32
|
|
Yeah, and I think probably some of the straight women |
4:40
|
|
in this area were part of the CR group. |
4:43
|
- |
And did it meet, |
4:53
|
|
do you know where the CR group met? |
4:56
|
|
Did it always meet at the same place, here? |
4:58
|
- |
I think it met here at least most of the time, um-hm. |
4:59
|
- |
Did that get your-- |
5:07
|
- |
And the Wednesday potlucks continue to this day. |
5:08
|
- |
Yeah, but we don't have local women coming to them. |
5:11
|
|
You know, the local women-- |
5:15
|
- |
Who comes? |
5:17
|
|
Just the four of you? |
5:18
|
- |
Or whoever we have visiting here. |
5:19
|
|
Occasionally, someone else will come like |
5:21
|
|
the are two women who live on Sugarloaf |
5:23
|
|
who have just moved to New York actually. |
5:28
|
|
They still have their house here, |
5:30
|
|
who would come occasionally, not all the time. |
5:33
|
- |
So who comes to the Wednesday potlucks? |
5:37
|
- |
Used to be that a lot of local women came, |
5:40
|
|
but now it is not the case. |
5:43
|
- |
No, Blue and Ruth were both active |
5:46
|
|
in the UU Church. |
5:50
|
- |
They went to the Unitarian Church, |
5:52
|
|
they were really active? |
5:54
|
- |
Yes, they were active and at that time, |
5:56
|
|
the UU church didn't have a minister. |
5:58
|
|
So it was congregation members |
6:01
|
|
who led whatever services they had. |
6:03
|
|
So for Blue it was a platform. |
6:07
|
|
It really was a platform for her |
6:10
|
|
and one that she enjoyed. |
6:12
|
|
And I think she started doing that after Ruth moved here. |
6:14
|
- |
You mean the CR groups were a platform or the UU? |
6:19
|
- |
No, the UU |
6:22
|
- |
UU, Unitarian Universalist |
|
|
congregation. |
6:23
|
- |
I went to the most beautiful event |
6:24
|
|
that she did at the Unitarian Church. |
6:28
|
|
It was incredible and it was about women's spirituality. |
6:30
|
|
And they opened with a little talk about how, |
6:35
|
|
Blue did a testimony about how much it meant to her |
6:39
|
|
to hear the name of a goddess having only heard |
6:47
|
|
male gods and stuff in her background. |
6:51
|
|
And she got fascinated by it and it was empowering |
6:54
|
|
and it was beautiful and it made you think the women... |
6:59
|
|
It valued women in an important way |
7:06
|
|
instead of making them subservient. |
7:11
|
|
You know a danger like the Catholics. |
7:15
|
|
(she laughs) |
7:17
|
|
And so she talked about that and then she passed out |
7:18
|
|
to the congregation little slips of paper |
7:21
|
|
with different goddesses and a description of them |
7:25
|
|
and asked each one of us as we got a slip of paper, |
7:30
|
|
to stand up and say, like, |
7:33
|
|
I am Diana, goddess of the woods. |
7:38
|
|
I treasure wildlife and deer |
7:43
|
|
or whatever it may be, you know. |
7:47
|
|
Or I am and the different, Nona, |
7:50
|
|
each one got up and spoke like that. |
7:54
|
|
And it brought tears to my eyes. |
7:57
|
|
I was just like, I couldn't believe it |
7:59
|
|
'cause it was in a church. |
8:01
|
|
And I had that same background of feeling left out |
8:02
|
|
and feeling that the things I held dear, like nature |
8:07
|
|
and women were left out of the church that I went to. |
8:10
|
|
And it was a whole lot of judgment and not very much joy. |
8:16
|
|
(she laughs) |
8:20
|
|
And so here was this service in a church |
8:21
|
|
where I was hearing such beautiful things. |
8:25
|
|
And then Ruth Dreamdigger got up |
8:28
|
|
and she read from a Ntozake Shange, I have seen god, |
8:30
|
|
I have seen god and I have seen her face |
8:39
|
|
and I loved her fiercely. |
8:44
|
|
And it just like still brings goose pimples to me. |
8:47
|
- |
Yeah, it's beautiful. |
8:51
|
- |
And the whole congregation, |
8:52
|
|
then we ate together afterwards. |
8:54
|
|
And it was just amazing to me to bring that |
8:56
|
|
to a straight congregation and for them to be willing, |
9:00
|
|
some of the people who read slips of paper were men. |
9:05
|
|
That was, I was so happy to be here then for that. |
9:12
|
- |
Yeah, I bet. |
9:16
|
|
I would have loved to have seen that, too. |
9:16
|
|
So Blue and Ruth were both active in that congregation |
9:20
|
|
and they both did presentations of that sort. |
9:23
|
- |
So that would be a way that you interface |
9:32
|
|
with the community then. |
9:34
|
- |
Yes, uh-huh. |
9:35
|
- |
And when did that end? |
9:36
|
- |
Well, I think... |
9:37
|
|
It probably ended with Blue's death. |
9:44
|
|
Oh, I'm sure it ended with Blue's death |
9:46
|
|
and some would have ended with Ruth's death. |
9:48
|
- |
Ruth died first? |
9:53
|
- |
Um-hm, yeah. |
9:54
|
|
Ruth also conducted dream groups. |
10:00
|
|
Her name was Ruth Dreamdigger |
10:05
|
|
and she did a lot of different kinds of dream groups. |
10:06
|
|
She had her own way of viewing dreams |
10:10
|
|
and all the women who lived here at that time |
10:15
|
|
I think participated in the dream groups |
10:20
|
|
and I believe there were some outsiders, too. |
10:22
|
- |
Would they have been lesbian outsiders |
10:32
|
|
or just women outsiders? |
10:33
|
- |
I think women. |
10:35
|
- |
Well, like Midge she had a couple of her straight cohorts. |
10:37
|
|
Cohorts. |
10:44
|
- |
Yeah, Midge and Iva. |
10:45
|
|
You know Iva Stanley? |
10:48
|
- |
I've been in some of those groups. |
10:49
|
|
Yean, I don't remember her particularly. |
10:51
|
- |
And Lizzie Poole. |
10:54
|
- |
Those are women from the community? |
10:59
|
- |
Um-hm. |
11:00
|
|
And there were others. |
11:01
|
- |
Are Midge and Iva Stanley a couple? |
11:09
|
- |
No, no they're both straight. |
11:11
|
- |
These are straight women. |
11:13
|
- |
They're both married to men. |
11:14
|
|
But they were supportive of this community |
11:17
|
|
and participated in things here. |
11:19
|
- |
Midge, Iva and who? |
11:22
|
- |
Midge, Iva Stanley, Lizzie Poole. |
11:24
|
- |
Lizzie? |
11:29
|
- |
Um-hm. |
|
- |
And they shared a lot of things like with women. |
11:33
|
|
They were doing Reiki, eating sprouts. |
11:38
|
|
(she laughs) |
11:44
|
|
You know, various things like that. |
11:45
|
- |
Now of those women, |
12:01
|
|
Midge is the only one who's still around. |
12:02
|
|
She lives on Sugarloaf. |
12:05
|
|
Let's see, she would probably be an interesting person |
12:10
|
|
for you to talk with 'cause she used to be pretty involved. |
12:15
|
|
Actually, I'm not sure that's true. |
12:20
|
|
She was somewhat involved with the community. |
12:22
|
- |
But she doesn't come to the potluck? |
12:25
|
- |
No, uh-uh. |
12:27
|
- |
I wish she would. |
12:29
|
|
She only visits here very occasionally. |
12:31
|
|
I probably visited her place more often then she does here. |
12:33
|
|
She's very busy. |
12:38
|
- |
Oh I wanna go back and get that story |
12:50
|
|
of how you came here, |
12:52
|
|
starting with the accident. |
12:57
|
- |
Oh, starting to live here. |
12:59
|
|
When I came to live here. |
13:01
|
- |
Well, no, actually let's start with |
13:02
|
|
how you first came here and met Barbara. |
13:05
|
|
Well, you did tell that. |
13:07
|
- |
She was sent by the goddess. |
13:08
|
|
(they laugh) |
13:10
|
- |
Yeah, that's already on the tape, okay. |
13:12
|
|
So let's start with how you came back. |
13:13
|
- |
Is that on the tape? |
13:14
|
- |
I don't think it is. |
13:16
|
- |
I don't think it is. |
13:17
|
- |
Actually, no. |
|
- |
So go ahead and start with you were living in Key West |
13:22
|
|
and you had lost your boat. |
13:25
|
- |
Okay, so when I came |
13:28
|
|
to live here. |
13:29
|
- |
Start with Wilma. |
|
|
Yes, start with Wilma. |
13:30
|
- |
Okay. |
13:31
|
- |
In 2009 after-- |
13:32
|
- |
Oh, you mean-- |
13:33
|
- |
what happened to Sugarloaf. |
|
- |
You'd lived here before hadn't you? |
13:35
|
|
No, that was the first time |
13:37
|
|
you ever lived here after Wilma? |
13:39
|
- |
No, well I lived here for brief periods. |
13:41
|
|
Like for three months when Barbara |
13:44
|
|
and Jane were in New York. |
13:45
|
|
And for a month, four months all together. |
13:47
|
- |
So, you were very hooked in with the whole-- |
13:50
|
- |
Yes, from the start. |
13:52
|
- |
So this section should begin by saying from 1983 |
13:53
|
|
you had lived here for different periods of time. |
13:57
|
|
But you only came here to live permanently after Wilma. |
13:59
|
- |
Right. |
14:02
|
- |
So start there. |
14:03
|
- |
Okay, so that's on the tape? |
14:04
|
|
(she laughs) |
14:07
|
|
What you just said. |
14:07
|
|
Okay so Hurricane Wilma changed the face of the Keys |
14:08
|
|
you know in big ways and the flooding was really terrible. |
14:12
|
|
There was, the storm was not that bad. |
14:17
|
|
It was not a big hurricane, |
14:22
|
|
but the storm surge was terrific |
14:23
|
|
and it was, there were two of them actually. |
14:26
|
|
The first one came from the Atlantic side |
14:28
|
|
and then two hours later |
14:32
|
|
the second one came from the Gulf side. |
14:34
|
|
Here at Sugarloaf, about five feet of water |
14:39
|
|
washed across the land. |
14:42
|
|
This house had five feet of water in it. |
14:44
|
|
You could see how high it got. |
14:47
|
|
The other houses were not harmed as much |
14:52
|
|
because they're higher. |
14:56
|
|
They're off the ground, |
14:57
|
|
but this one's right on the ground. |
14:58
|
|
And my boat was swept into the big trees |
15:01
|
|
alongside the highway. |
15:06
|
|
I ended up not being able to save the boat. |
15:09
|
|
So at that point I moved into Key West |
15:13
|
|
and lived in Key West for a year in a apartment. |
15:16
|
|
And things were being rebuilt here. |
15:20
|
|
Women were helping. |
15:23
|
|
You know some women were coming here |
15:24
|
|
and helping, hands-on, |
15:26
|
|
in a hands-on sort of way. |
15:28
|
|
Others were sending supplies and money |
15:30
|
|
and tools and whatever they could. |
15:33
|
|
Habitat for Humanity got involved |
15:41
|
|
and they sent a crew of women carpenters, |
15:46
|
|
no, yes women carpenters |
15:49
|
|
and a male electrician and they did a lot of work here. |
15:52
|
|
Selena did a lot of work here. |
15:56
|
|
She's very good at building |
15:58
|
|
and she knows electricity so she re-wired this house |
16:00
|
|
along with Joanne who's another electrician. |
16:03
|
|
But still at the end of a year, |
16:11
|
|
there was still so much to be done here. |
16:14
|
|
And the land itself had not recovered at all. |
16:16
|
|
There was nothing green. |
16:20
|
|
Very little green growing here. |
16:23
|
|
No grass or no leaves on a lot of the trees. |
16:25
|
|
So, it was pretty-- |
16:35
|
- |
It was gray. |
16:36
|
- |
Yes, it was gray and brown. |
16:37
|
|
There was a FEMA trailer in the front yard of my house, |
16:41
|
|
because Sandy, they gave Sandy the FEMA trailer to live in |
16:45
|
|
while her house was being redone. |
16:52
|
|
And Sandy had breast cancer at the time |
16:54
|
|
and she couldn't come home to her house the way it was. |
16:58
|
|
You know all the walls had to be torn out |
17:04
|
|
and mold removed and that sort of thing. |
17:06
|
|
So FEMA gave her a trailer, |
17:09
|
|
which you can still see on the Google Maps. |
17:12
|
|
(she chuckles) |
17:14
|
|
I think you can still see it. |
17:17
|
|
Anyway, so a lot of work had been done, |
17:19
|
|
but there was still a lot to do. |
17:22
|
|
And I had an accident on my scooter in which my foot |
17:24
|
|
was seriously injured and so I was laid up for a few months. |
17:30
|
|
And when I could get around again, |
17:36
|
|
I couldn't walk on hard surfaces very much. |
17:39
|
|
So, I started coming up here |
17:43
|
|
because I was really anxious to be active again. |
17:45
|
|
It was hard being you know laying down for months. |
17:48
|
|
And so I started coming here and working on the land. |
17:53
|
|
And I planted things and I spread, |
17:57
|
|
there were five big piles of mulch |
18:03
|
|
in different places on the land. |
18:05
|
|
I rented a backhoe, a big backhoe |
18:08
|
|
and myself and Tessa and Sylvie |
18:11
|
|
spread all of that mulch all over the entire property. |
18:18
|
|
And, what else? |
18:24
|
|
There was a trailer park being torn down in Key West |
18:25
|
|
and I went there. |
18:28
|
|
All the people had moved away |
18:29
|
|
and it was gonna be bulldozed pretty soon. |
18:31
|
|
So I went there and I dug up banana trees |
18:34
|
|
and other shrubs that I could move |
18:36
|
|
and brought them up here and planted them. |
18:39
|
- |
Where did you dig them up from? |
18:41
|
- |
A trailer park that had been, that was gonna be developed. |
18:43
|
- |
I wondered where all these banana trees came from. |
18:49
|
|
(they laugh) |
18:51
|
- |
That's where most of them came from. |
18:53
|
- |
Well great. |
18:55
|
- |
Yeah, so it was very satisfying. |
18:59
|
|
You know I would spend two or three days a week |
19:03
|
|
here working like that. |
19:05
|
|
And watching the place get a little better |
19:08
|
|
and a little better and a little better. |
19:14
|
|
Then, before I moved here I decided I could tackle |
19:18
|
|
redoing a lot of the community house |
19:25
|
|
and I wanted to because our Board, |
19:27
|
|
we wanted to have our board meeting here. |
19:29
|
|
So along with another woman, we put in the wall. |
19:31
|
|
These walls had already been done on this side, |
19:35
|
|
but the interior walls were just the studs were there. |
19:38
|
|
There were no walls. |
19:41
|
|
So we put up these walls in the bedroom |
19:43
|
|
and in the living room and kitchen. |
19:46
|
|
And everything that we did after Wilma |
19:50
|
|
was built so that if it ever flooded again like that, |
19:53
|
|
it would not have to be all torn out. |
19:56
|
|
So these walls are, they're Hardie Board. |
19:59
|
|
They're actually a concrete sort of thing. |
20:02
|
|
And these walls, these walls are plywood on this side. |
20:08
|
|
All the electrical outlets were moved up |
20:18
|
|
so that they're not five feet off the ground |
20:23
|
|
but hopefully, that will never happen again. |
20:27
|
|
(she laughs) |
20:29
|
- |
They're about four feet, though. |
20:31
|
- |
Yeah, they are. |
20:32
|
|
Then the plumbing had to be all redone. |
20:40
|
|
The kitchen had been pretty much torn out. |
20:46
|
|
The cabinets on top there were the only thing |
20:50
|
|
that could be saved. |
20:52
|
|
The lower cabinets were ruined. |
20:53
|
|
And let's see, the way the kitchen is set up |
20:56
|
|
is different than it was then, too. |
21:02
|
|
But I think this is how the original kitchen was actually. |
21:03
|
|
Once you can see behind the walls, |
21:06
|
|
this seems to be the way it was. |
21:09
|
|
I found those, the lower cabinets on the street in Key West. |
21:16
|
|
Someone had put them out and it was actually, a hutch. |
21:21
|
|
The top piece separated from the bottom |
21:26
|
|
and they were the same height. |
21:29
|
|
So, I brought them up here. |
21:31
|
- |
So somebody had put them out as ruined or? |
21:35
|
- |
No, they weren't ruined. |
21:37
|
|
It's probably |
21:39
|
|
a remodeling job. |
21:40
|
- |
They just replaced them. |
|
- |
Yes, people do that in Key West a lot. |
21:43
|
|
First I took them to the place where I was living. |
21:45
|
|
I had a little backyard there and I refinished them there |
21:47
|
|
and then I brought them up here. |
21:52
|
|
And some other women added on to them. |
21:56
|
|
The open shelves have been added on, |
21:58
|
|
on the top and the bottom. |
22:03
|
|
(she chuckles) |
22:06
|
|
Anyway, it all came together. |
22:09
|
- |
And then what made you decide to-- |
22:12
|
- |
To live here? |
22:14
|
|
Well, working on the land and on the community house |
22:16
|
|
it just helped me to fall in love with it again. |
22:19
|
|
And to want to give more. |
22:25
|
|
There really wasn't a resident space available |
22:30
|
|
for me to move in to, so I lived in the cottage |
22:32
|
|
for about three months. |
22:35
|
|
But we all knew Sandy was dying |
22:36
|
|
and so after she died, I moved into her house. |
22:39
|
- |
And that's when you moved in the house? |
22:47
|
- |
Um-hm, yeah. |
22:48
|
|
Now, so I moved here in October of 2006, |
22:53
|
|
a year after Wilma and I lived in the cottage until January. |
22:59
|
|
Sandy died in the end of November or the first of December, |
23:04
|
|
but I didn't move into her house right away |
23:11
|
|
out of respect for women who might want |
23:13
|
|
to spend a little quiet time there and think about Sandy. |
23:16
|
|
And that house wasn't totally finished then either. |
23:27
|
|
There was no wall between the bedroom and the living room. |
23:31
|
|
I think the cabinet doors had not been |
23:38
|
|
put back on to the cabinets. |
23:40
|
|
But Sandy had done a lot of work on that house |
23:46
|
|
during that year before she died. |
23:49
|
|
And other people had too, but Sandy organized it all |
23:51
|
|
and she was very good at carpentry and that sort of thing. |
23:56
|
|
So she did quite a bit. |
24:00
|
|
And she did things that she'd always wanted to have done |
24:02
|
|
in that house, pleased herself. |
24:04
|
|
I was treasurer of Sugarloaf at that time |
24:09
|
|
and I kind of raised my eyebrows at some of the things |
24:12
|
|
that she was doing, but I ended up benefiting from it all. |
24:15
|
|
(she laughs) |
24:23
|
- |
How long did she live there? |
24:25
|
- |
Oh, about 12 years I think. |
24:26
|
|
And she had even before Wilma, |
24:31
|
|
done a lot of work on that house |
24:34
|
|
and made it much nicer than it was |
24:36
|
|
when Barbara and Jane lived here. |
24:38
|
|
Particularly, the kitchen. |
24:40
|
|
Now, Barbara and Jane cooked and entertained |
24:47
|
|
and, but they did in the most horrendous little kitchen. |
24:51
|
|
I did not know how they brought the beautiful things |
24:55
|
|
out of that kitchen that they did. |
24:57
|
|
(she laughs) |
24:59
|
- |
Well, I remember having dinner there |
25:00
|
|
and Barbara took the napkins |
25:03
|
|
and she did a watercolor of woman symbol on each napkin |
25:09
|
|
and she put a hibiscus on each plate. |
25:15
|
|
It was just beautiful. |
25:19
|
|
And then when we left she blessed each, the four tires |
25:22
|
|
giving us safety and sang that Acorn written song, |
25:27
|
|
♪ Gently, gently, gently go ♪ |
25:33
|
|
♪ Yo-ho-ho, yo-ho-ho ♪ |
25:36
|
|
and it was great. |
25:39
|
- |
That was after Blue was here, right? |
25:41
|
- |
Yeah. |
25:44
|
- |
Yeah. |
25:45
|
- |
When would that have been? |
25:48
|
|
Blue came in 1980. |
25:49
|
- |
'81 or '82, I'm not sure which. |
25:52
|
- |
This would have been in the 80s you're remembering? |
25:56
|
|
Well she died in '80. |
25:58
|
- |
Yes, she died in '84. |
26:00
|
- |
When I had dinner here with them early in '84, |
26:02
|
|
like January. |
26:07
|
|
Or February, February maybe. |
26:10
|
- |
Oh, this is the year of LeAP then, the first LeAP? |
26:13
|
- |
Um-hm. |
26:15
|
- |
That's a good story. |
26:21
|
- |
Barbara invited me for dinner during that time, too. |
26:22
|
|
And she had asked me, maybe when she invited, |
26:26
|
|
maybe just before she invited me for dinner, |
26:30
|
|
she asked me who is my favorite feminist author |
26:33
|
|
and I said Adrienne Rich, Adrienne, |
26:36
|
|
I didn't know how to say her name then. |
26:39
|
|
I said Adrian Rich and she had really, |
26:41
|
|
her writings had really touched me. |
26:44
|
|
And when I went there to have dinner, she was there. |
26:46
|
- |
Oh! |
26:50
|
|
(she laughs) |
26:51
|
- |
I was so thrilled to be seated |
26:52
|
- |
Oh, my God. |
26:55
|
- |
at the dinner table |
|
|
with her. |
26:56
|
|
(she laughs) |
26:57
|
|
And then, too, Barbara had a hibiscus on each plate. |
26:59
|
|
And she served a beautiful whole fish, |
27:04
|
|
I don't remember what kind of fish, |
27:08
|
|
but it was a large, beautiful fish that was whole. |
27:10
|
|
And we had wine and after dinner |
27:14
|
|
Barbara went into the kitchen and, she told me this later, |
27:20
|
|
she went into the kitchen where no one could see her |
27:23
|
|
and she ate the eyes of the fish. |
27:26
|
|
(she laughs) |
27:28
|
- |
Oh, wow. |
27:29
|
- |
I think she had learned to do that |
27:31
|
|
when she had visited in Japan. |
27:33
|
|
She believed it would help her to see underwater |
27:38
|
|
in a magical sort of way. |
27:43
|
|
But she didn't wanna offend other people |
27:48
|
|
by doing in front of them. |
27:49
|
|
(she chuckles) |
27:50
|
- |
Wow. |
27:56
|
- |
Wow, really. |
28:01
|
- |
Something I read, I think, oh, Grace Paley's introduction |
28:04
|
|
to the Prisons notes the book you shown-- |
28:07
|
- |
"Prisons That Would Not Hold"? |
28:11
|
- |
Um-hm. |
28:13
|
|
Her introduction talked about, well her experience |
28:14
|
|
on the two Peace walks that Barbara writes about |
28:18
|
|
in that book. |
28:21
|
|
The first one in 1963, maybe and then so I think 1984. |
28:24
|
|
Or was it '83? |
28:30
|
- |
'83. |
28:31
|
- |
'83. |
|
- |
She talks about how at the end Barbara was so careful. |
28:33
|
|
Somebody delivered to her, Grace Paley, |
28:37
|
|
something that Barbara had specifically planned to leave her |
28:40
|
|
and it was pieces of, let me go read that again. |
28:44
|
|
We don't need that on here. |
28:52
|
- |
Oh, that's the beginning of that. |
28:55
|
- |
Barbara gave... |
28:57
|
- |
I'll say it again, Barbara gave away a lot |
28:58
|
|
of her personal belongings during the last days |
29:00
|
|
to many women who came here to say goodbye to Barbara. |
29:03
|
|
She gave me a beautiful Seminole skirt that was a, |
29:10
|
|
oh, just a different color. |
29:16
|
|
I just never would have thought this was |
29:18
|
|
a Seminole Indian skirt from the color, the design yes. |
29:19
|
|
You know it had all the rick-rack |
29:23
|
|
and the little squares of, what do you call that? |
29:25
|
|
It's not, it's not embroidery, but it's-- |
29:30
|
- |
Quilted? |
29:36
|
- |
It's not exactly quilted, it's like little squares |
29:37
|
|
that are sewn top of the main fabric. |
29:40
|
- |
Applique? |
29:42
|
- |
Applique, that's what it is, yes. |
29:43
|
|
And she gave me some other things too of her clothing. |
29:46
|
|
A corduroy vest that she wore all the time. |
29:50
|
|
I don't know why she gave me clothing, but she did. |
29:57
|
|
Her red Converse high-tops. |
29:59
|
|
(she chuckles) |
30:02
|
|
Um-hm, yes and after Blue died, |
30:04
|
|
no when Blue was dying, she was concerned about things |
30:11
|
|
that she had that had belonged to Barbara. |
30:16
|
|
And she said, you know none of these women who are here now |
30:19
|
|
would know that this was Barbara's thing |
30:23
|
|
or that was Barbara's thing. |
30:25
|
|
And I said well, I know some of them anyway |
30:27
|
|
and I'll make note of it. |
30:30
|
|
And she picked up a mirror, a round mirror in a wood frame |
30:32
|
|
and she said, now no one would know |
30:39
|
|
that this was Barbara's mirror. |
30:41
|
|
And I said, oh, that's wonderful, I don't remember that |
30:42
|
|
that was Barbara's mirror. |
30:46
|
|
And after Blue, and I think I asked her |
30:48
|
|
if she would give it to me, but she didn't. |
30:51
|
|
But after she died, her daughter gave it to me. |
30:53
|
|
And I felt like it was so special to have this mirror |
30:56
|
|
that both Barbara and Blue had looked at themselves in, |
31:01
|
|
for years, you know each of them for years. |
31:05
|
- |
You have to take a picture of that mirror. |
31:08
|
|
(she laughs) |
31:10
|
- |
Okay, yeah. |
31:11
|
- |
Did she call Barbara, Bobbie? |
31:13
|
- |
Yes. |
31:16
|
|
You know a lot of people called her Bobbie |
31:18
|
|
and I think she liked that, |
31:20
|
|
but I could never do it. |
31:22
|
|
I don't know, it was, it just seemed too much of a, too... |
31:23
|
|
It was out of respect and awe of her |
31:32
|
|
that I couldn't call her by a nickname, |
31:35
|
|
I always called her Barbara. |
31:36
|
- |
Do you know anything about how Blue, |
31:41
|
|
well Blue writes about, talks about it on the film, right? |
31:43
|
- |
About? |
31:46
|
- |
How they met. |
|
|
How they came to be so important to each other. |
31:48
|
- |
Hm, you haven't looked at the film? |
31:52
|
- |
I can't remember if she says that specifically |
31:55
|
|
or not. |
31:57
|
- |
Let me, okay. |
31:58
|
|
'Cause I do remember... |
32:00
|
|
The Blue on the film says that she visited Sugarloaf |
32:02
|
|
in 1981 with her partner and arranged to move here |
32:05
|
|
and quote, because Barbara and Jane loved these properties |
32:10
|
|
we have some ground to stand on. |
32:13
|
- |
Um-hm. |
32:15
|
|
And she told me that she and Sky came down, |
32:16
|
|
they were invited to dinner and they stayed for three weeks. |
32:22
|
|
(she chuckles) |
32:25
|
|
And then I don't know how quickly they moved down here |
32:27
|
|
after that, but certainly by '82 they were living here. |
32:30
|
- |
Okay, say that again then. |
32:41
|
- |
Okay, Barbara and Jane were staying |
32:42
|
|
at Barbara's brother's house. |
32:45
|
- |
In New York? |
32:47
|
- |
In New York, yes, while Barbara |
32:48
|
|
was being treated for cancer and Vida, his wife, |
32:49
|
|
Vida was Barbara's lover at one time. |
32:53
|
|
And I think that there was a real deep split between Barbara |
32:56
|
|
and her brother because of that. |
33:02
|
|
She was still in love with Vida, |
33:06
|
|
I believe, when her brother got together with Vida. |
33:08
|
- |
Is that V-I-T-A? |
33:15
|
- |
V-I-D-A. |
33:17
|
- |
V-I-D. |
|
- |
And the brother's name was Chip. |
33:20
|
|
Anyway, my feeling at the time was |
33:24
|
|
that Barbara was healing something in herself |
33:31
|
|
by putting herself in her brother's hands |
33:34
|
|
and healing something between the two of them. |
33:38
|
|
Barbara's cancer was ovarian cancer. |
33:48
|
|
Now, I have a lot of theories about cancer |
33:51
|
|
and I'm a cancer survivor myself. |
33:55
|
|
So, I thought that Barbara's cancer |
33:57
|
|
was rooted in her sexual dilemma |
34:00
|
|
and that the sexual dilemma if it didn't begin |
34:04
|
|
with this business with Chip and Vida, |
34:08
|
|
certainly, that was a part of it. |
34:13
|
- |
And her and Jane not being sexual? |
34:17
|
- |
Yeah, well that was much later of course. |
34:21
|
|
But Barbara, how much should I say about this? |
34:23
|
|
Barbara had a sexual dilemma other times in her life. |
34:27
|
|
You know when she was with Mary Meigs |
34:32
|
|
I don't know how sexual their relationship was. |
34:37
|
|
Certainly it was sexual, |
34:40
|
|
but then Mary Meigs fell in love with Marie-Claire. |
34:41
|
|
And the three of them tried to be a threesome, |
34:44
|
|
but you know Marie-Claire joined their lives |
34:49
|
|
and that didn't work out after I don't know how long. |
34:51
|
|
Some period of time, pretty good trial period, |
34:56
|
|
I'd say it was maybe a year. |
34:59
|
|
So that was another part of it. |
35:05
|
|
And with Jane they didn't have |
35:06
|
|
the kind of sexual relationship that Barbara wished for |
35:09
|
|
or that Jane wished for. |
35:13
|
|
Jane was kind of tortured in her mind about sex |
35:15
|
|
and she said that in order to orgasm |
35:19
|
|
she would fanaticize about child abuse |
35:25
|
|
and so she stopped wanted to be sexual. |
35:29
|
|
That was, that just felt too horrible to her on one level. |
35:34
|
|
Yeah, that's really, really a hard thing isn't it? |
35:40
|
|
I don't know if you should include that. |
35:43
|
|
Maybe, it's hard to tell sometimes |
35:45
|
|
if people's very personal details are appropriate |
35:47
|
|
to publish when they can't speak for themselves about it. |
35:52
|
- |
Well, I think we should do as much damage |
35:59
|
|
as you feel comfortable having on the tape |
36:01
|
|
and then we'll just edit what we want for the notes. |
36:03
|
|
For the interview notes. |
36:07
|
- |
I mean Barbara and Jane both talked with me about this. |
36:08
|
|
Sometimes really, really about their sexual relationship |
36:17
|
|
with each of them individually. |
36:22
|
|
Their individual sexual lives. |
36:26
|
|
We did re-evaluation, re-evaluation training |
36:30
|
|
and they taught me how to do it and they, each of them, |
36:38
|
|
wanted me to do it with them individually. |
36:44
|
|
But after a few times, I found it too hard |
36:47
|
|
to do it with both of them |
36:50
|
|
and so I started hearing it only with Barbara. |
36:53
|
- |
I never heard of re-evaluation training. |
37:00
|
- |
That's not quite the right name. |
37:02
|
- |
Re-evaluation counseling. |
37:04
|
- |
Re-evaluation counseling, yeah. |
37:06
|
|
And there's another name for it. |
37:08
|
- |
Co-counseling? |
37:11
|
- |
Co-counseling. |
37:12
|
- |
And it's supposed to be like couples therapy or? |
37:18
|
- |
No. |
37:20
|
- |
No, what it is |
|
|
it's a way of doing it without having |
37:22
|
|
a professional be in charge. |
37:24
|
|
You're just learn the training |
37:27
|
|
and first one person talks for a half hour |
37:30
|
|
and the other person can hug them |
37:32
|
|
but they don't respond verbally. |
37:34
|
|
As somebody unburdens everything |
37:40
|
|
with that loving presence there, |
37:42
|
|
a lot of times when it's most effective they're shaking |
37:44
|
|
and quivering and sneezing, coughing, crying. |
37:49
|
|
There's a lot of-- |
37:53
|
- |
Discharging. |
37:54
|
- |
Discharging, |
|
|
and then they take turns and the other person, |
37:56
|
|
and that way you get- |
38:03
|
- |
The counselor unburdens to them |
38:04
|
|
or the person who's in place of a counselor? |
38:06
|
- |
Yeah, so it's a way. |
38:08
|
|
It's co-counseling and it's a way of, you know, |
38:10
|
|
avoiding that whole shrink thing. |
38:16
|
|
The professional thing. |
38:19
|
|
And people have gotten a lot of relief and good out of it. |
38:20
|
|
Out of those co-counseling. |
38:26
|
|
And they do it sometimes regularly, like some, |
38:27
|
|
I have a friend who did it like once a week |
38:32
|
|
with another woman. |
38:36
|
|
I did it with that woman and it was quite amazing |
38:39
|
|
the shaking and the crying and the intensity of it all. |
38:43
|
|
And it's around someplaces. |
38:52
|
|
I mean I don't know if they have any in Gainesville |
38:54
|
|
at the moment, but you can sometimes find people to do it. |
38:57
|
- |
It makes me think of lesbian bed death, you know, the-- |
39:02
|
- |
Lesbian what? |
39:06
|
- |
Lesbian bed death. |
39:07
|
|
They used to write about this in LC. |
39:08
|
|
About how women would come together |
39:11
|
|
but when they were in longterm relationships |
39:13
|
|
the sex got less and less and less |
39:15
|
|
until there wasn't any more sex. |
39:17
|
|
I don't know if it was-- |
39:20
|
- |
It's kind of true. |
39:21
|
|
I mean I don't know how this |
39:22
|
|
is connected with co-counseling at all but-- |
39:24
|
- |
Except that you would want to. |
39:27
|
- |
Except that that was a subject |
39:30
|
|
both of them co-counseled with me. |
39:32
|
- |
That's how they did. |
39:35
|
|
What they talked about in co-counseling. |
39:36
|
|
But it's not really, they're two different-- |
39:38
|
- |
Co-counseling wasn't necessarily |
39:40
|
|
about sexual relationships? |
39:41
|
- |
Not at all. |
39:42
|
- |
Oh, no. |
|
- |
Okay, so it just happened to be their subject. |
39:44
|
- |
So it's a totally other thing. |
39:45
|
- |
And there was, there were other women living here |
39:48
|
|
who were doing co-counseling. |
39:50
|
|
I did it once with Vogel and it was a group. |
39:53
|
|
There were other, Vogel and I were doing co-counseling |
39:59
|
|
with each other. |
40:04
|
|
But there were other women in the same house |
40:05
|
|
or apartment who are at the same time |
40:08
|
|
having their own co-counseling session. |
40:10
|
- |
Yeah, so some time a whole group would come, |
40:11
|
|
like six or eight people would come |
40:14
|
|
and they'd all be co-counseling away. |
40:16
|
|
Snorting and sneezing and crying and getting better. |
40:19
|
|
(they laugh) |
40:22
|
|
Kate did it. |
40:25
|
|
She did it for quite awhile I think. |
40:27
|
|
Kate Ellison. |
40:28
|
- |
Sally, too, she-- |
40:30
|
- |
Who? |
40:32
|
- |
Sally Willowbee. |
40:33
|
- |
That is an interesting. |
40:36
|
|
That's an interesting part of lesbian nation |
40:40
|
|
that I had forgotten about. |
40:43
|
|
But a lot of lesbians that I knew who were in land |
40:45
|
|
and activists, all life activists, did that. |
40:51
|
|
And it wasn't just lesbians, though, at all. |
40:55
|
|
I mean it could be straight women and everything. |
40:58
|
|
I don't know how much of it is still around, but some. |
41:02
|
- |
But this would have been in the 90s. |
41:07
|
|
Or when was the, when did the co-counseling start? |
41:09
|
- |
80s. |
41:12
|
- |
Before I came here. |
|
|
I did it in '83 and '84 with Barbara and Jane. |
41:14
|
- |
Oh my, of course, 'cause you did it with Barbara and Jane. |
41:18
|
- |
Yeah um-hm. |
41:20
|
- |
80s was when I first heard of it, |
41:27
|
|
but it started in the 70s. |
41:29
|
|
'Cause people I knew in the 80s, |
41:32
|
|
you know, they were doing it. |
41:34
|
- |
In that respect, |
41:36
|
|
it sounds like an outgrowth of CR, you know, |
41:37
|
|
just a more private kind of-- |
41:39
|
- |
But it wasn't because it was not |
41:41
|
|
a lesbian-feminist thing to begin with |
41:43
|
|
and there's, it was a broader spectrum of community. |
41:45
|
- |
Probably hippies. |
41:51
|
|
You know, it was probably a hippy thing. |
41:52
|
- |
It was the anti-psychiatric establishment. |
41:54
|
|
Like I gotta paper once called Radical Therapist |
41:58
|
|
and it was all that fits that's news to print. |
42:04
|
|
And there still a huge bunch of those people around |
42:08
|
|
who stay away from those psychiatric drugs |
42:10
|
|
and so on. |
42:18
|
|
Anybody want V8 juice? |
42:19
|
- |
No, thank you. |
42:21
|
|
We have I think on that, |
42:23
|
|
I'll bet on that bookshelf there |
42:25
|
|
is a co-counseling manual. |
42:27
|
|
I know I have seen it. |
42:29
|
- |
Oh, really? |
42:31
|
- |
Sometime, yeah. |
42:32
|
|
And then it's possible that it was a Quaker thing. |
42:39
|
|
That's possible. |
42:43
|
- |
Is it a big book or a little book? |
42:47
|
- |
No it's a, it's a thin. |
42:48
|
- |
Thin, pamphlet like? |
42:52
|
- |
And I think it's navy blue or maybe it's black. |
42:54
|
- |
I wanna try to get a feel for who lived here when. |
43:07
|
|
I know some of it's on the tape from when we walked around, |
43:11
|
|
who lived in what house, when. |
43:16
|
|
Some sense of who has lived here mainly for context |
43:19
|
|
so that if I need to fill in background |
43:24
|
|
I'll come to a place where somebody is mentioned. |
43:28
|
|
So if you could just-- |
43:31
|
- |
Okay, so when I first came here in '83, |
43:33
|
|
Barbara and Jane were living in the house that I'm in now. |
43:36
|
|
Vic, Victoria and Newt were living in the two-story house. |
43:40
|
|
The cottage was only for visitors. |
43:48
|
|
And Blue and Sky were living |
43:51
|
|
in the house across from this one. |
43:53
|
|
And this house was being... |
43:56
|
|
There was, you know that Barbara wanted to rent this house, |
44:02
|
|
but someone had not been found to rent it yet, so. |
44:05
|
|
Is that it? |
44:09
|
- |
Yeah, this is it. |
|
- |
That's it. |
44:10
|
|
Then, let's see. |
44:13
|
- |
Go back and say Barbara and Jane |
44:15
|
|
lived in the house you live in now. |
44:18
|
|
Victoria and Newt lived in the two-story house |
44:20
|
|
and who lived in the other? |
44:22
|
- |
Blue and Sky. |
44:24
|
- |
I think there's another one back there. |
44:26
|
- |
That's just the guest cottage. |
44:27
|
- |
The guest cottage was not. |
44:30
|
- |
Not permanently lived in. |
44:31
|
|
And then, Blue and Sky lived in the house here |
44:34
|
|
and Jane had taken over the little apartment on the back |
44:38
|
|
as her art studio. |
44:43
|
|
And she taught lots of women to different things, |
44:45
|
|
artsy things. |
44:49
|
|
And nobody was living in this house. |
44:52
|
|
And I'm not sure what year Ruth Dreamdigger |
44:56
|
|
moved into this house, |
44:59
|
|
but I think it was probably in the late 80s |
45:00
|
|
and maybe even in the middle 80s. |
45:08
|
|
I believe this house before Ruth moved into it |
45:15
|
|
was being used as a guest, you know, a visitor's space. |
45:18
|
|
Blue always had visitors in her house, too. |
45:24
|
|
She had three bedrooms and so there was always somebody |
45:26
|
|
in her house and she opened her kitchen |
45:31
|
|
to whoever wanted to use it. |
45:33
|
|
That was Blue. |
45:36
|
|
I think when I first visited here, |
45:43
|
|
I stayed in Blue's extra bedroom, one of her extra bedrooms |
45:45
|
|
and then in this house. |
45:49
|
|
Okay, so then, let's see. |
45:54
|
|
Next, Victoria and Newt moved away. |
45:56
|
|
Victoria went to Ohio, I think and Newt went to Alaska. |
46:04
|
|
I don't know who moved into that house, |
46:11
|
|
the two-story house at that point. |
46:12
|
|
I was not here, that was when I was traveling in Mexico |
46:16
|
|
and went sailing in the Caribbean and I was not around. |
46:19
|
|
Oh, I know, Sky and Blue broke up |
46:27
|
|
and Sky moved into the two-story house. |
46:30
|
|
Maybe for a year before she moved up to New Hampshire. |
46:33
|
|
Then, let's see. |
46:42
|
|
Ruth was living here. |
46:46
|
|
There were other women who were living here pretty, |
46:47
|
|
not year-round, but maybe winters who, |
46:50
|
|
a couple of women from Germany and they were camping. |
46:55
|
|
Selena, Claudia. |
47:01
|
|
But they were, you know they weren't like |
47:04
|
|
short-term visitors, they were here for months at time. |
47:08
|
|
And Sally, Sally Willowbee started living here |
47:11
|
|
in the winters only but she had a room in Blue's house. |
47:14
|
- |
How do you spell Sally Willowbee? |
47:20
|
- |
W-I-L-L-O-W-B-E-E but that's not the way |
47:22
|
|
the family spells the name. |
47:27
|
- |
Okay. |
47:29
|
- |
O-U-H, O-U-G-H-B-Y. |
47:30
|
- |
Right. |
|
|
It's sort of reclaiming that for herself, again. |
47:43
|
- |
The family spelling? |
47:48
|
- |
Um-hm, I don't know what's on her book over there. |
47:49
|
|
Let me go look. |
47:52
|
|
Uh, yes, Sally lived with her parents |
47:54
|
|
and they were, they were very active in the Quaker community |
47:59
|
|
and in the Peace and Freedom movement. |
48:07
|
|
No, she spells it the new way here. |
48:11
|
|
Sally Lilychild Willowbee. |
48:13
|
|
She put her mother's name, middle name. |
48:15
|
- |
Is it Sally with a Y? |
48:17
|
- |
Hm? |
48:20
|
- |
Sally with a Y? |
|
- |
Yeah, um-hm. |
48:21
|
|
Anyway, Sally lived with her parents |
48:26
|
|
and towards the end of their lives she was their caretaker. |
48:32
|
|
They were very, very active. |
48:37
|
|
They were always going to marches |
48:39
|
|
and being arrested and that kind of thing. |
48:42
|
|
I think her mother was arrested at the age of 96. |
48:43
|
|
(she chuckles) |
48:46
|
|
They were Quakers and had a very open house, |
48:51
|
|
also in New Jersey. |
48:57
|
|
Sally, I think until her parents got quite old, |
49:02
|
|
but she needed to kind of put some distance between herself |
49:08
|
|
and them just for her own identity, you know. |
49:11
|
|
But now, that she's closed that gap since they've died. |
49:19
|
|
And she now participates in the Quaker circles |
49:24
|
|
which she didn't before and she goes to Quaker meeting. |
49:28
|
|
Anyway, yeah, it's not about Sally really but-- |
49:33
|
- |
It doesn't hurt-- |
49:41
|
- |
She was a really important person here. |
49:42
|
|
You know one thing Sally contributed |
49:44
|
|
that made a huge difference to Sugarloaf to this day, |
49:46
|
|
is that she was the one who put the bug in Blue's ear |
49:50
|
|
about forming a land trust. |
49:53
|
|
And Sally is a good fundraiser, |
49:56
|
|
she's a really good fundraiser. |
49:58
|
|
And she raised the money to buy the lot across the street. |
50:00
|
|
But, she would not put it in Blue's name. |
50:05
|
|
She refused to add to Blue's private property. |
50:09
|
|
She wanted it to be a land trust and so that piece |
50:12
|
|
was the very first thing that was the land trust. |
50:15
|
|
Just that one lot. |
50:18
|
|
Then it, you know before Blue died, |
50:21
|
|
she put all the rest of the property into the land trust. |
50:23
|
- |
So Sally is the one who formed |
50:26
|
|
the land trust with that land? |
50:28
|
- |
Um-hm, yeah and she, you know |
50:29
|
|
I said Blue didn't want to create a land trust. |
50:33
|
|
I said that the other day, but in her heart she did. |
50:37
|
|
It was, she was afraid to do it. |
50:42
|
|
She was afraid that the place |
50:44
|
|
wouldn't be taken care of that way. |
50:45
|
|
That there wouldn't be somebody responsible for it |
50:47
|
|
the way she had been. |
50:49
|
|
But in her heart she knew that it was the right thing to do. |
50:52
|
|
So she was conflicted about it. |
50:57
|
|
And other women agreed with Sally. |
51:05
|
|
Other women who were close to the community |
51:08
|
|
agreed with Sally that it shouldn't be privately owned. |
51:10
|
|
It should be a land trust. |
51:14
|
|
So there was pressure on Blue to go that way. |
51:15
|
|
But I know it's what she really wanted inside. |
51:21
|
|
If she didn't have to fear for the property |
51:26
|
|
and, also, sometimes she, one time she said to me, |
51:29
|
|
"I'm afraid if I make it a land trust, |
51:33
|
|
"they'll kick me out." |
51:34
|
|
(they laugh) |
51:35
|
|
Which wouldn't have happened. |
51:40
|
- |
At some point it'd be good to say like |
51:41
|
|
how steady you think it is now. |
51:44
|
|
What it's future could be or. |
51:47
|
- |
Well. |
51:50
|
- |
Well and when you think about trashing |
51:55
|
|
that went on during that period |
52:00
|
|
and how women can get real PC. |
52:02
|
|
I can see where she might have laughed |
52:06
|
|
about being kicked out, but that did happen to people. |
52:07
|
|
You know? |
52:10
|
- |
And she had, you know she had control of this property. |
52:12
|
|
She would tell people no when they wanted to do things |
52:16
|
|
that she didn't think was right. |
52:19
|
|
And she said to me that she had a plan for every inch |
52:20
|
|
of this land, every inch. |
52:22
|
|
(she chuckles) |
52:24
|
|
And that women who came here for a period of time, |
52:26
|
|
just didn't understand that, you know, |
52:30
|
|
and that she had to say no to things. |
52:32
|
|
There were things that she said no to |
52:35
|
|
that women went ahead and did anyway. |
52:36
|
|
Like building the outdoor shower. |
52:39
|
|
And that was a pretty big project. |
52:43
|
|
Sandy was the one who really wanted to do that |
52:50
|
|
because the shower was on the back of her house, |
52:52
|
|
my house now and it was starting to rot out |
52:56
|
|
the wood on the siding. |
52:58
|
- |
So that outdoor shower's been up awhile then? |
53:05
|
- |
Yes, it has. |
53:07
|
|
I don't, I asked Sally recently when it was actually built |
53:09
|
|
because we were having to replace the ramp |
53:13
|
|
and I just wanted to know how long the structure had lasted |
53:16
|
|
so far and we know we're gonna have to replace more. |
53:20
|
|
She couldn't remember exactly when it was built. |
53:27
|
|
She wasn't involved in the building of it |
53:30
|
|
and it was a summer project, not a winter project. |
53:32
|
|
And she told me that Sandy was the one |
53:36
|
|
who spearheaded that project. |
53:38
|
- |
Oh, it was Sandy that wanted the shower? |
53:40
|
- |
Yeah. |
53:42
|
- |
Oh I missed that. |
|
|
I thought it was Sally. |
53:43
|
- |
No, Sandy. |
53:45
|
- |
Sandy who lived here? |
53:46
|
- |
Um-hm. |
|
|
But Sally, she was a wonderful carpenter. |
53:58
|
|
Is a wonderful carpenter and cabinet maker. |
54:02
|
|
That's how she makes her living |
54:04
|
|
and she builds the most gorgeous cabinets. |
54:05
|
|
Beautiful work. |
54:08
|
- |
That was an influence, right there. |
54:11
|
- |
Huge, Sally has done so much here. |
54:13
|
|
Okay, these cinder block walls, |
54:18
|
|
this Sally put in. |
54:20
|
|
The porch bedroom, Sally did all of that. |
54:23
|
|
Not all by herself, other women helped, |
54:27
|
|
but she was the one who was not afraid to do it, you know. |
54:29
|
|
Knew what she was doing. |
54:34
|
- |
And beautiful. |
54:35
|
- |
She said she'd never built with cinder block before |
54:36
|
|
but she just knew she could do it. |
54:38
|
|
Her house in New Jersey is over 200 years old |
54:40
|
|
and she has rebuilt that entire house. |
54:43
|
- |
Where is it in Jersey? |
54:48
|
- |
It's in Deptford, South Jersey. |
54:49
|
|
And the property that Sally's parents had there |
54:55
|
|
was, I think, 14 acres plus two acres |
55:02
|
|
that surrounded the house. |
55:07
|
|
And they made the 14 acres a land trust. |
55:10
|
|
So that's where Sally came up with her experience |
55:16
|
|
with land trusts and that property is still a land trust. |
55:19
|
|
And it's I think entrusted to the Quaker Meeting, I think |
55:22
|
|
and it's called Old Pine Farm. |
55:33
|
|
Now the Quaker Meeting is hoping to be able to buy the house |
55:38
|
|
and Sally would like to sell it. |
55:43
|
|
She has wanted to sell it since her parents died. |
55:45
|
|
It's way to big for one person. |
55:47
|
|
She had wanted to move on. |
55:53
|
- |
So the about a 200 year old house |
55:57
|
|
is her parent's house? |
55:59
|
|
The 200 year old house that she's reworked |
56:01
|
|
you mentioned, that's her parent's house on the land |
56:03
|
|
next to the land trust? |
56:06
|
- |
Right. |
56:08
|
- |
There's a lot of interest in land trusts |
56:10
|
|
at the land meeting. |
56:12
|
- |
Is that right? |
56:13
|
- |
Our discussion of it was well people are getting old |
56:15
|
|
and they need to figure out what to do with the land |
56:18
|
|
to keep it women's land. |
56:20
|
|
The ins and outs of that are not transparent |
56:25
|
|
and if you don't have, like we put our land. |
56:29
|
|
What we did was donate it. |
56:32
|
|
We in fact this year donating our land |
56:33
|
|
to the South Cumberland Land Trust |
56:36
|
|
which is across the street from us, |
56:38
|
|
which is not resident. |
56:40
|
|
It's not even women-owned only. |
56:42
|
|
So, our land is in trust, |
56:47
|
|
but I don't think we have any rules. |
56:49
|
|
We were able to write rule we will be leasing our land |
56:52
|
|
for a dollar a year and paying the taxes |
56:55
|
|
and the maintenance and all of that until our death |
57:00
|
|
and then there's a life insurance policy |
57:03
|
|
that will go to the South Cumberland Land Trust |
57:05
|
|
for future maintenance after we're all gone. |
57:07
|
|
And the lease is something like 35 years |
57:11
|
|
with an option to lease again for another 35, |
57:13
|
|
up to '99, things like that. |
57:17
|
|
But all of this was made simple and it was not simple. |
57:19
|
|
It's taken us years to do this |
57:23
|
|
because the South Cumberland Land Trust |
57:25
|
|
has volunteer lawyers. |
57:27
|
|
They wrote the lease for us and we changed it to say |
57:29
|
|
what we wanted it to say. |
57:31
|
|
They did all the legal work and we just had to, |
57:34
|
|
but not like in-- |
57:37
|
- |
I just stumbled on that, the Land Trusts of Florida. |
57:39
|
- |
Yeah, |
57:43
|
|
that would work. |
57:44
|
- |
Oh, I didn't know |
|
|
that was there. |
57:45
|
- |
That would work. |
57:46
|
- |
I was just glancing, I don't wanna distract you. |
57:47
|
- |
I'm glad you pointed that out because I've never seen it. |
57:51
|
|
(they laugh) |
57:53
|
- |
Well, that's the problem is that every state |
57:55
|
|
has it's own laws about land. |
57:57
|
- |
Right. |
57:59
|
- |
So you can't, like that's a Florida land trust kit. |
58:00
|
|
Now our land is in Tennessee and we all live in Alabama. |
58:03
|
|
You know, so we needed a Tennessee lawyer. |
58:07
|
- |
And do you know about the Mayes, the Mayes |
58:08
|
|
what is it? |
58:15
|
|
There's a publication that-- |
58:16
|
- |
Mayes? |
58:17
|
- |
I know about Mayes but, |
58:19
|
|
they published something about-- |
58:20
|
- |
About different ways to dispose of land in land trusts |
58:22
|
|
and different things, yeah. |
58:28
|
- |
Well, you know there are issues and you can't just give, |
58:31
|
|
we couldn't just give them the land. |
58:34
|
|
They would not take the land without some kind of financial. |
58:36
|
|
We've given away very valuable land |
58:40
|
|
that we get to take off the tax deductions for, |
58:43
|
|
but we have to give them money with it |
58:45
|
|
in order to maintain it after our deaths. |
58:48
|
|
So that's why we have the will |
58:50
|
|
or the what do you call it, the life insurance. |
58:52
|
|
That was a cheap way to do it |
58:54
|
|
and we also had to when we did the conservation easement |
58:55
|
|
we had to give the Tennessee Parks and Greenways, |
58:59
|
|
they have the conservation easement. |
59:02
|
|
We did that first. |
59:03
|
|
And that was not easy either, |
59:07
|
|
'cause you have to find somebody who'll hold it |
59:08
|
|
and manage it and then you have to give them money. |
59:10
|
|
Because they have to be able to like hire people |
59:15
|
|
to go out there and make sure it's being managed properly |
59:18
|
|
and then, sue people if they are not. |
59:21
|
|
So we had to, we got a donation from somebody |
59:24
|
|
who gave the money to Tennessee Parks and Greenways, |
59:30
|
|
we are a not a 501c3, but we do need to do that. |
59:33
|
|
But they were able to give the money in our name. |
59:38
|
- |
Why do you need to be a 501c3? |
59:40
|
- |
We don't. |
59:43
|
- |
You don't. |
59:44
|
- |
I think a land trust does need to be a 501c3, |
59:45
|
|
because you can get more, when people give you money, |
59:49
|
|
they can't take it off their taxes unless you're a 501c3. |
59:52
|
- |
That's right, yeah. |
59:55
|
- |
So if, I mean at some point, they might wanna pay a person |
59:56
|
|
who does what you're doing now. |
1:00:00
|
|
And you might be able to get somebody |
1:00:03
|
|
who would want to pay their salary, |
1:00:04
|
|
but not if they can't take it off their taxes, |
1:00:06
|
|
'cause it's only gonna be a rich person who can do that |
1:00:08
|
|
and rich people won't do it |
1:00:12
|
|
unless they can take if off their taxes. |
1:00:13
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:00:14
|
|
I mean most rich people. |
1:00:15
|
- |
Well, we actually have an umbrella organization |
1:00:16
|
|
the Gandhian foundation which is an organization |
1:00:19
|
|
that was set up by Sally's father |
1:00:22
|
|
and they are a 501c3. |
1:00:25
|
- |
Well now you can umbrella under somebody. |
1:00:27
|
- |
Yes, and so that's what we have done |
1:00:30
|
|
is if women wanna make, anyone could do it, |
1:00:32
|
|
but I mean could make a donation |
1:00:36
|
|
but they want it to be tax deductible, but no one ever does. |
1:00:38
|
|
But we have used the Gandhian Foundation |
1:00:42
|
|
when women wanted to make a large donation, |
1:00:48
|
|
which has happened. |
1:00:52
|
|
Jane and Laya gave us $6,000 for a sewer fund |
1:00:54
|
|
and it's tax deductible for them. |
1:00:59
|
|
And there have been other times when people have given us, |
1:01:03
|
|
you know a good amount of money, |
1:01:06
|
|
but they wanted a tax deduction for it. |
1:01:07
|
|
I think that Alapine will also do that. |
1:01:12
|
|
They will act as an umbrella organization. |
1:01:17
|
|
And they charge something, |
1:01:21
|
|
you know the umbrella organization |
1:01:23
|
|
charges something for that service. |
1:01:24
|
|
In the case of the Gandhian organization |
1:01:27
|
|
it's only 3%. |
1:01:28
|
|
It's very little. |
1:01:30
|
|
Very, very little. |
1:01:32
|
- |
So, when you were thinking about starting a 501c3 |
1:01:44
|
|
you were conflicted about whether to do it |
1:01:46
|
|
because there are all these other ways. |
1:01:48
|
- |
Yes, there are other ways and... |
1:01:50
|
|
But the reason that it feels important to do it now |
1:01:55
|
|
is because we're raising money for this sewer fund. |
1:01:58
|
|
It's gonna put us way over 25,000 a year. |
1:02:02
|
|
And that money, even though it's donated money, |
1:02:06
|
|
it's gotta be accounted for. |
1:02:08
|
|
And it's got to go through our accounts. |
1:02:12
|
|
And maybe it's not really worth it to do it just for that. |
1:02:19
|
|
Maybe we should just file income tax |
1:02:23
|
|
and pay income tax on that money that we raise. |
1:02:25
|
|
We have a little more time to think about it |
1:02:29
|
|
and we'll talk about it at the Board meeting. |
1:02:31
|
- |
Will that be an interest break as you give it |
1:02:33
|
|
or a tax break from giving it into the sewer thing? |
1:02:35
|
|
Like if you give $25,000, you raise it, you pay taxes on it. |
1:02:41
|
|
Then you give it to the sewer fund, |
1:02:46
|
|
do you get to take that off your taxes? |
1:02:48
|
- |
I don't know. |
1:02:50
|
- |
That would be-- |
1:02:51
|
- |
Probably, because it's, you know the sewers, |
1:02:52
|
|
the sewer business is a tax district. |
1:02:56
|
|
It is a tax, you know, it is a tax district |
1:02:59
|
- |
They may have some-- |
1:03:01
|
- |
We have to do it. |
|
|
We don't have a choice about it. |
1:03:02
|
- |
They might have some advice on how to, I mean sometimes-- |
1:03:05
|
- |
They might. |
1:03:09
|
- |
You know, like when you buy a house or sell a house |
1:03:10
|
|
you can sort of put that money somewhere |
1:03:13
|
|
until you buy another one? |
1:03:16
|
- |
Right, right. |
1:03:17
|
- |
'Cause it's-- |
1:03:19
|
- |
And there is an organization in Key West |
1:03:20
|
|
called the Community Foundation of the Florida Keys. |
1:03:22
|
- |
I gotta lie down a few minutes. |
1:03:24
|
- |
And they will be helpful to us in setting up the 501c3. |
1:03:26
|
|
They've already said they would |
1:03:30
|
|
and they are a very good organization |
1:03:31
|
|
that is just an umbrella organization |
1:03:33
|
|
to support nonprofits in the Florida Keys. |
1:03:36
|
- |
Yeah, I think I typed some material you gave me before |
1:03:40
|
|
about the 23 page manual |
1:03:43
|
|
and all the material you have to plate. |
1:03:46
|
|
I know somebody who just set up a 501c3. |
1:03:48
|
|
It hasn't come back. |
1:03:51
|
|
She mailed off everything in I wanna say January |
1:03:52
|
|
and she got a letter, they were saying |
1:03:55
|
|
that she would hear in six weeks |
1:03:58
|
|
and she hadn't heard. |
1:03:59
|
|
You know there was that big scandal |
1:04:02
|
|
about whether the government, the IRS, was profiling. |
1:04:03
|
|
Anyway, of course she setting up for not as a land, |
1:04:12
|
|
she has a charitable, |
1:04:20
|
|
her father has a charitable organization |
1:04:21
|
|
that takes money to Uganda I think |
1:04:23
|
|
or schools or something in Uganda. |
1:04:27
|
|
He goes two or three times a year to Uganda |
1:04:29
|
|
and does stuff, takes books. |
1:04:31
|
|
He wanted her to set up one so that she could do it too. |
1:04:35
|
|
They got that done without too much, |
1:04:42
|
|
but I guess if you've already gotta organization |
1:04:44
|
|
like the, a corporation, nonprofit corporation, |
1:04:47
|
|
you're gonna have a lot more to deal with. |
1:04:50
|
- |
Yeah, well I've done most of the paperwork already. |
1:04:54
|
- |
Wow. |
1:04:58
|
- |
Actually, but I haven't done the part |
1:04:59
|
|
where I have to write narratives about what we do here |
1:05:01
|
|
and I haven't gotten all the financial records together. |
1:05:06
|
|
And I think, if I recall, they just asked for five years, |
1:05:10
|
|
which is good because everything was lost in Wilma. |
1:05:14
|
|
You know, paper gone. |
1:05:16
|
|
And I was treasurer for, I don't know, |
1:05:22
|
|
I can't remember how many years, five to six years. |
1:05:27
|
|
So, I have a lot of that. |
1:05:32
|
|
I have all of it, it's just not quite |
1:05:33
|
|
in the format that it needs to be. |
1:05:36
|
- |
Are there any other women's plans in Florida |
1:05:40
|
|
that have a 501c3? |
1:05:42
|
- |
Good question. |
1:05:45
|
- |
Because there's so many, that are listed in here. |
1:05:46
|
- |
Yeah, but most of them are not you know. |
1:05:48
|
|
Maybe, the Whimsey in West Palm Beach, might. |
1:05:52
|
|
I don't know. |
1:05:59
|
|
What else is there? |
1:06:02
|
|
I don't think Something Special had a 501c3. |
1:06:03
|
|
You know doing it just makes us more visible |
1:06:11
|
|
then we really wanna be. |
1:06:14
|
|
And on the other hand, it also makes us |
1:06:20
|
|
more respectable. |
1:06:22
|
- |
Liable? |
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:06:26
|
- |
You know, after Wilma a lot of women lost their cars. |
1:06:28
|
|
I mean, people lost their cars 'cause they went underwater |
1:06:32
|
|
and you can't put that back together again. |
1:06:35
|
|
So, I applied to the Community Foundation |
1:06:38
|
|
of the Florida Keys for money for a vehicle replacement fund |
1:06:42
|
|
and I set it up so that Sugarloaf would donate $5,000 |
1:06:47
|
|
to this fund and I asked them to donate 10 |
1:06:52
|
|
and they did it. |
1:06:55
|
- |
Wow. |
1:06:56
|
- |
Yeah, so with that money we chose women in the community, |
1:06:57
|
|
not necessarily, some Sugarloaf women, |
1:07:02
|
|
but some women in Key West. |
1:07:05
|
|
Women who we knew and knew had lost their vehicles |
1:07:06
|
|
and we gave each woman $1,000. |
1:07:10
|
|
We were able to help actually more than 15 women, |
1:07:14
|
|
because one wanted to replace a expensive bicycle, |
1:07:17
|
|
one wanted to replace a scooter |
1:07:23
|
|
and one wanted to do some repairs on her car. |
1:07:24
|
|
So it was, you know that was a big thing |
1:07:30
|
|
and the Community Foundation just gave it to us. |
1:07:33
|
|
I mean they didn't question it or anything. |
1:07:37
|
|
They just helped us. |
1:07:40
|
|
And there's someone there, a woman there |
1:07:47
|
|
who says she'll help us with the 501c3 application. |
1:07:49
|
- |
I think there's a lot of boilerplate to it. |
1:08:00
|
|
So if somebody already knows what they're doing |
1:08:01
|
|
and can cut your way through to the parts |
1:08:04
|
|
where you have to fill in the blanks, |
1:08:05
|
|
like an area you need to write, |
1:08:07
|
|
yeah I think you could do it without a lot of trouble. |
1:08:09
|
|
You know, without a lawyer present. |
1:08:13
|
|
You might have to hire a notary or something. |
1:08:14
|
- |
Yeah, probably. |
1:08:18
|
- |
Let's stop. |
1:08:26
|
- |
That was only 35 minutes. |
1:08:28
|
- |
Keep going. |
1:08:30
|
- |
Continuing? |
1:08:31
|
- |
Sure. |
|
- |
Or do you need a break? |
1:08:32
|
- |
I'm okay, if you wanna continue. |
1:08:34
|
- |
Okay, 'cause I was thinking a minute ago |
1:08:36
|
|
when you started talking about Sally, I want to go back. |
1:08:37
|
|
I was thinking about picking up more information |
1:08:43
|
|
about different people who've lived here. |
1:08:45
|
- |
Um-hm, good. |
1:08:47
|
- |
'Cause that's part of what the place is. |
1:08:48
|
- |
Sally contributed so much to this property. |
1:08:52
|
|
She built the cabinets in my house. |
1:08:55
|
|
She redid the kitchen. |
1:08:57
|
|
She did Blue's kitchen. |
1:08:59
|
|
Beautiful cabinets in Blue's kitchen, actually. |
1:09:02
|
|
She did a lot of work in this house after Ruth died. |
1:09:09
|
|
She, Sally and Vogel and Sandy installed |
1:09:12
|
|
pretty much all the windows in this house. |
1:09:17
|
|
And it is wonderful to have so many windows. |
1:09:21
|
|
And I think they, you know these windows were used windows |
1:09:25
|
|
that people in Key West were remodeling around. |
1:09:29
|
- |
What do you call these? |
1:09:33
|
- |
Jalousie windows. |
1:09:34
|
- |
How do you spell that J-A-- |
1:09:35
|
- |
J-A-L-O-U-S-Y. |
1:09:36
|
|
Jalousie. |
1:09:41
|
|
And she still comes. |
1:09:57
|
|
You know, Sally has been here oh, |
1:09:58
|
|
maybe three times since I've lived here, maybe four. |
1:10:01
|
|
And she'll come for a couple of weeks in the winter |
1:10:05
|
|
and she does things. |
1:10:09
|
|
She always does some projects while she's here. |
1:10:11
|
|
Last time she was here she corrected errors |
1:10:13
|
|
in the electrical systems in my house and in the studio. |
1:10:17
|
|
And the time before that when she was here, |
1:10:24
|
|
she helped me enlarge the composting toilet |
1:10:26
|
|
out in the campground. |
1:10:30
|
|
It was really too small to be comfortable. |
1:10:32
|
|
Anyway, she always does some projects |
1:10:38
|
|
and she does everything really well. |
1:10:40
|
|
She knows how to build things. |
1:10:43
|
- |
Well, who else that you haven't talked about much |
1:10:52
|
|
that might be worth talking about. |
1:10:55
|
|
I mean-- |
1:10:59
|
- |
Well, Vogel who lived in the two-story house |
1:11:01
|
|
for maybe 15 years, was really important |
1:11:03
|
|
to the community in some ways. |
1:11:07
|
|
Vogel and Sandy didn't really wanna participate |
1:11:09
|
|
in the community per se, but they did. |
1:11:14
|
|
They did things that they could do. |
1:11:18
|
|
Vogel is an artist |
1:11:20
|
|
and she wanted to spend her time painting. |
1:11:21
|
|
She didn't want to be so involved. |
1:11:27
|
|
In fact, I've been told by women |
1:11:32
|
|
who visited here during the 90s |
1:11:34
|
|
that they didn't even know that that side of the property |
1:11:37
|
|
was part of Sugarloaf Women's Village. |
1:11:41
|
|
But I think you know that, well I don't know. |
1:11:45
|
|
I don't know how many people had that feeling or idea |
1:11:51
|
|
that it wasn't even a part of the property. |
1:11:55
|
- |
What 15 years would that be? |
1:11:58
|
|
When did she leave? |
1:12:00
|
- |
She left in, she left immediately after Blue died. |
1:12:01
|
- |
That would be 1999. |
1:12:09
|
- |
'99, um-hm. |
|
|
So Sandy and Vogel were the only residents here |
1:12:15
|
|
when Blue died, after Blue died. |
1:12:19
|
|
And Sandy and Vogel neither one |
1:12:22
|
|
wanted to take on the responsibility that they saw coming. |
1:12:24
|
|
So Vogel moved immediately. |
1:12:30
|
|
Sandy was furious with her for doing it. |
1:12:31
|
|
They were really good friends, Sandy and Vogel. |
1:12:34
|
|
And Sandy-- |
1:12:38
|
- |
They didn't live together? |
1:12:39
|
- |
No, uh-uh. |
1:12:40
|
- |
Sandy was living here? |
1:12:41
|
- |
Sandy was living in my house. |
1:12:42
|
- |
Okay. |
1:12:44
|
- |
And Vogel lived in the two-story house. |
1:12:45
|
|
So they were next door neighbors, |
1:12:48
|
|
but they had been close friends for years |
1:12:49
|
|
even before Sandy moved here, she was Vogel's friend. |
1:12:51
|
|
But I remember Sandy telling Vogel, |
1:12:57
|
|
"No you can't move, you can't leave." |
1:12:59
|
|
And Vogel said, "Oh, yes I'm going to." |
1:13:01
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:13:03
|
|
So then it was on Sandy's shoulders to be the, you know, |
1:13:05
|
|
the decision maker as the oldest resident and there had, |
1:13:11
|
|
everything had been reorganized to be the land trust. |
1:13:18
|
|
There were purposes and some rules and guidelines |
1:13:20
|
|
and there was more that needed to be worked out. |
1:13:31
|
|
She did not want that responsibility, |
1:13:35
|
|
but she took it on. |
1:13:37
|
|
(she chuckles) |
1:13:44
|
|
She was a very retiring sort of person, Sandy was. |
1:13:46
|
|
So, but she and Vogel both did a lot of the work here. |
1:13:54
|
|
Sandy and Vogel and Sally were the ones who did this house |
1:13:56
|
|
pretty much after Ruth's death. |
1:14:00
|
|
And they did a lot of work on Sandy's house, too. |
1:14:02
|
- |
When did Ruth die? |
1:14:14
|
- |
Ruth died, '90? |
1:14:16
|
- |
It was before Blue, but-- |
1:14:24
|
- |
Yes, it might have been '95. |
1:14:26
|
|
But I have those dates. |
1:14:29
|
|
I can give you the dates of everyone's birth, |
1:14:30
|
|
or at least their death. |
1:14:33
|
- |
Oh, good. |
|
|
Yeah, if I could get that. |
1:14:35
|
|
Just having that information off to the side somewhere |
1:14:37
|
|
helps you fill in pieces when nothing doesn't, |
1:14:40
|
|
when something demands it and you can't remember. |
1:14:43
|
|
So, there's two different reconstruction periods |
1:14:48
|
|
on this house? |
1:14:52
|
- |
Yes. |
1:14:53
|
- |
We pretty well know when it was remodeled |
1:14:54
|
|
after Ruthie Dreamdigger's death. |
1:14:58
|
- |
Right, and then again, after Wilma. |
1:15:00
|
- |
So after Ruth, talk about Ruth Dreamdigger. |
1:15:10
|
|
How long did she live here? |
1:15:12
|
- |
You know, I think that she moved here in the middle |
1:15:19
|
|
or late 80s but I'm not absolutely sure. |
1:15:23
|
|
And I think there might be her autobiography here. |
1:15:25
|
- |
Oh, okay. |
1:15:28
|
- |
It used to live in this drawer. |
1:15:32
|
|
Ruth did write an autobiography, |
1:15:36
|
|
but unfortunately she wrote it on old word processor |
1:15:38
|
|
and now the damn thing. |
1:15:43
|
|
If someone can discover what's on those old discs. |
1:15:46
|
- |
On those discs, but you can scan the printout |
1:15:48
|
|
and digitize it. |
1:15:51
|
- |
You could do what? |
1:15:53
|
- |
You could scan the printout. |
1:15:55
|
|
If you've got a printout, |
1:15:56
|
|
you could scan it and digitize it. |
1:15:57
|
- |
I don't think we have complete printout. |
1:15:59
|
- |
Oh. |
1:16:01
|
- |
I just had a conversation about this recently |
1:16:03
|
|
with Ruth's son and Sally's 'cause we both were hoping. |
1:16:05
|
|
We weren't successful. |
1:16:12
|
|
This is... |
1:16:38
|
|
This is what I was telling you about |
1:16:43
|
|
I've been putting together with Jane. |
1:16:45
|
- |
Oh. |
1:16:48
|
- |
No, this is selective poetry compiled by Quinn. |
1:16:53
|
- |
By Deming? |
1:16:58
|
- |
Um-hm. |
1:16:59
|
|
And this is selected prose compiled by Quinn. |
1:17:00
|
|
This is an oral history that somebody did of Blue, |
1:17:06
|
|
maybe Quinn. |
1:17:09
|
|
Yeah, Quinn, was the interviewer. |
1:17:17
|
|
Oh, and this is an account by Quinn of her |
1:17:22
|
|
of a walk that she did, a long walk that she did. |
1:17:27
|
|
Quinn was not so involved with Sugarloaf |
1:17:38
|
|
as people wish that she were, actually. |
1:17:40
|
- |
Who is Quinn? |
1:17:45
|
|
I don't know in my mind. |
1:17:46
|
- |
Quinn Dilkes, she is a Quaker, |
1:17:48
|
|
lesbian who grew up in Iowa, I think grew up in Iowa |
1:17:52
|
|
and lives in Iowa now again, |
1:18:01
|
|
though she left there for quite some time. |
1:18:03
|
|
She was a close friend of Blue's. |
1:18:07
|
|
You can see some photos of her |
1:18:09
|
|
and, oh, in "Prisons That Cannot Hold", |
1:18:14
|
|
I'm pretty sure there's a photo. |
1:18:17
|
|
Some old photos are here of Quinn... |
1:18:19
|
|
She went to the Seneca Peace Walk or the Seneca. |
1:18:29
|
|
Yeah, here she is. |
1:18:35
|
|
Blue's on one side of Barbara and Quinn's on the other. |
1:18:41
|
- |
Oh, okay. |
1:18:43
|
|
Q-U-I-N-N, okay. |
1:18:46
|
- |
Um-hm. |
1:18:48
|
|
Barbara was very interested |
1:18:52
|
|
in Quinn being a part of this community. |
1:18:56
|
|
You know she wanted, she was hoping Quinn |
1:18:58
|
|
and I would rent this house together. |
1:19:00
|
|
And Quinn, Quinn had this she had this kind of a resentment |
1:19:02
|
|
that people idolized Barbara as much as they did. |
1:19:13
|
|
And she, you know, she didn't wanna see Barbara |
1:19:15
|
|
as the angel that most people saw her as. |
1:19:19
|
|
And she... |
1:19:23
|
|
I have noticed I will say that this is a trait that belongs |
1:19:30
|
|
to many Quaker offspring who have illustrious parents. |
1:19:34
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:19:40
|
|
There's a chronology in here. |
1:19:46
|
- |
Oh. |
1:19:47
|
- |
Let's see what it is. |
1:19:49
|
|
Oh, it's only a chronology of the-- |
1:19:50
|
- |
Peace? |
1:19:53
|
- |
The Peace Encampment. |
|
|
Can you believe these people in Waterloo? |
1:20:15
|
|
I mean look at this. |
1:20:18
|
|
It's horrendous. |
1:20:22
|
|
Why were they so upset? |
1:20:24
|
|
How could they be so violent just to say that, |
1:20:27
|
|
you're gonna totally go up and shoot them in the back. |
1:20:30
|
- |
Sounds like, Sarah Palin does, |
1:20:31
|
|
she says idiotic stuff like that. |
1:20:34
|
|
"Drill, baby, drill." |
1:20:37
|
|
Something I read said that it evokes, |
1:20:43
|
|
that one radical thing like nuclear disarmament, |
1:20:48
|
|
evokes it's opposite. |
1:20:51
|
|
That it, it's like a balancing, |
1:20:54
|
|
it's almost as though somebody wants to balance it back. |
1:20:58
|
|
Creating this opposite movement. |
1:21:00
|
|
You know there was an anti-suffrage movement |
1:21:02
|
|
that women ran in the 19th century? |
1:21:04
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:21:07
|
- |
Unbelievable. |
1:21:09
|
|
This is, here's Barbara blowing a kiss |
1:21:16
|
|
and that was very typical gesture of hers. |
1:21:19
|
|
And some women came here last year or the year before, |
1:21:23
|
|
I think it was the year before. |
1:21:28
|
|
They came to visit Laya and Jane and, who were these women? |
1:21:30
|
|
Maybe Leah Fritz a lesbian, feminist author |
1:21:35
|
|
and her lover, they were Jewish women |
1:21:41
|
|
who wrote about Jewish lesbians. |
1:21:43
|
|
Anyway, I spent some time with them |
1:21:46
|
|
and when they left I did that. |
1:21:49
|
|
I never do that and I just, the moment that I did it |
1:21:51
|
|
I felt like I was channeling Barbara. |
1:21:56
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:21:58
|
|
It was so odd. |
1:22:01
|
|
I felt like she was in me doing it. |
1:22:02
|
- |
That's interesting. |
1:22:08
|
- |
I had an interesting experience, |
1:22:09
|
|
similar kind of thing with Sandy after Sandy's death. |
1:22:10
|
|
And I was not really close to Sandy. |
1:22:15
|
|
But after I had been living in her house |
1:22:18
|
|
for maybe three months or so, |
1:22:23
|
|
so within six months of her death, |
1:22:27
|
|
I was up in the night |
1:22:30
|
|
and I could just feel, I just felt her presence. |
1:22:32
|
|
And I felt like she wanted me to let her look |
1:22:37
|
|
through my eyes and see how things were here. |
1:22:43
|
|
And so, that felt okay to me |
1:22:47
|
|
and so I took an invitational stance |
1:22:49
|
|
and then I walked all around the property |
1:22:54
|
|
and looked at things and, you know, |
1:22:58
|
|
didn't really talk with her about it or anything. |
1:23:00
|
|
But just felt that she was in me being able to look out, |
1:23:02
|
|
look through my eyes and feel my emotions about the place. |
1:23:08
|
|
And so, that only happened one time. |
1:23:12
|
|
There was nothing like that ever again, |
1:23:15
|
|
but I started wondering why did Sandy want to do that |
1:23:17
|
|
if she could be here and see things for herself |
1:23:22
|
|
why did she wanna do it that way? |
1:23:25
|
|
And I spoke to a very spiritual woman |
1:23:27
|
|
who is a Science of Mind practitioner |
1:23:30
|
|
and asked her what she thought of that |
1:23:32
|
|
and she said, "Oh, obviously, |
1:23:35
|
|
"she wanted to feel your appreciation of it." |
1:23:37
|
|
That's what she wanted. |
1:23:41
|
|
And when she said that I thought that's true. |
1:23:42
|
|
That is you know how things just ring true. |
1:23:44
|
|
But that was what it was. |
1:23:47
|
- |
You know Abraham, |
1:23:51
|
|
you know Abraham he used to listen that a lot |
1:23:52
|
|
and they talk about how being on the leading edge |
1:23:56
|
|
and being in the physical manifestation is desirable. |
1:24:02
|
|
You know, when you're in non-physical |
1:24:07
|
|
there is a desire to be in the physical. |
1:24:10
|
- |
Yeah, they say that. |
1:24:12
|
- |
So maybe that was part of that. |
1:24:14
|
|
That there's a different, |
1:24:18
|
|
non-physical is, what do they call it? |
1:24:20
|
|
I can't think of the words they use for, |
1:24:23
|
|
you know, your pure joy, pure everything. |
1:24:26
|
|
But there's something about being in physical form |
1:24:30
|
|
that adds to it. |
1:24:33
|
- |
And so much more focused. |
1:24:34
|
|
It's a focus. |
1:24:37
|
- |
They talk more and more about non-physical |
1:24:42
|
|
and death since Jerry died. |
1:24:45
|
|
Did you listen once to the ones where Oprah |
1:24:50
|
|
talks about she hesitates now. |
1:24:52
|
|
To make the CDs that they send out. |
1:24:56
|
|
And he used to do that. |
1:24:58
|
- |
Right. |
1:25:01
|
- |
She's feeling like she knows how to do things |
1:25:02
|
|
she doesn't know how to do. |
1:25:04
|
|
Sort of felt it. |
1:25:07
|
- |
Yes, and I like it a lot |
1:25:09
|
|
that she's been talking about that sort of thing. |
1:25:11
|
|
I have experienced a lot of things like that over the years |
1:25:16
|
|
and yeah, when I want to do something well, |
1:25:20
|
|
sometimes I do ask for that kind of help. |
1:25:25
|
|
Sometimes I ask Barbara. |
1:25:28
|
- |
You should ask her to help you write those narratives |
1:25:31
|
|
that you need for the 501c3. |
1:25:33
|
- |
Oh, that's a good idea. |
1:25:34
|
|
(they laugh) |
1:25:36
|
- |
She's such a good writer. |
1:25:37
|
- |
Yes. |
1:25:38
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:25:39
|
|
Oh, that's a good idea. |
1:25:40
|
|
You know sometimes we feel, or I do, feel so alone |
1:25:43
|
|
in what I'm doing and yet, we never really are. |
1:25:47
|
|
We never really have to be anyway. |
1:25:51
|
|
There is a whole, there's a whole, huge number of people |
1:25:53
|
|
behind us who we can bring forward into our consciousness |
1:25:58
|
|
and who can help us or share something with us. |
1:26:01
|
- |
Oh, I need a break. |
1:26:11
|
|
Let's stop the tape for awhile. |
1:26:12
|
|
About doing oral histories. |
1:26:15
|
- |
Okay, she was an old friend of Blue's. |
1:26:18
|
|
She and Blue had been friends for a long time. |
1:26:23
|
|
Quinn, |
1:26:26
|
|
she didn't wanna be so involved with Sugarloaf |
1:26:34
|
|
in certain ways, but she came here quite a bit |
1:26:36
|
|
to visit with Blue and then after Barbara's death, |
1:26:41
|
|
she grew closer to Jane and she did this. |
1:26:44
|
|
She put together some of Jane's poetry |
1:26:49
|
|
and prose and she also transcribed Jane's journals. |
1:26:51
|
|
And spent quite a bit of time on that. |
1:26:56
|
|
Now where those journals are I don't know. |
1:27:00
|
|
I don't think they're here. |
1:27:04
|
|
And it might be, you can see that there's water damage |
1:27:06
|
|
to things and to this. |
1:27:09
|
|
It might be that the journals were lost in the storm, |
1:27:11
|
|
I'm not sure. |
1:27:15
|
|
Oh my God, I love some of her poetry. |
1:27:23
|
|
(she chuckles) |
1:27:25
|
|
"Ode Upon a Banana Leaf", that was a good one |
1:27:29
|
|
and "Goodbye Banana Tree". |
1:27:34
|
|
And there's one about cats (laughs) it was really good. |
1:27:36
|
|
Oh, here it is, "Cat". |
1:27:42
|
|
I just wanna read this to you. |
1:27:45
|
- |
Well, read it. |
1:27:47
|
- |
Jane's poetry, I love it. |
1:27:48
|
|
I thought that said, "Cat", 106. |
1:27:54
|
|
(bird whistling) |
1:28:01
|
|
"Cat", cat how many lives are left to you? |
1:28:01
|
|
Only a few or one or two or one? |
1:28:06
|
|
What if your latest life turned out to be ultimate cat? |
1:28:09
|
|
Cat in her last change, eternal cat. |
1:28:12
|
|
First there was cat of the night who walks by herself |
1:28:16
|
|
and watchful cat who waits at the hole |
1:28:20
|
|
where last she saw the critter. |
1:28:22
|
|
That hungry cat craves and fierce cat will devour. |
1:28:24
|
|
Particularly the small inner organs she needs to fill |
1:28:27
|
|
her with new milk enriched for her litter. |
1:28:30
|
|
Then, silent and secret cat who returns to her lair |
1:28:33
|
|
is converted at one stroke into many, |
1:28:37
|
|
all the cats in the universe, |
1:28:39
|
|
suckling them, being so pleased with herself. |
1:28:40
|
|
Perhaps we loved you best proud cat |
1:28:44
|
|
as you not failed to lick your dainty wrists |
1:28:47
|
|
after licking your furry kittens till they squeaked. |
1:28:50
|
|
Ah, the changes were so many. |
1:28:54
|
|
There was curious cat. |
1:28:56
|
|
She will inspect the unusual or die in the attempt |
1:28:57
|
|
and die she did and revived a million times |
1:29:01
|
|
to creep once more toward the light, |
1:29:04
|
|
till envious cat felt the warmth of the fire |
1:29:07
|
|
and the fear of it in balance. |
1:29:09
|
|
And one chill night creeping close |
1:29:11
|
|
it was the friendly gesture of an orange, greasy arm |
1:29:14
|
|
tossing another log on the fire |
1:29:17
|
|
and beckoning who called to her so gently |
1:29:19
|
|
that she came and crouched close by. |
1:29:21
|
|
Was hearth cat, cat of the hearths she became. |
1:29:24
|
|
Wilderness came in the glowing moment |
1:29:28
|
|
which looked to last forever. |
1:29:30
|
|
Being neither tamed nor untamed. |
1:29:32
|
|
Call it inspiration and hearth keeper, |
1:29:35
|
|
log tosser was thrilled and charmed, understood by it, |
1:29:37
|
|
understood it. |
1:29:41
|
|
How many more millenniums will it take for hearth cat |
1:29:42
|
|
to become bedroom cat? |
1:29:47
|
|
Making nights musical with purring, |
1:29:48
|
|
with bed made cozy |
1:29:51
|
|
and love made delicate. |
1:29:52
|
|
Oh, delicate cat who taught you to sleep so daintily? |
1:29:54
|
|
You say you taught yourself, oh, considerate cat. |
1:29:59
|
|
Perhaps we admired you more to be so small |
1:30:02
|
|
and yet to understand what it was to be human. |
1:30:06
|
|
To need you and not need you. |
1:30:09
|
|
To have you and not have you. |
1:30:11
|
|
Perhaps it was you we loved the best |
1:30:13
|
|
all night long in bed with you. |
1:30:15
|
|
Meanwhile, the millennium fly by there were so many changes, |
1:30:17
|
|
such terrible ones, buffetings |
1:30:21
|
|
and starvations, torture, too. |
1:30:24
|
|
Oh, cat what you went through to steal bits of decaying guts |
1:30:26
|
|
so you could live and return to your litter |
1:30:30
|
|
and cat of the city, wild once more. |
1:30:32
|
|
Hugging the stream corridor, hugging the steam corridor |
1:30:35
|
|
in the dead of winter so you could live. |
1:30:39
|
|
What you did to live, you would do anything. |
1:30:42
|
|
Cannibal, you courageous animal. |
1:30:45
|
|
Then there was pampered cat. |
1:30:47
|
|
Not much to tell of her, |
1:30:49
|
|
except that she was sometimes cross-eyed |
1:30:50
|
|
and didn't get to see the wilderness hardly. |
1:30:53
|
|
And educated cat, what of you? |
1:30:55
|
|
And cultivated cat, accounts are unreliable |
1:30:57
|
|
but it seems that they have learned to read |
1:31:00
|
|
and write and paint and sing and make money, too. |
1:31:03
|
|
All of a summer's evening |
1:31:06
|
|
we begin to see your work everywhere. |
1:31:07
|
|
The sun setting gloriously in the west |
1:31:10
|
|
and unique sky colors and cloud formations |
1:31:12
|
|
never seen before and never to be seen again. |
1:31:15
|
|
Always to be made new, uniquely new. |
1:31:18
|
|
This was your idea? |
1:31:21
|
|
So desperately, you say it. |
1:31:23
|
|
Oh, cat of my heart I believe you. |
1:31:25
|
|
This sunset was your idea? |
1:31:27
|
|
This earth, this ocean? |
1:31:29
|
|
In the next instant you could say you disdain to own it? |
1:31:31
|
|
That it was your idea and your object? |
1:31:35
|
|
(Corky laughs) |
1:31:38
|
|
Now tell me cat of the future, |
1:31:40
|
|
tell me your plans if you have any. |
1:31:41
|
|
Cat, I want to live in the country in the summer |
1:31:44
|
|
and in the city in the winter. |
1:31:47
|
|
Real country with real mice in the fields |
1:31:49
|
|
and real city with flowing hearth |
1:31:51
|
|
and clean beds to sleep upon and loving friends. |
1:31:53
|
|
None of your steam pipes and decaying guts. |
1:31:56
|
|
Good food for all cats, this is very important |
1:31:59
|
|
and if we don't get it, we will go on cat strike. |
1:32:02
|
|
We most certainly will. |
1:32:05
|
|
Cat strike, what is that? |
1:32:07
|
|
We will shit and piss on your bed. |
1:32:10
|
|
We will scratch your face and your best furniture. |
1:32:12
|
|
But cat, you are so little and we are so big |
1:32:15
|
|
and have ways of dealing with cats as an entire race. |
1:32:17
|
|
We could wipe you out over night. |
1:32:21
|
|
One way or the other, either you have us or you don't. |
1:32:24
|
|
Decency or death. |
1:32:27
|
|
Ask the other cats they'll say the same. |
1:32:28
|
|
Okay, cat you win. |
1:32:31
|
|
We don't want to live without you. |
1:32:33
|
|
We can't live without you and we admit it. |
1:32:34
|
|
What next? |
1:32:37
|
|
Wait and see, I'll figure it out as I go. |
1:32:38
|
|
But get this, no more killing. |
1:32:41
|
|
No more armies. |
1:32:43
|
|
No more guns. |
1:32:44
|
|
No more missiles. |
1:32:45
|
|
No more wars, no more of that, any of it or else. |
1:32:46
|
|
Else what, cat? |
1:32:50
|
|
We'll take back our ideas. |
1:32:51
|
|
You mean the sunset, the oceans? |
1:32:54
|
|
Yes. |
1:32:56
|
|
Isn't that great? |
1:32:59
|
|
(they laugh) |
1:33:00
|
- |
It is. |
1:33:01
|
- |
And it says '73 or '74. |
1:33:03
|
- |
Wow. |
1:33:06
|
- |
I love Jane's poetry. |
1:33:07
|
|
I think it's fabulous. |
1:33:08
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:33:14
|
- |
I wanna read that book. |
1:33:17
|
- |
Yeah, good. |
1:33:19
|
|
So this is all poetry and this is prose. |
1:33:23
|
- |
Wow, wow. |
1:33:25
|
- |
Here's another Jane or maybe it's the same Jane |
1:33:29
|
|
with a different last name. |
1:33:32
|
- |
Gapen and Verlaine. |
1:33:33
|
- |
Okay, it's two different people? |
1:33:35
|
- |
No, the same person. |
1:33:36
|
- |
No, it's all Jane. |
|
|
Here's what it's about as far as I can figure out. |
1:33:39
|
|
You know Jane like a lot of lesbians had been straight |
1:33:43
|
|
and had children and in addition to that, |
1:33:47
|
|
she was adopted by an aunt and raised by this aunt. |
1:33:52
|
|
So, she had there was a third name, Watrous. |
1:33:56
|
|
W-A-T-R-O-U-S. |
1:34:00
|
|
Watrous was her aunt's name and she went by that for awhile. |
1:34:03
|
|
Verlaine was her husband's name, but more importantly, |
1:34:08
|
|
it was her children's name. |
1:34:11
|
|
Gapen was her, well now, I might be wrong. |
1:34:14
|
|
Gapen might be the aunt's name |
1:34:19
|
|
and Watrous be her family name. |
1:34:20
|
|
One or the other. |
1:34:24
|
|
Some of her books are written in the name of Jane Gapen |
1:34:26
|
|
and sometimes she used Verlaine. |
1:34:29
|
|
I'm trying to see if, she didn't publish it. |
1:34:32
|
|
Jane didn't write a lot of books, |
1:34:35
|
|
but sometimes she went by Verlaine and sometimes as Gapen. |
1:34:37
|
- |
And who is this Jane Meyerding |
1:34:40
|
|
that gave to the collection of Barbara's stuff? |
1:34:41
|
- |
I don't, I don't know. |
1:34:47
|
|
I mean I know the name, but I don't know who she is. |
1:34:52
|
- |
Oh, okay. |
1:34:55
|
- |
The name is familiar but. |
1:34:57
|
- |
Is that |
1:35:07
|
- |
And Sky Vanderlinden-- |
|
- |
in a book form, her poetry in a book form? |
1:35:08
|
- |
Here and there, bits of it is. |
1:35:13
|
|
And Vanderlinden, Sky Vanderlinden there is a E on the end. |
1:35:19
|
- |
There is an E? |
1:35:24
|
- |
Um-hm. |
1:35:24
|
|
See Sky was Barbara's literary editor, |
1:35:25
|
|
no literary executor for awhile |
1:35:28
|
|
and then she gave up that position. |
1:35:30
|
|
In the course of going through Barbara's papers, |
1:35:43
|
|
she found that there was a file that had Blue's name on it |
1:35:45
|
|
and in that file was all the letters |
1:35:49
|
|
and everything from Sky and from Blue, |
1:35:51
|
|
it was combined in this one file with Blue's name on it |
1:35:54
|
|
and she really didn't like that at all. |
1:35:57
|
|
You know, but you know people have such a hard time |
1:36:00
|
|
excepting that someone has favorites. |
1:36:06
|
|
You know, everybody thinks parents |
1:36:10
|
|
should not have a favorite child. |
1:36:11
|
|
You know, I get it because I have a favorite cat. |
1:36:14
|
|
You know, but people do have favorites, |
1:36:17
|
|
they do love one person more than the other |
1:36:19
|
|
and that's just human nature. |
1:36:21
|
- |
And who did Barbara love? |
1:36:27
|
|
Sky was upset that Blue. |
1:36:30
|
- |
Blue, Blue. |
|
- |
That Barbara loved Blue more |
1:36:33
|
|
than Sky? |
1:36:34
|
- |
Yes, um-hm. |
1:36:35
|
- |
Gosh, that's a waste of sweaty brains. |
1:36:37
|
- |
Yeah. |
1:36:41
|
|
(she laughs) |
|
|
Yes, and you know when Sky, when Sky and Blue broke up, |
1:36:56
|
|
Sky moved into the two-story house, |
1:37:00
|
|
but then this house was in both of their names, |
1:37:03
|
|
as well as Barbara and Jane's. |
1:37:06
|
|
So I don't know what transpired, |
1:37:08
|
|
if Sky gave up her legal ownership of that house or what. |
1:37:11
|
|
I don't know. |
1:37:19
|
|
That might not have happened until Blue was dying, |
1:37:21
|
|
if that was the case. |
1:37:24
|
- |
When everything got put in the land trust? |
1:37:25
|
- |
Yeah. |
1:37:26
|
- |
Didn't Blue quit wanting to make love with Sky? |
1:37:27
|
- |
I don't have any idea. |
1:37:32
|
- |
It's all inexplicable. |
1:37:33
|
- |
I don't know. |
1:37:37
|
|
You know, I left here not long after Barbara's death, |
1:37:38
|
|
I was having, I was not feeling so comfortable here |
1:37:43
|
|
because there was a lot of bickering |
1:37:46
|
|
and people kind of jockeying for position. |
1:37:48
|
|
And because I wasn't grieving Barbara |
1:37:51
|
|
the way other people were. |
1:37:55
|
|
I really was accepting of her death. |
1:37:57
|
|
So I needed to not be here |
1:38:02
|
|
and I didn't intend to live here anyway, |
1:38:05
|
|
back then. |
1:38:08
|
|
I was surprised when Blue and Sky broke up. |
1:38:19
|
|
But, Blue would leave Sugarloaf |
1:38:23
|
|
and go take care of someone like she did with Barbara. |
1:38:28
|
|
She went for three or four months to New York |
1:38:30
|
|
to be near Barbara while she was undergoing her treatment |
1:38:33
|
|
and Sky was left behind. |
1:38:37
|
|
And then, Blue left a couple of more times |
1:38:40
|
|
to take care of ex-lovers who were dying |
1:38:43
|
|
of one thing or another. |
1:38:47
|
|
That was hard on Sky. |
1:38:56
|
|
I remember Quinn saying one time that she encouraged |
1:39:08
|
|
Sky to leave Blue and to get out of, the way she put it was, |
1:39:15
|
|
to get out of that sexless relationship, |
1:39:20
|
|
something like that. |
1:39:25
|
- |
You were gonna talk about Ruth Dreamdigger a little bit. |
1:39:36
|
- |
Okay, Ruth, I never knew Ruth very well. |
1:39:38
|
|
She came here after I was not around |
1:39:42
|
|
and she was another Quaker who had lived in |
1:39:48
|
|
a Quaker community in Philadelphia. |
1:39:54
|
|
The Quaker's owned a few houses in Philadelphia |
1:39:56
|
|
that were group homes. |
1:39:59
|
- |
Who're you talking |
|
|
about now? |
1:40:00
|
- |
Hm? |
1:40:01
|
- |
Who are you talking about now? |
1:40:02
|
- |
Ruth. |
1:40:02
|
- |
Ruth, okay. |
|
- |
Ruth. |
1:40:05
|
- |
Ruth, Ruth. |
|
- |
Ruth Dreamdigger. |
1:40:07
|
|
The Quaker's owned a few houses in Philadelphia |
1:40:08
|
|
that were group homes and Ruth lived in one of those |
1:40:10
|
|
with her husband, she was a straight woman. |
1:40:13
|
|
And she had some sons, two who where adults, way adults |
1:40:16
|
|
by the time she lived here. |
1:40:25
|
|
And she was very interested in dream work |
1:40:28
|
|
and she held dream circles, led dream circles. |
1:40:31
|
|
She even came, well we invited her to come |
1:40:36
|
|
to Ft. Lauderdale to the Mermaid Inn |
1:40:38
|
|
and do a dream circle there which she did. |
1:40:40
|
|
She was very well loved by the women here. |
1:40:44
|
|
She was a really, she was a good counselor. |
1:40:46
|
|
She also I think, did re-evaluation counseling. |
1:40:51
|
|
I'm pretty sure she did. |
1:40:55
|
|
And she was willing to counsel them as the needed it. |
1:40:59
|
|
I know she was very well loved. |
1:41:03
|
- |
You know what it says in that re-evaluation manual? |
1:41:06
|
|
That you shouldn't have any other kind of relationship |
1:41:11
|
|
with your co-counseling partners. |
1:41:14
|
|
Like no social relationship, |
1:41:17
|
|
no romantic relationship, et cetera. |
1:41:20
|
- |
Well, that would be hard to accomplish, I would think. |
1:41:23
|
- |
And they have this on the, |
1:41:25
|
|
originally they had those principles written on pages |
1:41:28
|
|
that were blue and people referred to them later |
1:41:32
|
|
as the blue pages and that's what they were talking about. |
1:41:36
|
|
I guess it was a pretty, you know, |
1:41:39
|
|
like the ban against any socializing. |
1:41:42
|
- |
Uh-huh, it would be hard. |
1:41:45
|
|
You know that's more like the relationship |
1:41:48
|
|
you would have with a paid therapist. |
1:41:50
|
|
Because you know, who would you trust |
1:41:52
|
|
to do that sort of work with? |
1:41:56
|
|
People you know. |
1:41:58
|
- |
Yeah, yeah. |
1:42:00
|
|
I never knew anybody that paid attention to that rule. |
1:42:03
|
- |
No, I didn't either, no. |
1:42:08
|
|
Okay, Ruth. |
1:42:12
|
|
What else, this is a photograph of Ruth. |
1:42:13
|
- |
Oh. |
1:42:18
|
- |
With the rose in her teeth. |
1:42:20
|
- |
Yeah. |
1:42:21
|
- |
And this is Ruth's hat hanging right above it. |
1:42:22
|
|
And this is a painting of Ruth that Vogel did. |
1:42:31
|
|
This is how the porch used to look. |
1:42:36
|
|
It was a screened porch. |
1:42:38
|
- |
And she's working at a desk. |
1:42:44
|
|
Was she a writer? |
1:42:46
|
- |
I think she was working on her autobiography. |
1:42:48
|
|
Well, I don't know what she was working on at that moment, |
1:42:51
|
|
but yeah, but she did write that. |
1:42:53
|
|
She might be looking at the newspaper there, too. |
1:42:59
|
- |
It's hard to see. |
1:43:02
|
|
She's so close to it. |
1:43:03
|
|
She's leaning so close. |
1:43:05
|
- |
Yes, yeah. |
1:43:06
|
- |
Where were you in Wilma, when everything was flooded? |
1:43:20
|
- |
When everything was what? |
1:43:25
|
- |
Where did you go? |
1:43:26
|
- |
Oh, I stayed at a friend's house in Key West. |
1:43:27
|
|
Right on White Street, near the White Street Pier. |
1:43:32
|
- |
That's the Old Town, it wasn't flooded. |
1:43:36
|
- |
White Street is sort of between Old Town and New Town |
1:43:40
|
|
and it did flood, but not so much. |
1:43:43
|
|
You know, I walked down to the beach in the morning |
1:43:47
|
|
when the storm had abated and while I was walking back, |
1:43:49
|
|
the first storm surge arrived and so on my way back |
1:43:54
|
|
I was walking in knee-deep water. |
1:43:58
|
- |
Oh, my God. |
1:44:01
|
- |
And then, the second storm surge came |
1:44:02
|
|
a couple of hours later and it swept my scooter away. |
1:44:05
|
|
I had a big scooter, |
1:44:08
|
|
a big one |
1:44:10
|
- |
Wow, shoot. |
|
- |
That I could ride on the highway. |
1:44:13
|
- |
Wow. |
1:44:15
|
- |
And it took it. |
1:44:16
|
- |
That is so. |
1:44:18
|
|
You know you think the storm is over and the surge is over |
1:44:20
|
|
and then there's another surge. |
1:44:24
|
- |
And there's another one, yeah. |
1:44:25
|
|
You know they say that it was a particular combination |
1:44:27
|
|
of astronomical events and tides that caused that |
1:44:33
|
|
and that hopefully, it would never happen again, |
1:44:39
|
|
things would not come together that way again. |
1:44:41
|
|
It had to do with the stars and the moon |
1:44:50
|
|
and the, how long and how far the wind |
1:44:52
|
|
traveled across the water. |
1:44:58
|
|
You know it was a lot of different things. |
1:45:00
|
|
And it caused the NOAA to begin keeping records |
1:45:03
|
|
and projecting storm surge. |
1:45:08
|
|
That summer, the Wilma thing and the Katrina. |
1:45:13
|
|
Now when they're, during hurricane season, |
1:45:23
|
|
you can look on the NOA website |
1:45:25
|
|
and see if there's a hurricane coming |
1:45:27
|
|
what the storm surge prediction is, |
1:45:29
|
|
but that didn't used to be the case. |
1:45:31
|
- |
We talked about Ruth Dreamdigger. |
1:45:42
|
- |
What else can I say about Ruth? |
1:45:44
|
|
How about you, Corky? |
1:45:47
|
|
Did you know Ruth very well? |
1:45:48
|
- |
I just don't remember. |
1:45:58
|
|
I mean I knew her, I talked with her. |
1:46:00
|
|
I may have video taped her. |
1:46:02
|
|
I remember that she read that thing about Ntozake Shange |
1:46:06
|
|
at the UU Church, but nothing more. |
1:46:11
|
|
I'm going to look, bring up those old files |
1:46:16
|
|
and things, those old videos and see what I have on them. |
1:46:20
|
|
I talked to Blue a really long time on video. |
1:46:27
|
- |
Yeah? |
1:46:30
|
- |
Yeah, I just don't, I've got a few very brief things |
1:46:32
|
|
from that church thing of Ruth and Jane reading. |
1:46:39
|
- |
Oh, Jane read at the UU's also. |
1:46:44
|
- |
Uh-huh. |
1:46:45
|
- |
Oh. |
1:46:46
|
- |
And I went out to, went out with Jane |
1:46:51
|
|
and we hung out. |
1:46:55
|
|
I remember I told her, I said, |
1:46:57
|
|
"Jane, your sweater's on inside out." |
1:46:58
|
|
And she says, "I don't care." |
1:47:01
|
|
(they laugh) |
1:47:03
|
- |
Jane was-- |
1:47:05
|
- |
She took me to a really, |
|
|
really nice restaurant, an outdoor restaurant. |
1:47:07
|
|
It was nice. |
1:47:11
|
- |
With the sweater on inside out? |
1:47:13
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:47:14
|
- |
Yes, yes. |
1:47:15
|
- |
That's Jane. |
1:47:16
|
|
She did not care about appearances, she really didn't. |
1:47:17
|
|
Neither did Barbara so much, you know. |
1:47:26
|
|
They both wore clothes that they'd had for years |
1:47:29
|
|
and years and years. |
1:47:31
|
|
Good clothes, but old clothes. |
1:47:34
|
- |
I did that. |
1:47:39
|
|
When I like something, I'll keep it going. |
1:47:40
|
- |
Me, (laughs) too. |
1:47:42
|
- |
Forever and ever and ever and ever. |
1:47:43
|
|
And I, like that blue shirt I had on yesterday? |
1:47:45
|
- |
Uh-huh. |
1:47:49
|
- |
I've got like the pocket all wore out |
1:47:50
|
|
and so I, that's iron-on tape there. |
1:47:52
|
|
You can't really tell, unless I tell you. |
1:47:55
|
- |
I didn't notice. |
1:47:57
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:47:58
|
- |
Yeah. |
1:48:01
|
|
I mean when I like something, |
1:48:03
|
|
I just hate to have to lose it. |
1:48:05
|
|
This one is ancient, I like it. |
1:48:11
|
|
When it gets so threadbare that it starts coming apart, |
1:48:18
|
|
I just wear it on fragile occasions. |
1:48:22
|
|
(they laugh) |
1:48:26
|
- |
Well, are we at a stopping place? |
1:48:37
|
|
I need to come back. |
1:48:40
|
- |
When at the north 40 when we had LeAP? |
1:48:42
|
- |
Um-hm. |
1:48:44
|
- |
She was there and the night that we got invaded by men, |
1:48:46
|
|
a truckload of men screaming at us |
1:48:58
|
|
and yelling dyke, dyke and all this. |
1:49:00
|
|
And that was the beautiful occasion when everybody ran up, |
1:49:03
|
|
they blew the whistle and everybody ran up the road |
1:49:07
|
|
with flashlights and mirrors |
1:49:11
|
|
to reflect their energy back on them. |
1:49:14
|
|
That was our weapon. |
1:49:17
|
- |
That's great. |
1:49:19
|
- |
And it worked perfectly. |
1:49:20
|
|
The men, the truckload drove away. |
1:49:21
|
|
I mean wouldn't you if a bunch of women with mirrors |
1:49:25
|
|
and flashlights were-- |
1:49:28
|
- |
Yeah, they already thought |
1:49:30
|
|
you were a bunch of crazy witches, I'm sure. |
1:49:31
|
|
When you did that that confirmed it. |
1:49:33
|
- |
That night we were up there at the gate, |
1:49:35
|
|
somebody talked about they wished or they had had a gun |
1:49:37
|
|
and we said we don't allow guns on this land. |
1:49:41
|
|
And then we had like a circle and Blue was the header, |
1:49:46
|
|
a main person sort of, talking about non-violence. |
1:49:51
|
|
And about 15 or so of us stayed up there near the gate, |
1:49:55
|
|
just like until dawn, |
1:50:01
|
|
standing in a circle talking about non-violence. |
1:50:03
|
|
And that was one of those nights when Blue |
1:50:07
|
|
had that gravitas you know that we, |
1:50:10
|
|
it was like she was channeling Barbara |
1:50:16
|
|
or something you know. |
1:50:18
|
|
And it was fantastically moving and serious |
1:50:22
|
|
and deep the whole discussion we had. |
1:50:26
|
|
Recommitting ourselves to non-violence. |
1:50:29
|
- |
Very good. |
1:50:33
|
- |
And that was an overlap of LeAP. |
1:50:36
|
|
And Blue and Vogel and Barbara Esteral |
1:50:39
|
|
came up to my croning on the north 40. |
1:50:45
|
- |
Blue came to mine, too. |
1:50:51
|
- |
I've got a tape of that night of different things. |
1:50:55
|
|
That was fun. |
1:50:59
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:51:01
|
- |
I remember your croning. |
1:51:02
|
- |
Where was your croning? |
1:51:03
|
|
Was it here? |
1:51:05
|
- |
No, it was in Gainesville, yeah. |
1:51:06
|
|
And Blue came up and she brought me a present. |
1:51:08
|
|
It was a Lignum Vitae tree in a pot |
1:51:11
|
|
and Lignum Vitae is a tree that grows here in the Keys, |
1:51:15
|
|
it's indigenous and it was pretty much decimated |
1:51:19
|
|
by shipbuilders at one point, |
1:51:23
|
|
because it's a really dense wood. |
1:51:24
|
|
Maybe the densest wood in the world. |
1:51:26
|
|
And so they used it for machinery. |
1:51:29
|
|
And anyway, she brought me this little Lignum Vitae tree |
1:51:33
|
|
in a pot and then when I sold my house in Gainesville |
1:51:35
|
|
and bought the boat and moved onto the boat, |
1:51:39
|
|
I couldn't keep that little tree anymore |
1:51:41
|
|
and I didn't wanna leave it behind. |
1:51:43
|
|
It couldn't go in the ground in Gainesville, it's topical. |
1:51:46
|
|
So I brought it back here and I planted it |
1:51:48
|
|
right near the cottage and it's still there. |
1:51:51
|
- |
Oh, how wonderful. |
1:51:54
|
- |
It's a good sized tree now. |
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:51:56
|
- |
I want you to show us that. |
1:51:57
|
- |
Okay. |
1:51:58
|
- |
That's great. |
1:51:59
|
- |
It's a very slow growing tree. |
1:52:01
|
|
Here's something that Jane wrote about Adrienne Rich. |
1:52:03
|
- |
That's the French pronunciation, Adrienne. |
1:52:15
|
- |
Yeah, I guess that's-- |
1:52:18
|
- |
They like to emphasize the last syllable. |
1:52:19
|
- |
That's the way Adrienne Monnier's name is pronounced, |
1:52:27
|
|
that's the only reason |
1:52:30
|
- |
Adrienne. |
|
- |
I know that because Sylvia Beech |
1:52:31
|
|
was with Adrienne Monnier. |
1:52:32
|
- |
Monnier, Adrienne. |
1:52:34
|
- |
Adrienne. |
1:52:36
|
|
(they laugh) |
1:52:37
|
- |
Here's a piece she wrote about Adrienne. |
1:52:40
|
|
This is a letter to the editor to the Key West Newspaper, |
1:52:47
|
|
this is about domestic violence in a letter to the editor. |
1:52:52
|
|
These are all letters to the editor. |
1:52:56
|
|
Jane was really a good writer, too. |
1:52:59
|
|
But she focused more on her art |
1:53:02
|
|
and Barbara was a good painter, |
1:53:07
|
|
but she focused on writing. |
1:53:10
|
- |
Huh. |
1:53:12
|
|
Well they were a good pair |
1:53:15
|
|
I wish they could have been totally happy. |
1:53:16
|
|
I don't know about all the infatuation and sex stuff, |
1:53:20
|
|
I tell you less and less I know about what all that means. |
1:53:23
|
|
(they laugh) |
1:53:27
|
- |
It's just another way to connect. |
1:53:29
|
- |
It doesn't seem to be focused on the right people. |
1:53:31
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:53:35
|
|
People fall in love with strangers in a Publix line |
1:53:36
|
|
and then the person that they love |
1:53:40
|
|
more than anybody in the world, they can't make love with. |
1:53:42
|
|
That happens so much. |
1:53:48
|
|
(she laughs) |
1:53:53
|
- |
Here's a letter Jane wrote to the IRS. |
1:53:59
|
- |
About not paying taxes? |
1:54:07
|
- |
Probably, 'cause Barbara didn't pay taxes. |
1:54:10
|
|
And I wouldn't have imagined Jane did either. |
1:54:13
|
|
But the IRS would just take money out of her account. |
1:54:16
|
|
They can do that. |
1:54:20
|
|
They knew she had an income, they knew she had money |
1:54:22
|
|
and they knew she was an influential person and she would, |
1:54:25
|
|
I believe she wrote to the IRS too and said, |
1:54:29
|
|
I'm not paying taxes for this reason and this reason. |
1:54:32
|
|
So they just helped themselves. |
1:54:35
|
|
They would estimate what she owed. |
1:54:37
|
|
You wanna hear this letter? |
1:54:40
|
- |
Yeah. |
1:54:41
|
- |
It's not too long. |
1:54:42
|
|
Dear Mr. Blair, as I drink my morning coffee |
1:54:43
|
|
I consider our case. |
1:54:46
|
|
It's your job to persuade me to pay my tax. |
1:54:47
|
|
If you fail, then as you represent Uncle Sam, |
1:54:50
|
|
you take it one way or another, a simple task. |
1:54:53
|
|
Meanwhile, I can refuse to be persuaded, in which case, |
1:54:56
|
|
you do your thing or I can say, ouch, uncle, |
1:54:59
|
|
when you twist my arm and cooperate, simple for me, too. |
1:55:02
|
|
It's all simple on the surface, |
1:55:06
|
|
but it's painfully difficult just below it. |
1:55:08
|
|
For a fair man will listen to my reasons |
1:55:11
|
|
and I hope to speak to the part of you |
1:55:13
|
|
which cares for what's fair. |
1:55:15
|
|
If I show you that you are being unfair while doing your job |
1:55:17
|
|
then mighten you have to consider actually leaving your job |
1:55:21
|
|
so as to avoid doing wrong? |
1:55:24
|
|
Not just to me, but as you represent Uncle Sam |
1:55:27
|
|
in one of the offices doing wrong to millions of people |
1:55:31
|
|
on the other side of the globe, |
1:55:34
|
|
since you collect the money that pays for this war. |
1:55:35
|
|
This was written in '72. |
1:55:38
|
|
People like us who commit no crimes in person, |
1:55:41
|
|
who perhaps have never seen a person |
1:55:43
|
|
brutally assaulted for nothing, |
1:55:45
|
|
are never able to judge this war from the gut level, |
1:55:47
|
|
but we would surely do it if we for one minute |
1:55:50
|
|
were to look at and listen to a child screaming |
1:55:54
|
|
from wounds that cannot possibly be cured. |
1:55:57
|
|
This isn't merely unfair, it's criminal. |
1:56:00
|
|
What our government and Air Force are doing Indochina. |
1:56:02
|
|
Here are some pictures of the weapons |
1:56:06
|
|
our people have designed and used to cripple |
1:56:07
|
|
and torture then kill. |
1:56:09
|
|
Note the circled comment. |
1:56:11
|
|
It's my belief that most Americans are insane at this point, |
1:56:14
|
|
being unable to reconcile the contradiction |
1:56:18
|
|
between supporting a government |
1:56:20
|
|
we've been brought up to respect |
1:56:22
|
|
which has respectable laws, |
1:56:24
|
|
which is now acting in a criminal way. |
1:56:26
|
|
If we wake up to the crime, it's immediately |
1:56:29
|
|
on our conscience in a way that overwhelms us. |
1:56:31
|
|
Not just guilty feelings that we must face |
1:56:33
|
|
the fact that we can't believe in our humanity |
1:56:36
|
|
or ideas of justice when we let our government |
1:56:38
|
|
act like a law unto itself murdering people |
1:56:41
|
|
who never threatened us. |
1:56:44
|
|
The only conceivable threat is to American business abroad |
1:56:45
|
|
for we have a system which needs colonies to make |
1:56:50
|
|
the enormous profits which American corporations |
1:56:53
|
|
and government demand. |
1:56:55
|
|
Yet even now, this threat is being negotiated behind scenes |
1:56:57
|
|
with Red China and U.S.S.R. |
1:57:01
|
|
Then little Vietnam is a battlefield between bayonets. |
1:57:03
|
|
A gallant people are defending their homeland |
1:57:07
|
|
and being bombed back to the Stone Age for their efforts. |
1:57:09
|
|
Nothing more disgusting has ever been seen. |
1:57:13
|
|
Not even the extermination camps. |
1:57:16
|
|
Though this war is known by Americans to be illegal |
1:57:19
|
|
and so, the legal and so on, |
1:57:22
|
|
yet, we still support it by doing business as usual. |
1:57:26
|
|
We blot it from our minds. |
1:57:30
|
|
After all, we don't have to actually look at it. |
1:57:32
|
|
And if we don't actually look at it, |
1:57:34
|
|
we don't have to believe in it. |
1:57:36
|
|
Somehow a trick of the mind. |
1:57:38
|
|
So if we're not insane, all of us, |
1:57:40
|
|
then we're half their mentally. |
1:57:43
|
|
We're in a stupor which prevents real thought. |
1:57:45
|
|
How can we think of solutions in a stupor? |
1:57:48
|
|
Can you consider for a moment that refusing taxes |
1:57:52
|
|
is a real solution if everyone did it? |
1:57:54
|
|
This is the money which enables the government |
1:57:57
|
|
to conduct a war. |
1:57:59
|
|
It is the same sort of money which has in effect |
1:58:00
|
|
brought every person in the country, |
1:58:03
|
|
bought every person in the country |
1:58:05
|
|
that has a job that keeps him |
1:58:07
|
|
and his family living decently. |
1:58:08
|
|
Without this job and cash even for a week or a month, |
1:58:11
|
|
he begins to worry and to borrow if he can. |
1:58:14
|
|
To feel degraded in his own eyes, |
1:58:17
|
|
for he will soon have to live the way millions |
1:58:19
|
|
of second-class citizens live in this country. |
1:58:22
|
|
This is a bind and another contradiction, |
1:58:24
|
|
that the people who could most effectively stop the war |
1:58:27
|
|
by striking are the ones who work for the government. |
1:58:30
|
|
I am sorry that you are in this position. |
1:58:34
|
|
Do you understand now why people like me |
1:58:37
|
|
say the system must change? |
1:58:39
|
|
We must come to terms with our minds and souls, |
1:58:41
|
|
not with money and jobs. |
1:58:44
|
|
The rest will follow. |
1:58:45
|
|
It has to be, it has to because it's right. |
1:58:47
|
|
Millions of people like us must insist |
1:58:50
|
|
the revolutionary act necessary for Americans |
1:58:53
|
|
is to stop the war. |
1:58:56
|
|
What could be less bloody a revolution? |
1:58:58
|
|
We can do it. |
1:59:02
|
|
The sooner the better. |
1:59:03
|
|
The Air Force is now weakening the dikes of North Vietnam |
1:59:04
|
|
so that when the rains come, they'll go. |
1:59:07
|
|
Those who don't drown will starve. |
1:59:10
|
|
Jane W. Verlaine. |
1:59:13
|
- |
Wow. |
1:59:16
|
- |
Jane Watrous Verlaine, that's the W. |
1:59:17
|
- |
Yeah, these women were amazing women. |
1:59:23
|
- |
Wow. |
1:59:31
|
- |
And I guess I have read this before |
1:59:42
|
|
because here's something that I wrote |
1:59:43
|
|
that's in my handwriting right here (laughs) on this page. |
1:59:44
|
- |
The Rebecca that Quinn writes about here |
1:59:49
|
|
is not the Rebecca of Rebecca and Pelican is it? |
1:59:52
|
- |
I think it probably is. |
1:59:55
|
- |
You think it is? |
1:59:57
|
- |
Yeah, Quinn was lovers with Rebecca. |
1:59:58
|
- |
Oh. |
2:00:00
|
- |
At some time. |
2:00:01
|
- |
They're from the same part of the country I guess. |
2:00:02
|
- |
Yeah. |
2:00:03
|
- |
Oh, my. |
2:00:04
|
|
Oh, my. |
2:00:07
|
- |
I made a correction, I made a correction here |
2:00:12
|
|
at some time. |
2:00:14
|
- |
Oh, what did it say? |
2:00:15
|
- |
It was about the Mariel Boatlift and it said, |
2:00:16
|
|
the dates must have been wrong in here |
2:00:20
|
|
and I said the Mariel Boatlift took place form April 1980 |
2:00:21
|
|
to October 1980. |
2:00:25
|
|
Oh, I see. |
2:00:28
|
|
This date here undated probably, |
2:00:29
|
|
probably 1979 question mark. |
2:00:33
|
|
Yeah, it was not, it was later than that. |
2:00:40
|
|
Had to have been 'cause this was a piece |
2:00:42
|
|
she wrote about the Mariel Boatlift. |
2:00:45
|
|
Oh, I love all this stuff. |
2:00:50
|
- |
So Quinn walked across the country? |
2:00:53
|
|
I didn't know that. |
2:00:56
|
- |
And Quinn didn't live on the land. |
2:01:10
|
|
She just visited. |
2:01:13
|
- |
What wonderful things. |
2:01:21
|
|
Are any of these, these are great books. |
2:01:22
|
- |
I know, they are. |
2:01:25
|
- |
Wow. |
2:01:27
|
- |
And the only place that I, that I'm quite certain |
2:01:35
|
|
that these are is the Lesbian Herstory Archives. |
2:01:39
|
|
Although, they might be other places, as well. |
2:01:41
|
- |
They need to be published. |
2:01:46
|
|
It's easy to publish. |
2:01:51
|
- |
Self-publish. |
2:01:53
|
- |
That would be up to Quinn. |
2:01:54
|
|
(she laughs) |
2:01:56
|
- |
Yeah. |
2:01:57
|
- |
Maybe, she considers them published. |
2:01:58
|
- |
You could, |
2:02:00
|
- |
Do we need |
|
|
Quinn's permission to quote these? |
2:02:01
|
- |
You could just order by one at a time. |
2:02:03
|
- |
Do I think you need her permission? |
2:02:04
|
- |
To quote from the oral histories? |
2:02:06
|
- |
You know, I don't think you do. |
2:02:10
|
|
That's my opinion that you don't, but. |
2:02:12
|
- |
Do you know how to get in touch with her? |
2:02:16
|
|
Or how to spell her last name? |
2:02:20
|
|
'Cause I don't. |
2:02:21
|
- |
D-I-L-K-E-S. |
2:02:22
|
- |
Okay. |
2:02:25
|
- |
And I did get in touch with her when Martin Duberman |
2:02:27
|
|
was looking for some stuff and I gave him her email address |
2:02:33
|
|
but I don't think I have it any more. |
2:02:39
|
|
But, where I got it was from Pelly and Rebecca. |
2:02:42
|
- |
Oh, well I'll ask them. |
2:02:47
|
|
There's one person named Quinn Dilkes |
2:02:52
|
|
in the U.S. White Pages. |
2:02:55
|
|
According to this search. |
2:02:58
|
- |
And is that an Iowa city? |
2:02:59
|
- |
I don't know, let me see. |
2:03:00
|
|
No, that's right they want me to pay. |
2:03:02
|
|
Yep in Iowa. |
2:03:04
|
- |
The Dilkes family. |
2:03:07
|
- |
There's one in Georgia, too. |
2:03:13
|
|
Oh, it says it's male. |
2:03:18
|
- |
What do they know. |
2:03:22
|
|
(she laughs) |
2:03:23
|
- |
East Washington Street, Iowa City. |
2:03:26
|
|
It doesn't give the email address. |
2:03:31
|
|
It says it's going to, but then it doesn't. |
2:03:33
|
|
I'll ask, Pelican and Rebecca. |
2:03:35
|
|
Rebecca's not doing well according to the last-- |
2:03:38
|
- |
Yeah, I saw she's had to have more surgery |
2:03:41
|
|
and gonna be facedown for another period of time. |
2:03:44
|
|
I've met Pelican, but I've never met Rebecca. |
2:03:51
|
- |
I have Pelican's, here it is. |
2:03:56
|
- |
Ruth Dreamdigger focused on the changes |
2:05:03
|
|
our society needs to make it so that abortion |
2:05:05
|
|
will no longer be a necessary option. |
2:05:09
|
|
I especially like this flyer, |
2:05:13
|
|
because it seems to reconcile the all together |
2:05:15
|
|
valid concerns of women on both sides of the abortion issue. |
2:05:17
|
- |
And what were those changes that she saw |
2:05:25
|
|
needed to be made? |
2:05:28
|
- |
I don't know. |
2:05:30
|
|
Maybe it was more birth control or fewer women fucking men. |
2:05:31
|
|
I don't know. |
2:05:39
|
|
It doesn't have it here. |
2:05:42
|
|
Blue says her visit with Sally was blissful, |
2:05:48
|
|
so much so that Sally is now going to try |
2:05:51
|
|
living in Sugarloaf for awhile. |
2:05:54
|
|
(she laughs) |
2:05:57
|
|
Yeah, oh God. |
2:06:00
|
- |
Is that the oral history you're taking that from? |
2:06:03
|
- |
I don't know what this is. |
2:06:05
|
|
This is letters, |
2:06:07
|
- |
I don't think so it's not-- |
|
- |
that Quinn wrote to Rebecca |
2:06:09
|
|
as she went walking around the country. |
2:06:11
|
- |
Oh. |
2:06:14
|
- |
Very interesting. |
2:06:15
|
|
It's fantastic. |
2:06:16
|
|
You know, it's just fantastic. |
2:06:18
|
|
It's way better than most books anywhere. |
2:06:21
|
- |
I know there's, you know |
2:06:24
|
|
there's a lot of really amazing stuff here. |
2:06:25
|
- |
I mean every paragraph is full of insights |
2:06:29
|
|
and descriptions and political depth and, ah. |
2:06:32
|
- |
You know Sinister Wisdom just republished |
2:06:40
|
|
"Crime Against Nature" which is Minnie Bruce Pratt's |
2:06:41
|
|
collection from, I guess the 80s, about losing her children. |
2:06:45
|
|
And they've got a deal with this poetry publisher |
2:06:49
|
|
here that an issue of Sinister Wisdom is, |
2:06:51
|
|
I don't know if it has to be a republished edition, |
2:06:55
|
|
but I wonder if they'd be interested in publishing |
2:06:57
|
|
Jane Verlaine's poetry, unpublished, |
2:07:00
|
|
but it's been collected. |
2:07:03
|
- |
Well you know if you self-publish, |
2:07:06
|
|
you just have to pay for like five bucks. |
2:07:10
|
- |
Yeah, but nobody's ever gonna see it unless, |
2:07:13
|
|
you know, it might as well be sitting here. |
2:07:15
|
|
It just looks prettier. |
2:07:17
|
- |
It's where you advertise. |
2:07:18
|
- |
You have to advertise it and it's a pain in the butt |
2:07:19
|
|
if you're gonna list it with Amazon you've gotta go |
2:07:21
|
|
and even then, you got, it's a big deal to publish anything. |
2:07:23
|
|
I had a friend who was trying to do this |
2:07:28
|
|
with some philosophical information |
2:07:30
|
|
and he had a group that were going after it |
2:07:32
|
|
you know really big time. |
2:07:34
|
|
And he was a tech writer with Lifeskills |
2:07:35
|
|
but it was very discouraging. |
2:07:37
|
|
You know, you don't get your money back basically. |
2:07:40
|
|
You know it's sort of like having a video go viral. |
2:07:44
|
|
That just happens but you know, |
2:07:48
|
|
most videos that get posted do not go viral. |
2:07:51
|
|
Most self-published books do not earn back |
2:07:54
|
|
the money it cost. |
2:07:56
|
|
Especially, poetry. |
2:07:59
|
- |
Jane has this one epic poem here called a "Paean of Hate" |
2:08:06
|
|
and she recorded this at one point. |
2:08:09
|
|
I've listened to it recorded and I've heard her read it too. |
2:08:13
|
- |
Where did she record it? |
2:08:18
|
|
Just personally, a personal recording? |
2:08:19
|
- |
Yeah, it was on a tape. |
2:08:21
|
|
Yeah, it's really angry. |
2:08:24
|
|
It's a really angry piece. |
2:08:27
|
|
Barbara loved it. |
2:08:30
|
|
See they were, |
2:08:37
|
|
they really complimented each other in some ways. |
2:08:38
|
- |
Barbara wouldn't let herself get angry like that herself, |
2:08:40
|
|
but if she could enjoy somebody else. |
2:08:43
|
|
(she laughs) |
2:08:46
|
- |
Yeah, in the "Paean of Hate" |
2:08:56
|
|
it talks about dirty, rotten guys. |
2:08:58
|
|
Oh, and so she's calling this published. |
2:09:05
|
|
Maybe it's in another book or maybe she's considering this |
2:09:09
|
|
being published because she says, |
2:09:12
|
|
she's talking about the Paean of Hate, it's a comment |
2:09:15
|
|
and she says the main reason I publish it now |
2:09:18
|
|
is because I practically promised Bobbie I'd do it. |
2:09:23
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I did indeed promise her to get my poetry together |
2:09:26
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and publish it even if I had to do it myself, |
2:09:29
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which I'd assumed I'd have to. |
2:09:31
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Well, let me just do a little quick search |
2:09:36
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and see if it comes up anything. |
2:09:37
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Would she have published it as Jane Verlaine? |
2:09:39
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She has published something as Jane Gapen |
2:09:43
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and something as Jane Verlaine, so it could be either one. |
2:09:46
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It could be either way. |
2:09:49
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One of her-- |
2:09:50
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Paul Verlaine is what comes up. |
2:09:51
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That's her son. |
2:09:54
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He's also a French poet. |
2:09:55
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A what? |
2:09:57
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A 19th Century French poet, dearie. |
2:09:58
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Academic tome. |
2:10:00
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Paul Verlaine? |
2:10:01
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She has a son named Paul Verlaine, too? |
2:10:03
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I'm pretty sure that's his name. |
2:10:04
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He's a photographer. |
2:10:06
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He lives in California. |
2:10:09
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It's not popping up. |
2:10:18
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Jane Gaben, G-A-B-E-N. |
2:10:19
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Jean Gaben is a French actor. |
2:10:29
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(she laughs) |
2:10:32
|
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Now Martin Duberman when he wrote about Jane in his book |
2:10:35
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he called her Jane Gapen and he asked me about her name. |
2:10:39
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And I told him about the lesbian mother thing |
2:10:43
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that makes it hard for a lot of lesbians to chose |
2:10:48
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what name they're going to keep after they divorce. |
2:10:51
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But he decided to go with Jane Gapen |
2:10:55
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because she had published under that name. |
2:10:58
|
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I wonder if it's a B instead of a P. |
2:11:02
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G-A-P-E-N. |
2:11:04
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She published a book. |
|
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G-A-P-E-N, uh-huh. |
2:11:05
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I think her book is on the bookshelf in the porch bedroom. |
2:11:11
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I get hits on G-A-P. |
2:11:18
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"Something Not Yet Ended", it looks like she, whoops. |
2:11:22
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Published by Pagoda. |
2:11:28
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(she laughs) |
2:11:30
|
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Pagoda published one Barbara's books, too. |
2:11:32
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Maybe more. |
2:11:34
|
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They're selling it for $8 at ABE you know the bookhouse. |
2:11:35
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Hm, I might have to get that. |
2:11:42
|
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I can give you a copy if you want it. |
2:11:44
|
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Awesome. |
2:11:46
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There's some boxes in my attic. |
2:11:47
|
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Oh, well yeah. |
2:11:49
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I'd love to have it. |
2:11:51
|
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I can also give you, |
2:11:55
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"Remembering Who We Are", Barbara's book. |
2:11:57
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Oh, yeah, I'd love to have that too. |
2:12:03
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You know there were a few boxes of books in my attic |
2:12:05
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that were Barbara's books and I have sent out copies to many |
2:12:09
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women on the land guide list. |
2:12:13
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And I just offered them, whoever wanted them got them. |
2:12:16
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But I don't think I have any more |
2:12:21
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except just a few copies around the property |
2:12:24
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of "We Cannot Live Without Our Lives". |
2:12:27
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That was one of the ones that I didn't mail to anyone. |
2:12:37
|
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It's "Something Not Yet Ended" comes up a lot of places. |
2:12:45
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A lot of used book have it. |
2:12:48
|
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Is that right? |
2:12:50
|
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Uh-huh, this is on ABE books, I think it is |
2:12:51
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and I'm just looking to see which books so that, |
2:12:54
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oh, you were gonna give me that one, though. |
2:12:57
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So I don't have to look for that one. |
2:12:59
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But anyway it's purchasable. |
2:13:00
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But you know what's not purchasable |
2:13:03
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is that book of Barbara's that has-- |
2:13:04
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That one. |
2:13:09
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No, this one I've got. |
2:13:10
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No, the one that, this excerpts a lot of books, |
2:13:11
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the book about the movies, about the 40s movies. |
2:13:14
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I was gonna get that one. |
2:13:16
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Oh, yeah, that's called. |
2:13:17
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"Running Away From Myself"? |
2:13:20
|
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Yeah. |
2:13:21
|
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Yeah, I think that's gone. |
2:13:25
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Oh, wait a minute. |
2:13:27
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It's about how-- |
2:13:29
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Yeah, about the movies and how the portray. |
2:13:30
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How they portrayed women. |
2:13:34
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And how women were influenced |
2:13:36
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by how they were portrayed in the movies. |
2:13:37
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And this is so way before the Women's Movement. |
2:13:40
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As far as feminist criticism And the gender criticism. |
2:13:43
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She doesn't really use the language |
2:13:47
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that people began to use with the Women's Movement, |
2:13:52
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but she's looking at the patterns. |
2:13:56
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You know she sees that. |
2:13:58
|
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What's it called Dreaming Myself or something like that? |
2:14:01
|
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This says "Running Away From Myself". |
2:14:02
|
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"Running Away From Myself", uh-huh. |
2:14:04
|
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It was originally called something else. |
2:14:07
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Okay, in 1950 she called it "A Long Way From Home", |
2:14:10
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Some Film Nightmares of the 40s, |
2:14:16
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but she couldn't get anybody to publish except City Lights |
2:14:17
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and they went out of business |
2:14:20
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before (laughs) they got it published. |
2:14:21
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So then, she found a publisher for it in 1969 |
2:14:23
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and at that time she called it "Running Away From Myself". |
2:14:27
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And that's the one when I tried to buy it, |
2:14:31
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it was very expensive and then very rare. |
2:14:35
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It's hard to, let me see what it says. |
2:14:38
|
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I think I have a copy of it. |
2:14:44
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It's more a pamphlet than a book. |
2:14:46
|
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Oh, really? |
2:14:48
|
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As I recall. |
2:14:50
|
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A lot of her books come up under, |
2:15:01
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I did a search under Barbara Deming. |
2:15:04
|
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You know what's wonderful is if you search under |
2:15:07
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Barbara Deming you can find quotes by Barbara Deming |
2:15:11
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and it's wonderful quotes. |
2:15:13
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I don't know who put them together, but. |
2:15:18
|
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Oh, a book of her poems, "I Change, I Change". |
2:15:37
|
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One advantage of self-publishing |
2:16:11
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is just to have it available so somebody could find it |
2:16:13
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if they were looking for it. |
2:16:16
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Even if 10 people have it. |
2:16:19
|
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But self-publishing doesn't mean people can find it. |
2:16:21
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For them to find it you have to have it posted somehow |
2:16:24
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on a site where people look. |
2:16:27
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Either on your own website, and even then, |
2:16:29
|
|
it may not be searched or else some, |
2:16:31
|
|
like ABE Books or another-- |
2:16:33
|
- |
I mean can you do it through Amazon and they'll post it? |
2:16:35
|
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Yeah, but it's a lot of work. |
2:16:39
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|
It's almost like, it's not like, |
2:16:41
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|
not as hard as to file a 501c3 status, |
2:16:42
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but there's a lot of paperwork to do with listing your book. |
2:16:45
|
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With Amazon you gotta be able to, |
2:16:48
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|
you gotta be able to sell it, |
2:16:50
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which means you have to have some kind of an account |
2:16:51
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|
which can take PayPal or something. |
2:16:54
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I have never tried to do this and I know people who do it, |
2:16:57
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but they're very serious about selling their books. |
2:17:00
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You know they go to a lot of trouble. |
2:17:04
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The distributing of it is almost as much work |
2:17:06
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as writing the book. |
2:17:09
|
|
You know maintaining, because Amazon |
2:17:10
|
|
will not keep it up there unless you maintain |
2:17:11
|
|
certain records and you know, it's just. |
2:17:14
|
- |
There are advantages to having a literary agent. |
2:17:19
|
|
Definitely. |
2:17:22
|
- |
Here's a copy of "Running Away From Myself" for $14. |
2:17:24
|
|
That didn't turn up before and one for $17. |
2:17:29
|
|
The last time I looked it was like 400, |
2:17:32
|
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well here's one for $277. |
2:17:35
|
- |
Some of them might be signed, too |
2:17:37
|
|
and that makes a big difference. |
2:17:39
|
- |
This is a first edition, signed, yeah. |
2:17:42
|
- |
I know someone who visited here last year |
2:17:46
|
|
or the year before was noticing some of our books |
2:17:49
|
|
and she really wanted me to set up an Amazon account |
2:17:55
|
|
and to sell some of our first editions |
2:17:57
|
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and signed books, but I don't think we need to do it. |
2:17:59
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|
I think they're treasures for us to have, you know. |
2:18:06
|
- |
And they might be worth more later. |
2:18:09
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|
I mean as far as the treasure goes it might be that-- |
2:18:11
|
- |
It's fantastic to have them available for visitors here. |
2:18:14
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|
It's just fantastic. |
2:18:18
|
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Yes, it is. |
|
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I mean that's one of the functions that are and it. |
2:18:20
|