Affidavits from women of Barry Farms Public Housing, Washington, DC re: cohabitation with men, WYSO (Antioch College Public Radio) news report on desegregation in Yellow Springs, OH

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	Larry Rubin: Mrs. Lulu Raff of 203 N. Street SW, Apt. 318.	0:00
	Lulu Raff: well, you see, he hasn’t worked, and when he doesn’t work, I don’t get any money, and I’m not able to work. And, now last month I received $40. He’s under court order to pay these payments, but like the court said, if the man hasn’t got work there isn’t anything they can do. Now I was told by the courts to go to the welfare apartment, but they do not help able-bodied men to work—that can work. They do not help you. Now, the point is, what is the woman supposed to do when she’s got her responsibilities in the home, her rent, a child to feed, a child to keep in school, she has no one to turn to for help. The salvation army is at the point, now, that they do not help the people. When they got an able-bodied man—they are not an operation like the welfare department. They think you should go to work. And then, a child has to be said, has got to be clothed. Where is the woman to get this?
	Larry Rubin: Excuse me.
	Lulu Raff: What’s going to happen to her?
	Larry Rubin: well, what, what did the welfare department tell you down there?
	Lulu Raff: well, when you get to the welfare department, if the man is able to work, the man, they tell you, just have to go to work and get a job. But, sometimes people just can’t get these jobs they tell you to go and get, and then that means that, when you don’t have no food for a child, you’ve got to get the food somewhere. And it just makes a lot of people go out and do things they don’t want to do in life. I mean, people want to live a clean life. They don’t want to do anything wrong, but, that, you still know that a child has to be fed; you’ve got to get the food from somewhere.
	Larry Rubin: where, where is your husband now?
	Lulu Raff: I have to live in Maryland. He lives with his mother. He and his mother has an apartment together. And he has to help to support his mother, but her family helps too.
	Larry Rubin: was he helping to support you?
	Lulu Raff: yes, he’s supp—he’s under court order to give me $25 a week, which the welfare department says should be adequate funds for me to live on.
	Larry Rubin: $25 a week?
	Lulu Raff: and I have to pay my rent out of it. I have to buy food. I have to buy clothes. I have to pay the insurance. And I had to buy things for my home. I have to pay for my son’s haircut out of it every time he needs a haircut. And there are times when a child does one piece of candy, once in a while. And I have to try to make it on that. Now, I had tried for six months to get help from the welfare department at one time, and it took six months for them to come to my aid.
	Larry Rubin: I see.
	Lulu Raff: and by the time they came to my aid, why, I was in such a mental condition that I was placed under psychiatry.
	Larry Rubin: Well how much—you, you say that your husband is under…	2:45
	Lulu Raff: A court order.
	Larry Rubin: yes.
	Lulu Ruff: To pay me $25 a week. Just like the man said, the man hasn’t got a job. There’s nothing the courts can do about this matter. They tell me to go back to the welfare department, but the welfare department will not help an able-bodied man when you go there. You cannot get your help.
	Larry Rubin: and how much do you pay for rent?
	Lulu Raff: I’m paying 33 a month at National Capital Housing. Now…
	Larry Rubin: how much would you say your food budget is?
	Lulu Raff: well, I have to live on less—sometimes around 7 to 8 dollars a week in order to try to budget for clothes and other things that we are in need of. Now, the best part of my food, when I have to eat, is the[unsure: (0:03:34).
	Larry Rubin: Do, do, do you live with your…	3:34
	Lulu Raff: I just live with my boy and myself at Capital Housing. We have been there since 1959, and the place in my name, not Mr. [Raff?]. We are not—we were legally separated when I got the place, and the place is in my name.
	Larry Rubin: I see. And, well what other, what other expenses do you have?
	Lulu Raff: well, I have insurance, which I have to pay of $3.16 a month. And I have to buy clothes, and I have to keep my boy in clothes, and I have to pay for his haircuts, and other things that I need at home like electric bolds, you have to have a broom once in a while to sweep. There are things that you are in need of bodily that a woman should have that you can’t get sometimes, because you haven’t got the money, there are things you just can’t get. And if I was—I had been to rehabilitation to try to get help, and I can’t even get a job through them. Each place I go, they refer me back to DC General for further medical care.
	Larry Rubin: tell me, how do you get along on $25 a week? (0:04:38)
	Lulu Raff: I have to get along the best way I can. There is some times we do with [unsure (0:04:40)]. There sometimes [unsure: (0:04:43)] times to the next check. We just have some beans in the house. We cooked beans. I make biscuits and that is it. We just do with that. We don’t—sometimes that—my boy, they’re giving him now a free lunch at school, but as far as I’m concerned, I have corned beef for breakfast, and if he leaves anything on the plate that’s what I get left.	4:38
	Larry Rubin: how, how old is your boy?
	Lulu Raff: my boy is eight.
	Larry Rubin: I see.
	Lulu Raff: I am a [unsure: unsure: (0:05:07)] I’m supposed to have certain foods, but I cannot get them because, if I do not have the money to buy these foods, and I have to eat several of the starchy foods we have, which is mostly all starch: beans, cheese, which I do appreciate, but which is not good for the body, as I know a young girl who’s five months pregnant, and who has lost her baby because she could not get the proper foods that she was in need of when she seeking out through the welfare office.
	Larry Rubin: And…
	Lulu Raff: this record is a DC General hospitalist for a young girl today, she lost her five months pregnant…baby.
	Larry Rubin: Well do you, do your neighbors help you?
	Lulu Raff: yes, my neighbors have had to come to my aid several times. Elaine—Mrs. Branch and Mrs. Woods have brought us food, and the social worker, the South West Community House, there’s times when they have come to my aid. They have given the help. If it wasn’t for Christmas in between these times during the winter months people giving, I guess we just wouldn’t have any food, no clothes. There has been times, at the end of the year in’63 I had to take my boy out of school because I couldn’t get the help that I was in need of. We had take, take my school.
	Larry Rubin: I see. And, when was the last time you got a check from your husband.
	Lulu Raff: last time I got a check, let’s see, it was last week I think it was. A week, a week or so ago it was. I forget the date. It was $15. And I received $40 for the whole month of last month. This month, so far, I’ve received no help whatsoever. I have now got, I think, $.42 to my name.
	Larry Rubin: have you appeal to your husband, have you talked to your husband?
	Lulu Raff: I have talked with him but that does no good. Mr. Blandford, his probation officer, has talked with him, it has done everything he can. But, just like Mr. Blandford said, the man’s unemployed. The man is trying to get work because he has to make reports to the court. The court knows he’s trying to get work. But if the man hasn’t gotten work, he can’t get it.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Did you talk to the welfare department about this.
	Lulu Raff: well, there is no need to go to the welfare department about this and waste your time with the welfare department in cases like this when they won’t help you. There is no use you spending your carfare running down sit there all day, when they won’t help a case like this.
	Larry Rubin: how much do you think do you think you could live on in a week and be comfortable?
	Lulu Raff: $35 with what low rent I’ve got.
	Larry Rubin: you would say $35 a week?
	Lulu Raff: I can make it beautifully. Yes, with me and my boy, because I do not care about high costs clothing.
	Larry Rubin: I see.
	Lulu Raff: A clean dress, hat and a dress for $2.98 would do be well as anybody with $15 dress.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Thank you very much.
	[tape changes]
	Larry Rubin: Mrs. Dennis.	7:47
	Mrs. Dennis: I’m trying to get help thro—on the welfare before, and main thing that they said, that as long as my husband is with me I cannot get any help from the welfare because he is able to work. And one time when he was sick with pneumonia as when I tried to get help and they told me I couldn’t get the help at the time because I was out there seeking emergency help.
	Larry Rubin: now, Mrs. Dennis, you—you said that you did apply for welfare?
	Mrs. Dennis: yes, I applied when my twins weren’t nothing but babies, and the welfare told me then—my husband is sick at the time—and they told me, well how long will he be sick? I said, well my husband supposed to down with pneumonia. I said, Dr. sent him home to me. I said, I’m supposed to be taking care of him and my babies right now. I said, I can’t do it all and go to work too. They told me that they would check through it. They said, well how long is he supposed to be help…[baby wines] shhh..supposed to be in help only—they said it, it would be about three weeks for me to keep them in bed. [to child] I don’t have any candy now will you hush. They told me that I would have to, you know that they would send 70 out to the house. I said, what about emergency help. I said, I would have to have emergency help right now. I said, because I didn’t even have milk, milk in the house for the babies. They told me, well they’ll send somebody out, that they don’t give emergency help. They are at the welfare. So, I left. I said, well that’s my main concern. I said, is to try to get some help right now until I could see what I can do. And they told me to go back to the Salvation Army. Well I went down to the Salvation Army, and they said, well, that they had helped me before. They said, that I had married out of my race and it was my concern to do what I could. They said if I hadn’t done—if I hadn’t married out of my race, they said, that I would’ve been in better shape and wouldn’t be going through and going through now.
	Larry Rubin: tell me, have you ever, have you ever considered separating from your husband?	10:14
	Mrs. Dennis: yes, I have.
	Larry Rubin: could you repeat, ‘that I have considered sep…
	Mrs. Dennis: yes, I have considered separating from my husband two times. One back here last year. My husband wasn’t working at all, and I had to go out and work 12 hours straight through at night doing waitress work, and I come home and have to be at home all through the day trying to help out with the babies. Sometimes I would get the one or two hours of sleep with my husband without trying to find work and couldn’t find work because it was so cold. My husband does construction work and the just as in any work to do in the wintertime. Sometimes my husband works on-- I’d count the days up, sometimes my husband wouldn’t work one full month out of four months.
	Larry Rubin: and what was the other time he considered?
	Mrs. Dennis: well, that was another winter when I me—when I first gave birth to the babies. I said, well, I said, I ought to take and put the babies out in foster homes, I saying, and just go on on my own. I said, because the way it look like, I can’t—we were just not to be able to make it together, and, my husband said that he was trying to do what he could, trying to do what he could. We were living in one room with the two babies, and that wasn’t, that wasn’t good for the health. The babies was sick all the time. I had to keep running back and forth to the doctor. I had to go to the doctor myself. I was supposed to have an operation on my leg. I wouldn’t take it. Now the doctor say I’m having trouble with my kidneys. They don’t want me to work. And yet, the way I’ve been working every winter until this winter trying to support bills. My husband went down to sign up for unemployment Social Security, and they told him he was only going to draw $16 a week. In last year all he drew is $12 a week. And they tell me I can’t put him in for babysitter because he has to be free for a job if a job comes through.
	Larry Rubin: and when did you—why did you did you think of separating from him?
	Mrs. Dennis: I thought maybe if I left my husband and put my babies in a home and went to work, that maybe I could get some help.
	Larry Rubin: Did you ever consider separating to get on welfare?
	Mrs. Dennis: at one time I did, but they would—I figured it out that it wouldn’t really pay because my babies needed their own mother and their own mother love.
	Larry Rubin: and that site is separate?
	Mrs. Dennis: that’s why we didn’t separate. We try to make it the best way we could living in one room. Now we have an apartment running $90 a month. And I said, how in the world—if my husband went on trying to get a check—how in the world can we make it off of $90 a month, which would run $45 every two weeks, off of $16 check? And I’m not supposed to work.	12:46
	Larry Rubin: you say you pay $90 a month?
	Mrs. Dennis: $90 a month rent is what we pay.
	Larry Rubin: and how much…
	Mrs. Dennis: and it takes us at least $15 a week in food sometimes more.
	Larry Rubin: I see, and how about four clothes?
	Mrs. Dennis: except for when we go and eat beans. I have twin babies, so you can imagine what clothes runs for twins.
	Larry Rubin: I see. How much would that be?
	Mrs. Dennis: well, every time I buy shoes it runs me 6-to-$10 because their shoes runs from $4 to $5 a pair, to get a pair shoes that is decent on their foot. And, even then, a decent shoe you cannot get it for a child right around 4 or $5 a pair.
	Larry Rubin: And how much wo…
	Mrs. Dennis: and every time I buy a dress, I have to buy two dresses. Panties, I got a buy two sets. Pajamas, I got a buy two sets. Anything I buy, I got a buy two of because I have identical twins and I’m not to see them dress different.
	Larry Rubin: and how much does your husband make, in the past several months?
	Mrs. Dennis: Well, my husband brought home—last week he worked one day, which he brought in $17. This week he worked two days. He brought in 20-sum dollars for the two days altogether after everything was taken out. They took out six dollars: US employment tax. Every time—all his tax was taken out—he had $10 taken out of a $44 check.
	Larry Rubin: And has he tried to find work?
	Mrs. Dennis: Yes, my husband has been going to the—down to the local 74. Every morning he goes down there around 6 o’clock in the morning plus he has been to the US employment office for work. And we go through this every winter. And even in the summer sometimes there’s times when they say they don’t have work for them to do in the summertime.
	Larry Rubin: Have you tried other places?
	Mrs. Dennis: Yes, he has.	15:08
	Larry Rubin: what other the places?
	Mrs. Dennis: my husband has done work for trash companies and everything. He is even in private trash work before he got into the union, and he has tried for dishwashing jobs, Porter jobs that he’s been in the union in the wintertime, trying to find work. But, as last year, there wasn’t any work at all to be found. This year, he’s just trying to push and pull the best way we know how. Were behind in our rent now. We owe over $180 rent right now.
	Larry Rubin: I see, and…
	Mrs. Dennis: Every winter I have to drop insurance. I don’t have insurance on my babies right now.
	Larry Rubin: I see. How much—so you owe—well, what happens…
	Mrs. Dennis: the way it look, if my husband isn’t able to have any good jobs within the next two weeks—if he can work straight through for the next two or three weeks, we will have part of the rent. But if my husband don’t work, then it looks like will be put out by next month.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Well, thank you very much.
	[tape change]	16:20
	Larry Rubin: Mrs. Rachel Lawrence of 1220 Stevens Road, SE. Okay, just a question—yeah, I know, well, when we [unsure: (0:16:40)] Okay. How long have you been on welfare?
	Rachel Lawrence: May the 10th, 1963. And I was cut off August, the last of August until the first of—now, I got a check on the, I don’t know, some time in October. [inaudible: (0:17:17)] investigators?
	Larry Rubin: Just say anything you want.
	Rachel Lawrence: the investigators, they come into your house at all hours of the morning. They came into my house at 2 o’clock in the morning, then they also came in at 5:30 on Sunday morning: two at the back, two at the front. They go all through your drawers, closets, and the bathroom. They look everyplace, and plus, when you got teenage daughters in the house, the investigators have no business coming into your house early in the morning like that.	17:23
	Larry Rubin: why do these investigators come?
	Rachel Lawrence: when they come, they come two at a time. They had never showed me no credential until they last time they came in. They came to my house on a Thursday night. It was one white guy in a colored guy. The colored guy should be his identification. The white guy, he did not show no identification.
	Larry Rubin: we’ll suppose you try to keep them out, what happens?
	Rachel Lawrence: well, if you try to keep them out, the cut you off public assistance.
	Larry Rubin: well, what are they looking for? Why are they there?
	Rachel Lawrence: I don’t know. Once when they came to my house on August 4 at 5:30 in the morning they ran upstairs and when they got through looking around they had asked me where was the man. So, I told them there’s five men upstairs. So, this old guy, he laughed, said ‘haha 5 men, you are talking about your sons.’ I said, well that’s who you are looking for.
	Larry Rubin: They are looking for men?
	Rachel Lawrence: that’s a they said they’re looking for, man, ‘Where’s the man?’ I told them I had five men living in the house.
	Larry Rubin: Well, what are they looking for the men for? Why are they looking for men?
	Rachel Lawrence: I know, they didn’t give no reason. All they said, they—when, when he came back down stairs, he said ‘where is the man.’ I said there’s five up there. And, so, he smiled and he said, ‘those your sons.’ I said, well that’s who you’re looking for.
	Larry Rubin: why would they go to anybody’s house look for men?
	Rachel Lawrence: I don’t know. I really don’t know the reason. They had got me so nervous I called the head, up to the office to talk to someone over them, and they told me to just open the door whenever they come in and let them go on through, said eventually they’ll get tired. Now, in different one’s houses they’ve been in, they’ve gone through people’s trash cans, and one lady was in the bathroom when they went there. They waited until she was out of the bathroom.	19:16
	Larry Rubin: what ha—what happens if you try to keep them out. Have you ever tried to keep them out?
	Rachel Lawrence: no I have never try to keep them out. They came to my house on Wednesday night, right after I came home from the hospital from an operation. My daughter told them I wasn’t at home. Said, alright, they asked where was she gone? They told him to the—I’d gone to the hospital, alright? Seem like we are on public assistance, if you leave home and the investigators come you’ve got to leave where you’re going and so they can go and check on you. I mean, they’ll go to different neighbors’ houses. If you’re at a neighbor’s house, they go to a neighbor house. One—on a Thursday night, they came to my house. Then they went to my daughter’s children’s fathers house and told—asked the mother a whole bunch of lies, questioning her about me. But, see the investigators, they have no business going from [Barry’s Farms?], [Stanton?] Church asking about anything because those people at [Stanton] church don’t know me.
	Larry Rubin: Well let me ask you again, now, why—what if they find a man, what happens?
	Rachel Lawrence: Well, just like, for instance, if Larry is in my house, yes to show identification, who he is, his address. If you don’t show it, you’re automatically off. I’ve had a girlfriend in my house, they came into my home, asked my girlfriend ‘where do you work, where do you live, who’s your boss.’ What you have is no privacy whatsoever.
	Larry Rubin: you said this does interfere with your private life.	21:24
	Rachel Lawrence: they do. You, you have no private life on public assistance.
	Larry Rubin: Are women afraid to have friends come in the house?
	Rachel Lawrence: Well, in my home, I don’t allow anyone in there now because the simple reason, when they came in there, what the two guys in my house, one of the guys gave them their address, the other one was a next-door neighbor. And that’s when they cut me off. You’re not—they way it seems now, you ain’t a person.
	Larry Rubin: so, you say that this—people are afraid to have just neighbors.
	Rachel Lawrence: Yeah, they are. They are. A lot of—pra—all of my neighbors, we haven’t had no company. Not even down at the women’s [unsure: (0:22:09)].
	Larry Rubin: Why is that?
	Rachel Lawrence: Well, they’s afraid. For instance, maybe, Mr. Fricke drop by the house, alright? If he’s there when the investigators come, he’s got to give them a reason why he’s there. And that’s embarrassing, when you have company in your house and they drop in asking questions.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Do many people from Barry’s farms visit each other’s houses?
	Rachel Lawrence: Well. Well, no. Not too many. I don’t do too much visiting.
	Larry Rubin: How about your case worker?
	[telephone rings]
	Rachel Lawrence: I have no trouble with Ms. Little. But this new one, oh they say she’s pretty hard, but I know nothing about her.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Well thank you.
	Rachel Lawrence: Your welcome. Your Welcome.
	[tape changes]
	Larry Rubin: …see.	23:00
	Rachel Lawrence: They even look into your medicine kit.
	Larry Rubin: What are they looking for?
	Rachel Lawrence: I don’t know. Evidently, I guess, they are looking for razor blade, a razor, or something. But I figure it like this, when you got teenage boys in the house, they can use razors also like a man. And they also read your mail.
	[tape change]
	Larry Rubin: Mrs. Halley Patterson. If you could—you, you want to tell that story about your little girl? What, could you hold it there…you don’t, you don’t have to hold it there like that. And what, what is that...
	Halley Patterson: well, I has a little girl that I have had since she was a month old, and now she’s five, and I have never got anything from the public assistance for her. I have to just, you know, I have three children in school. And I have to just use some of what I get for the little girl I have because they have never said why or when there can ever give me anything for her.
	Larry Rubin: I see. How much do you get for public assistance?
	Halley Patterson: $162.
	Larry Rubin: A Month?
	Halley Patterson: That’s right.
	Larry Rubin: Does that cover living expenses?
	Halley Patterson: no. I pay $65 rent and then I have to go back and forth to the doctor myself because I have a nerve condition and also high blood pressure. Then I have to take these kids to the clinic.
	Larry Rubin: do they pay for the doctor’s visits?
	Halley Patterson: a doctor’s visit? I guess if I had a doctor. They always tell me to go to the clinic. I go to a doctor, if I call a doctor, most the time they tell me go to the clinic or to a doctor somewhere, the hospital.
	Larry Rubin: you say you get how much a month again?
	Halley Patterson: 162.	25:14
	Larry Rubin: and, and how much to spend for food?
	Halley Patterson: oh, for food, it cost me around 45, $50 a month.
	Larry Rubin: per month?
	Halley Patterson: Yeah. I mean that’s what, that I can’t live off, but I spend out of my check I get. But still it don’t last me a whole month. Cause, see, I have two girls in high school—one in senior high and one in junior high. Then my little boy, you know, he goes to school and he come home for lunch and everything, so I just can’t make it with that.
	Larry Rubin: What, what do you do?
	Halley Patterson: I just, if I don’t get nothing from nobody, I just do without. I have to do without until the next time my check come in. And its like, last month, December I didn’t pay any rent cause I didn’t get no slip from the welfare to go down there to the Salvation Army, I didn’t get no basket or nothing. Well I had to go get some food, and get some things for the children for Christmas, and I had to pay too much rent which run me into—the cold cost was $103. That’s what I’d had to pay. So, well then, I—most of the time I didn’t have food for the children, I just had to do without. I mean, I go to my neighbors and som—get something. You know like, sometime Ms. McDaniel may have a little something. Some time she hadn’t, well, I’d do without. Lots of times they put my kids to bed without [unsure: (0:26:48)]. This organization that, you know, Southeast House, this organization, Southeast House, they [unsure: (0:27:01)] too.
	Larry Rubin: Well, do your—how about your clothes. Does it cover your clothes?
	Halley Patterson: My clothes?	27:09
	Larry Rubin: Clothing expenses.
	Halley Patterson: Well that’s what I have. I just do with that because I didn’t have any other income.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Well, thank you.
	Halley Patterson: Okay.
	Larry Rubin: How about your husband.
	Halley Patterson: well my husband now, we’ve been separated for three years, three years. We’ve been separated…
	Larry Rubin: does he give you support?
	Halley Patterson: nothing at all. He was supposed to put money in [unsure: (0:27:39)] but he ended up carrying any down there, and they told me when they got in touch with him that they was going to call me in [Coats? (0:27:46). I mean, that was last year. I haven’t heard anything from him, yeah.
	Larry Rubin: I see, thank you. How much do you think you would need to live off of, you know, that would be a sufficient income?
	Halley Patterson: You mean for food, like food and…
	Larry Rubin: Yeah, food and clothes.
	Halley Patterson: Well, well food and clothes and everything, right together, at least. See. While I guess for food and clothes and everything, I can make it off about $90 a month. I mean its…
	Larry Rubin: and how much do you get a month?
	Halley Patterson: I don’t get but $162. See I have to pay rent out of that.
	Larry Rubin: And for food and clothes you would need $90?
	Halley Patterson: That’s right.
	Larry Rubin: And how much do you pay for rent?
	Halley Patterson: $65.
	Larry Rubin: I see.
	Halley Patterson: Cause I have me—I don’t have enough to do it. I think the doctors think that’s why I I’m upset, like my nerves—they trying to find out why I stay so upset all the time, and they want to try to find out do I get enough money for support. So, I told that I didn’t. I mean, I didn’t get enough.
	Larry Rubin: I see. Well, thank you.
	[tape change]
	Larry Rubin: Mrs. Moore. So, whe—when did you first applied for welfare, Mrs. Moore?	29:10
	Mrs. Moore: in August. Really, in July but then I went back in August. I was referred there by Social Security. I was accepted as being eligible as applicant, and I found that I waited from, say, the middle of August until the 18th of January.
	Larry Rubin: that six—seven months almost.
	Mrs. Moore: yeah. On 14th of January, roundabout, I called Mrs. Harvey. I had tried to contact Mr. [Bruer?], but was told by Mrs. Harvey that he was out of the office but that she was his assistant and wanted to know what she would aid me. I then related to her what I have just repeated about the waiting time. Mrs. Harvey assured me that she would look into it, asked me who my caseworker was, Mr. Perry. And, she called me back in about half an hour and assured me that I would get a check on the 18th. Well I did receive this check.
	Larry Rubin: now what did you do between—how were you living between August and January?
	Mrs. Moore: between August and January I was living off the Social Security of my stepfather and my granddaughter.
	Larry Rubin: and how much was that?
	Mrs. Moore: his gran—It’s $102. In my grandchild’s $46.50.
	Larry Rubin: I see, and how many people are there in your household?
	Mrs. Moore: well, there would be three of us that would use this check.
	Larry Rubin: I see.
	Mrs. Moore: in my rent at that time was—in August—was $54. I paid $54 in July, August, September, and October.
	Larry Rubin: and how much did you spend on food?
	Mrs. Moore: well, I would say approximately that we spend around, not less than $12 a week on food. That’s because I don’t have to put in staples. When we’ve got a put in staples, I spent about $15.
	Larry Rubin: did you find it was easy to get along then?
	Mrs. Moore: no, I didn’t because the insurances have to be paid.
	Larry Rubin: how much was that?
	Mrs. Moore: a four-week period run $17.05 in one insurance. And of course, my son pays that, so I, I won’t worry about that. But, I mean, it became necessary for him to pay it because I couldn’t do it.
	Larry Rubin: I see.
	Mrs. Moore: of course, I had my… [end tape]

	Radio Host: WYSO Radio News.	0:00
	Bill Miller: Well, originally, I was demonstrating to show that this is still America and that Mr. Gegner has certain inherent rights which are being violated. But, I think I must comment. The people up here who are protesting against us should be made to serve time in the service overseas where they would face a couple of communist bullets.
	[Sounds of Morse code. Orchestra music begins]
	Radio Host: WYSO News now presents a special report on the Yellow Springs barbershop controversy. Background, the latest developments, the legal implications. A tourist passing through Yellow Springs would probably find it similar to most of villages. Like other Southwestern Ohio towns, it has a tree-shaded main street and a small but neatly maintained business district. Surrounding this community of four thousand is gently rolling farmland. Yellow Springs is the home of Antioch College, noted in academic circles for its liberal arts program. Some fifteen hundred students are enrolled Antioch. The village of several local industries. They manufacture quality product, highly thought of in the competitive business world. Yellow Springs is not too much different from most American towns. It has a PTA, a League of Women Voters, and the Little League. But during the long hot summer of 1963, Yellow Springs, Ohio was catapulted into international headlines.
	The reason: a controversy over a local barber’s refusal to cut Negro hair. This town has three barbershops. Two of them serve Negro customers. The third one doesn't. And that barbershop belongs to Louis Gegner, who by now is probably the best-known barber in the United States. Gegner refuses to cut Negro hair. He claims he doesn't know how. He has held firm to his position ever since attempts to integrate his barbershop were made in 1960. When the barber refused to cut the hair of Yellow Springs Negro that year, charges of discrimination were brought against Gegner under a 1948 Village Public Accommodations Act. The barber was tried in Greene County Common Pleas Court. On August 24, 1960, WYSO listeners heard this report:	2:18
	[1960 report begins]
	Mike Schneiderman: Yellow Springs barber Louis Gegner was found guilty today by a twelve-man jury: Guilty of discriminating in his local barbershop. That verdict followed two hours of deliberation this morning in Xenia, Ohio. That trial began yesterday morning. Immediately following the reading of the verdict, Mr. Gegner's attorney, Harry Kyle of Xenia, asked the court to throw out the verdict on the grounds of insufficient evidence. Such a motion, referred to in legal jargon as a motion for judgment non obstante veredicto, if accepted could result in a new trial. judge John [Kirchhoff?] who heard the trial, is responsible for a decision on the matter.
	Radio Host: That was WYSO newsman Mike Schneiderman, August 24, 1960. Gegner never appealed the decision. He was convicted of discrimination, and judge Kirchhoff fined him $1, but Gegner has never paid it. Despite the Common Pleas Court jury verdict, Gegner persisted in his policy. He still refused to serve Negroes at his local barbershop. In 1961, Yellow Springs Negro Paul Graham charged the barber with discrimination under the new state Public Accommodations Act. An Ohio civil rights commission hearing board found the barber guilty of discrimination, and the cease-and-desist order was issued against Gegner. Gegner appealed. The case on the desk of Judge Warren C. Young of Lebanon on assignment to the Greene County Common Pleas Court for over year. Local civil rights partisans were wondering if judge on whatever reach a decision. In late April 1963 an Antioch College student civil rights group decided it could wait no longer for Judge Young’s ruling.
	They staged their first set in, aimed at integrating Gegner’s barbershop on April 27th. And that was a tense day in Yellow Springs. Fire hoses were used to clear the area near Gegner's barbershop of onlookers. A leader of the Antioch committee for racial equality was arrested and charged with conspiracy under the state Riot Act. There's been no court action on the matter. Three days later, Antioch College students once again staged a sit in at Gegner’s barbershop, but no arrests were made and the barber was forced to close early. Then, on May 3rd the long-awaited decision from Judge Young was finally handed down. Young, sitting on assignment with the Greene County Common Pleas Court, ruled in Gegner's favor. The judge struck down sections of the state Public Accommodations Act applying to barbershops. He ruled it violates a barber’s civil rights to force them to cut Negro hair if he doesn't have the necessary skills. The next day, 500 people marched through the streets of Yellow Springs to protest Judge Young’s decision. On Saturday, May 18th the Antioch College student civil rights group once again attempted to integrate Gegner’s barbershop. They staged a sit in. By the time the day was over, nineteen sit-in demonstrators and been arrested. Later, barber Lewis Gegner told what happened.	4:48
	Lewis Gegner: I asked all the students, I said, boys, I’m asking you to leave the shop or I will file charges against you.
	Radio Host: The nineteen sit-in demonstrators were charged with trespassing by the barber. On Monday, May 20th Antioch College students picketed Gegner’s barbershop. But the picketing was halted when an injunction was issued by Judge Warren C, Young. The injunction prohibiting trespassing at the barbershop, and ruled out mass demonstrations. It limited picketing in front of Gegner's barbershop to four persons at any one time. The case of the sit-in demonstrators arrested at the barbershop May 18th came up for Greene County court jury trial in late July. All but one of the sit-in demonstrators arrested Gegner's barbershop May 18th were on trial. One requested a separate trial, and that case is yet to be heard. But at 3:30am, July 24th, after nearly ten hours of deliberation, a Greene County court jury returned their verdicts for the eighteen demonstrators on trial. The decision of the seven man five woman all-white jury was summarized by County Court Judge Reynold C. Heflin.
	Judge Heflin: The jury has just returned a finding of seventeen guilty and one got the not guilt.	7:14
	Radio Host: The not-guilty verdict was returned against David M Jackson of Central State College in Wilberforce, the only Negro who participated in the sit in. Testimony during the trial indicated that Jackson was the only sit in demonstrator would actually asked for a haircut. Courtroom observers speculated that the jury had cleared Jackson for trespassing charges because he had asked for a haircut and therefore was in the barbershop on May 18th for a lawful purpose. This logic was to play an important part in the next attempt to integrate Gegner’s barbershop. An attempt was made only three days after the conclusion of the trespassing trial. This time Antioch College students weren’t involved. Yellow Springs residents took the initiative. On Saturday, July 27th five village residents, three whites and to Negroes, entered Gegner’s barbershop. Mindful of the county court jury verdict, all five requested haircuts. They said they weren't sit-in demonstrators, they just wanted haircuts. But Barbara Gegner refused to cut the hair of the Negroes, and had the entire group arrested for trespassing. The five village residents of not yet been tried, nor are they been cited for contempt for May 20th injunction, which prohibits trespassing at the barbershop. After the arrest of the five Yellow Springs residents at the barbershop, July 27th, local attempts to integrate Gegner’s business by direct action came to a standstill. Both sides began steeling themselves for the long, costly bottle in the courts. But civil rights demonstrators continue to picket the barbershop. For several months, members of the village civil rights group, Action, had picketed Gegner’s shop on Saturdays. Student demonstrators from the Antioch committee for racial equality picked up the ball on weekdays. The picketing was limited to four persons at any one time to comply with the terms of an injunction issued May 20th by Judge Warren C Young of Lebanon. Judge Young’s injunction forbid mass demonstrations at the barbershop. But following the July 27th arrest at Gegner’s barbershop, Antioch College students increased the size of their picket line. For a two-day period, the Antioch College student civil rights group placed between five and six demonstrators on the picket line in front of the barbershop. The move was apparently designed to test Judge Young’s injunction limiting barbershop picketing to four persons at any one time. The student group seemed the feel of the judge's injunction was invalid. But the judge didn't think so, and on July 31st Greene County Sheriff Russell Bradley told WYSO news that his office intended to enforce the court order.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: If we find out that the injection is being violated, we will investigate and try to obtain the necessary information at the scene of the picket line, and if we find that there is a violation, we will report the violation of the proper authorities for their action.	9:57
	Radio Host: After Sheriff Bradley said he would enforce Judge Young's injunction limiting picketing at Gegner;s barbershop, student civil rights group got cold feet. They call off their picketing. When Barbara Lewis Gegner took a four-day vacation in Wisconsin, the Antioch committee for racial equality decided there was no point in picketing a closed shop. Nights became cooler. A page was ripped off the calendar. It was now September. Examinations were now coming up at Antioch College, and the Antioch committee for racial equality was trying to figure out how it would pay the legal expenses for all the court cases it had gotten itself involved in. There were no plans for any sit-ins at Gegner’s barbershop in the works. Village civil rights groups took no action either. Picketing at Gegner’s shop nearly seized, except for token picket on Saturdays. Lewis Gegner's barbershop is no longer the target sit in demonstrations. Gone were the picket signs, the police cars, the crowd of newsmen. Gegner could once again run his business without interference, like any ordinary American businessman. Until now, all the demonstrations, those by Yellow Springs residents and Antioch College students, were against barber Lewis Gegner. They were protesting the barber's refusal to cut Negro hair. The civil rights demonstrators are supporting the principle that a man is entitled to be served in any place of public accommodation regardless of race. Barber Lewis Gegner is upholding the principle of individual property rights; that a private businessman should be allowed to choose his customers as he sees fit. The issue is drawn. The courts must decide ultimately which principle is more important, which one the American legal system will follow in years to come. But at the moment the issue was unresolved. There is support for both sides of the question, and early this month WYSO news learned that demonstrators intend to come to Yellow Springs to back barber Lewis Gegner. A high official of the National Association for the Advancement of White People disclosed that four-man contingent from his group would come here to pick it in support of the barber. The demonstration was scheduled for Saturday, September 7th. The night before, WYSO News asked William F. Miller, Executive Secretary of the National Association for the Advancement of White people, if this group really would demonstrate at Gegner’s barbershop the next day.
	Bill Miller: We intend to picket sometime tomorrow. I’m not sure of the exact time; however, we have been given permission by the authorities to come up, as long as we limited our pickets to four people.	12:41
	Radio Host: But there was a split in the ranks. The head of the Dayton chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of White People didn't want anything to do with picketing at Gegner’s barbershop. Guy Cordell, president of the Dayton chapter, told WYSO News:
	Guy Cordell: I was against the picketing of the barbershop because I don’t think that we should lower ourselves and our standards to whatever the CORE and the NAACP does. I don’t think it help us out any, trying to do the same thing they’re doing. We were trying to do it in another way. It was just somebody’s idea that they should do it. They had gone to Pennsylvania and taken care of that colored family that had moved into a white district; they was going to do something like that.
	Radio Host: At 6:00am the next morning, all quiet and Xenia Avenue, Yellow Springs Main Street. Barber Lewis Gegner is an early riser, and he was cleaning the windows of the shop, one of the showplaces in the business district. The only other people around, were the proprietor of a nearby luncheonette and three reporters in WYSO news. Tt was rumored that demonstrators in the National Association for the Advancement of White People would arrive in Yellow Springs early in the morning. They did. At 6:40am, two cars parked in front of the barbershop. Out stepped William F. Miller, executive secretary of the Cincinnati-based group, and three other members of the organization, who came from Columbus. Immediately, they formed a four-man picket line in front of Gegner's barbershop. They carried signs reading “Lewis Gegner, a real American,” “Free enterprise: an American Heritage” and “Stop the Slaughter of American Men by Fighting the Communists.” Asked for comment about the demonstrators, Lewis Gegner said, I don't have any statement to make. A Yellow Springs police car arrived on the scene five minutes after the picketers from the National Association for the Advancement of White People showed up. A few minutes later, four more members of the organization arrived. WYSO News spoke with one of them.
	WYSO News Reporter: Where are you from, sir.	14:50
	Picketer 1: Columbus
	WYSO News Reporter: Columbus. You came here today to demonstrate?
	Picketer: To Picket.
	WYSO News Reporter: To Picket. In support of Mr. Gegner?
	Picketer 1: Right. In support of Mr. Gegner.
	Radio Host: But the executive secretary of the National Association for the Advancement of White People said he hadn't invited these would-be demonstrators. William F. Miller claimed it only authorize three other demonstrators to come with him to Yellow Springs. Miller stressed that he didn't want to violate the May 20th Common Pleas court injunction limiting picketing at the barbershop the four persons at any one time. The demonstrators and the National Association for the Advancement of White People beat a local civil rights organization to the scene and placed the legal number of picketers outside the barbershop. When members of the Yellow Springs civil rights group Action showed up at 7:15 am, Miller and his group were already demonstrating at the barbershop. The Action demonstrators held a quick conference. They decided against violating the court order by placing any more mental the picket line since it already reached the legal limit. Instead, of the Yellow Springs civil rights group crossed the street. Bearing placards condemning racial discrimination, they picketed directly opposite Gegner’s barbershop. Meanwhile, the demonstrators from the National Association for the Advancement of White People continued picketing Gegner shop. WYSO News asked William F Miller, head of the Cincinnati-based group, why he was picketing.
	Bill Miller: Well, originally, I was demonstrating to show that this is still America and that Mr. Gegner has certain inherent rights which are being violated. But, since I’ve been up here, I think I must comment. The people up here who are protesting against us should be made to serve time in the service overseas where they would face a couple of communist bullets. I’m sure that they would change their mind and their opinion about what we are doing.
	WYSO News Reporter: Are you aware of the injunction, sir, which was issued by Common Please Court, which limits picketing to four persons at any time?
	Bill Miller: I’m fully aware of it. As I said before, we contacted the federal authorities and we’re completely in the clear.
	WYSO News Reporter: How do you mean?
	Bill Miller: Just what I said, we are completely in the clear, we wouldn’t do anything illegal.
	WYSO News Reporter: You said earlier you have the status of interstate travelers and therefore the justice department or federal authorities would protect you.
	Bill Miller: I have c—the only thing I will say is that I have contact—contacted Mr. Kennedy’s department, from there the lawyers have to kind of take it over.
	Radio Host: When Miller said that the civil rights demonstrators across the street should be made to face communist bullets, we wondered what he meant. So WYSO newsman David Gregory asked him:	17:16
	David Gregory: Could you tell us the relationship you see between speaking about communist bullets and the people who are demonstrating against Mr. Gegner’s policy?
	Bill Miller: Yes, I was just talking to one of your leaders over here, he was telling me about freedom of speech and everything else, but he seems to forget that just last week three of our young boys died for his right to make this speech. There is no…. I just can’t understand his type of logic.
	Radio Host: By this time, more local law enforcement officials were on the scene to ward all possible trouble. As the morning wore on, the picket line of village civil rights organization directly opposite the barbershop grew bigger and bigger. This reporter talked with Greene County Sheriff Russell Bradley.
	WYSO News Reporter: Do you think the picketing on the other side of the street by members of the village civil rights organization Action would be a violation of the Common Pleas court injunction?
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: I doubt very much; however, I’m going to get legal advice on that. I doubt, though, myself that they are in violation.
	Radio Host: The news that pickets from the National Association for the Advancement of White People were at Gegner’s barbershop spread quickly. The student civil rights group at Antioch College rally their forces. Students began to join village residents on the counter-picket line across from Gegner’s shop. As far as Miller was concerned, they should've stayed away.
	Bill Miller: If they would experience young boys their age dying over in Vietnam they would certainly think twice before they come out here and picket without knowing what they were picketing about. Power and the grabbing of power by people is what this whole thing is about. These boys will be their pawns, they will be slaughtered, they don’t realize it, but they will be. They represent the capitalist system whether they are away of it or not, and when—if these people come in control they will be slaughtered, there is no two ways about it.
	WYSO News Reporter: Are you referring to the Antioch students who have picketed here at times?
	Bill Miller: Yes.
	Radio Host: The executive secretary of the National Association for the Advancement of White People held a brief parley with barber Lewis Gegner. Emerging from the barbershop, Miller told newsmen:
	Bill Miller: Gegner has agreed to become an honorary member. We are extending him an honorary membership and he has agreed to accept it and of course we will extend our legal aid to him and if we become financially able we will give him all the financial aid we can.
	Radio Host: Describing the barber is a very good, strong man, Miller said the country needs more like him. The official of the National Association for the Advancement of White People dispelled fears that his organization was anti- Negro. Miller said we would allow a Negro to join as long as he is an American defending the Constitution. But the official said Negroes couldn't belong to his group if they were members of militant civil rights organizations like CORE or the NAACP. Miller felt veterans were best able to protect the American heritage, so WYSO newsman Dan Wershow, asked Miller about his own war record:
	Dan Wershow: Mr. Miller, could you tell us anything about your war record? Are you a veteran?
	Bill Miller: Yes, I served four years in service, nothing outstanding. I have seen an awful amount of death from it, but there is nothing outstanding about my record.
	Dan Wershow: You were on the European front?
	Bill Miller: Yes, I was in Italy for a year.
	Radio Host: By 10 o'clock some-thirty-five civil rights demonstrators were counter picketing Miller's group across the street from the barbershop. In the picket line were Yellow Springs residents, both white and Negro, Antioch College students and even mothers carrying small children in their arms. But what no one knew was yet whether they were violating Judge Warren C Young's May 20th injunction limiting picketing at Gegner's barbershop. So WYSO newsman David Gregory asked the Greene County Sheriff, Russell Bradley.	20:37
	David Gregory: Sheriff Bradley, are the civil rights demonstrators across the street from Gegner’s barbershop in Yellow Spring in violation of Judge Young’s injunction?
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: I don’t think so
	David Gregory: Has this been clarified by legal authorities?
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: That’s right, they are not in violation of the court order.
	David Gregory: How many pickets can they have over across the street?
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Across the street?
	David Gregory: Yes.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: As far as the court order, the court order does not limit any pickets across the street.
	Radio Host: But the counter picket line set up by civil rights demonstrators soon dwindled. Most of them went to a nearby school for a hurriedly called meeting. There, they decided to test the court order by placing another man in the picket line with four demonstrators from the National Association for the Advancement of White People. That would make five demonstrators in front of the barbershop, one beyond the legal limit. Presumably, then, Sheriff Bradley would have to arrest all the demonstrators on the picket line, whether they were for Gegner or against him. Yellow Springs Negro Al Bennett joined the four-man picket line of the National Association for the Advancement of White People at 10:30am. But one of the demonstrators dropped out of the picket line.
	Picketer 2: There’s only four; I dropped out.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Alright, then that’s four and that’s legal.
	Radio Host: The picket line in front of Gegner's barbershop was now legal again. There were only four people in it: three pickets supporting Gegner; one opposing him. Many spectators had gathered Sheriff Bradley had tried to clear them away.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: You people who are not concerned with this, I want you to move back, keep this open here.
	Radio Host: One of the demonstrators from the National Association for the Advancement of White People didn't like the fact that a Yellow Springs Negro had joined the picket line in front of Gegner's barbershop. He argued with Greene County Sheriff Russell Bradley.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: I am really concerned that we don’t have any violence or anything like that.	22:49
	Bill Miller: That is the uppermost in my mind.
	Picketer 3: This is not right. This, just what happened.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Well, sir, I am not the one who makes that decision.
	Picketer 3: No, no.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: I am here to enforce the court order. And the rest of the officers are here to try to see that there’s no trouble.
	Radio Host: But William F. Miller assured newsmen that he wouldn't put any more of his men on the picket line because he didn't want to violate the court order.
	Bill Miller: I have agreed with every law enforcing—enforcement agency that I will not break the law. I have assured the sheriff there would be no more of my men, only four people. Only time will tell what we will do. If I get made enough I’ll bring sixteen men in.
	Radio Host: A few minutes later, another Yellow Springs Negro, Mrs. Fay Greene, joined the picket line. Now the line was up to five again: three demonstrators from the National Association for the Advancement of White People; two from the village civil rights group Action. The picket line was one above the legal limit, and Sheriff Bradley asked that it be reduced to four. But he didn't notice that one of the demonstrators from the National Association for the Advancement of White people had dropped off the line. A WYSO reporter pointed this out to the sheriff.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Now, again, I’ll have to—if we’re going to continue with five pickets—I’ll have to read the restraining order.
	WYSO News Reporter: There are only four of us.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Sir?
	WYSO News Reporter: 1, 2, 3, 4.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Oh, we’ve got 1, 2, 3, 4 now? Oh, we’re legal.
	Radio Host: But the picket line was legal very long. William F. Miller, Executive Secretary of the National Association for the Advancement of White People, picked up a picket sign and got back on the line. Sheriff Bradley counted again:
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Well, now look: preferably, we would rather get by here and not make any arrests if we can. I—as I explained to you a few minutes ago, five is illegal and we cannot have but four pickets. Now that’s what Judge Young from the counties has ruled. We cannot have over four. And I’ll be glad to read the restraining order, and we will have to limit the picketing to four.
	Radio Host: But Miller didn't want to leave the picket line.
	Bill Miller: Sheriff, I have no intention of breaking your law. As I understood it, you told me I—the first ones here would have prerogative over the marching. I assured you that I would not have more than four people. I think this is my right as a law-abiding citizen. Now, if I have to be arrested, I am quite willing to be arrested.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: Well, sir, I, I cannot say who is allowed to picket and who is not. Otherwise, you people were here, you were marching with four people; however, there’s been other people in. It would be the same way if four people was from the other side and some of you people joined them, then we have to enforce this restraining order. Its—that has to be done because that is a ruling from a court, and I am charged with enforcing this court order.	25:33
	Radio Host: Once again, Sheriff Bradley requested that the picket line be limited to four people.
	Sheriff Russell Bradley: I appreciate it—as I say, I prefer not to make any arrests. If some of you the people would cut down, I don’t say who, I would appreciate to see only four people in the picket line. If it goes over than that regardless, well I’ve got to enforce the law.
	Bill Miller: If we move out our civil rights will be violated. Therefore, I’m sorry but I will not disperse. It will have to be them.

Item Info

Title:

Affidavits from women of Barry Farms Public Housing, Washington, DC re: cohabitation with men, WYSO (Antioch College Public Radio) news report on desegregation in Yellow Springs, OH

Date:

September 16, 1963

Creator:

Rubin, Larry, 1942-

Description:

The audio in this recording has been digitally processed to reduce noise and enhance clarity. The unprocessed preservation file can be requested by contacting the John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African American History and Culture https://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/franklin.

Subject:

Format: