Mary Perry interview recording, 1993 July 29
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| Rhonda Mawhood | From New Bern? | 0:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. | 0:02 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | You are, uh-huh— | 0:02 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I was born over by the bypass. | 0:04 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, the bypass? | 0:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Midway up bypass. As soon as you leave 70, go into 17th, that's where I was born at. And we moved over to James City, which is, we call it—that's James City too, but this part down here is 70 East, but I live a little further up this road, and that's where I was reared up. That's how I married my husband about 21, 22 years ago. 'Cause I've been married twice, and I came down here to stay. I've been here ever since. He's dead and gone. But I'm going to stay right here till I die sometime. This old house is old. I have to keep doing something to keep it up. But I'm not going to buy one. I ain't able to buy a house. I'm going to stay right here, because I couldn't build a house no way, 'cause I don't have that kind of money. | 0:12 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Ms. Perry, what kind of work did your parents do, ma'am? | 1:05 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | My mother, she worked out in service and see, years ago we used to have gardens and we would raised vegetables and we had little pull bag, you could pull that we go around New Bern and sell. We make good money too. We go around yelling, "Nice beans, butter beans, corn, peas and watermelon." Whatever we had. The people bought it. And then sometimes she would have a little jar, she would wait after she sell because we could be sold out about 9:30, sometimes, 10:00. | 1:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Because some people had special place, they had to take food. Like these stores, they bought baskets from us, and we would sell our stuff out. If we had anywhere else to go to work, we would go. And my daddy, he worked to the mill, and [indistinct 00:02:05] factory. Anyway, he'd get something to do, because he had a farm too. But that's just the way we made it. Because you couldn't make it like that now, that little stuff what we done. But prices was not now like the they were then. But it takes a lot of money to live now. | 1:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did your family own the land that you gardened? | 2:26 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 2:29 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | They did? | 2:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. We owned the land. | 2:32 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Where did they get the land, do you know? | 2:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They bought it. See, you could go buy a lot, you could pay so much a week, or so much a month. And a lot of people had so much they were glad to get rid of it. That's where we got land. But that's some good old days though. The food tasted better, and there wasn't no nothing in the world like they are now. No poison or nothing. 'Cause fish ain't hardly fit to eat. Crab. They're not hardly fit to eat because there's so much junk in the river. They throws everything in the river. It's poison. You don't need eat these fish now, but people eat them. I eat them too. | 2:34 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Where did you sell the vegetables? You told me that you had a cart. | 3:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. Right across that bridge over there. You came over here, right over there in New Bern over there. And it wasn't even as large as it is now. But honey, we would go all around New Bern and sell, and we had special people that they knew us and we knew them, and we just would go around selling. In the afternoon we would go to some of these folks down the road here, they would have big gardens, and we would buy peas from them and beans or whatever. They had this sale and we shell the butter bean nights, or shell the garden peas at night. After we would shell them, we would measure them, put them in the—we had a ice box then. We didn't have a Frigidaire. Put them in the ice box, sell the next morning. We'd get out there, we'd leave about 7:00. 6 30 to someplace like those stores, because they opened early. And we would've be through by 9:00 or 9:30, sometimes 10:00. So that's the way we made, we made good money. | 3:21 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you sell to White people and to Black people? | 4:35 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Anybody. We didn't care. I mean, so far as White, nice White. Nice Black, and some of the Whites was mean, and some of them were nice. But I always got along with them because I knew how to act. I knew how to talk to them. Course, I been cursed. I went to White man's door. My sister had wait for his mother, and I went to the front door, and he cursed me out, telling me to go to the back. Well see, we had a pull out, which—and I wait to go factory, too, and the White folks would come in there, because [indistinct 00:05:19] right near the door. | 4:42 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They come right in there, didn't even see me. Passed right on by me. And I was used to it, didn't worry me. But I used to be [indistinct 00:05:31]. But things has changed a little. Ain't changed too much, though. But I kind of sit whatever, long as they don't hit me. But I fight now. After I see how everything is and the way things are going, it was doing pretty good one time. But it's getting to be bad again. But I try to stay on my side of the road and drive right and talk right and treat people right. So I don't have no problem. | 5:21 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did your parents teach you how to act towards White people, ma'am? | 6:04 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. Yeah. | 6:11 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did they teach you to act? | 6:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | To do right, I mean, speak. That's one thing I was really taught, to speak. When you meet someone, speak to them. But White folks, they wouldn't—a few of them would speak, but most of them didn't. And if they didn't see you, but if I knew you, I'd speak to you. And I have been close to some of them, because lady lives over the bridge, I haven't seen her in a long time. When I see her she, just hugs me and I hugs her. She kisses me, and I kisses her. Some of them are real nice. | 6:16 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But everywhere I worked, a White was always my boss. And I know how to treat him. He ask me to do something, I'd do it. If I had a problem with what he wanted me to do, I'd always talk to him about it. Always talk calm. I didn't go there cursing and raising, saying that's not the way to treat no one. So I would just tell him what I had on my mind. I said, "Oh, that's not right." And this and that. And they would talk—well, we would talk nice, 'cause I'd say, "I always like you, I respect you. You're my boss and you're nice." Talk nice to him. That's the way to deal with a lot of people. Sometime I had to lie a little bit to get along, but I ain't have no problem. | 6:43 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Well, you said that you wouldn't have a problem as long as nobody hit you. Did that ever happen to you, ma'am, that a White person hit you? | 7:30 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No ma'am. No ma'am. Nobody hit me. No. But I mean, some of them have been hit. Some of them have been slapped but I haven't, no. | 7:37 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you know people who were slapped? | 7:48 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, yeah. Yeah, I know people who were slapped. Yes, I do. But it didn't bother me. I mean, they didn't never slap me, because I don't work with nobody that slap their workers. The people that worked for them. Because I worked with one man down to Havelock down there, I felt like slapping him, 'cause he worried me. His wife left him, and she got mad, and time she got mad, this husband built her a big house, and he wasn't able to build her one. And he was kind of mixed up there, I know he was, 'cause he worried me. I worked for him. I tried to work, always was smart at work. And I tried to do good work, too. | 7:55 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I worked in a dry cleaner plant. I worked in a dry cleaner plant about 50 years, and I knew what to do, and I'd go all out of my way to be nice to him. He's always on my back telling me, "Mary, you didn't do this and you didn't do that." And I felt like hitting him, but I didn't. But he worried me. So I got ready to stop working for him. I ran in his office and told him that I was leaving. "Why? Why? You the best help I got." I said, "Well, I can't help it." I said, "Because you worry me. I try to work, try to do your work nice— " And we having problems with the machines wasn't working. I said, "I knew all about that, and I tried to do good work, and you don't seem to be satisfied." "Mary, please don't leave. Please, please don't." I said, "Well, I just can't stand it." I said, "I got the work, and then I got to worry about you too." | 8:41 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Because one day I was eating and I'd always come in, if I was late, I always had me something to eat, because I had to have something to eat every morning. That's the way I eat. Always had me a sandwich or something. And I stand up there and be working and eating, and he came at me and told me, "What you doing eating?" I said, "Because I'm hungry." "Well, I'm going to fix a place for y'all can go in there on your own time and sit down and eat, and you won't be eating on my time." | 9:33 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And I said okay. I kept on working. And he stayed off about 10 minutes. When he come back, I was through eat. "Where's your food?" I said, "I ate it up. It's in my stomach." "What?" I said, "That's right. It's in my stomach." So he went on about his business that time. But anyway, I left him though, because he was nice in one sense, but he wasn't. He wasn't never satisfied. And I understand why his wife left him, because, for one thing, he was mixed up in the head. That was what was wrong with him. | 10:02 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How long ago was this, ma'am? That you were working there for this man? | 10:37 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I don't know. About seven, eight years ago. | 10:42 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Seven, eight years ago? And you were working in a factory? | 10:46 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Dry cleaning plant. | 10:50 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Dry cleaning. Okay. | 10:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I ain't ever worked in no factory. Yes, I did. I used to work in a crab factory. That one right down there. | 10:52 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Crab factory? | 10:56 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 11:00 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When was that, ma'am? | 11:00 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh Lord. That's been years and years ago. I was real young. I wasn't even married. There's a crab factory right down the street down there. You can smell it. | 11:01 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I have smelled it. | 11:10 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | That's right. And that's the only factory I worked in. I worked in a drying cleaning plant. I used to work on the farm, and people hired to chop every day or pick beans or whatever. I worked. I had to work. | 11:16 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How old were you when you started working on the farm or the garden, ma'am? | 11:27 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | About 13, 14 years old. | 11:29 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | 13. | 11:35 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 11:35 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And how long did you go to school, Mrs. Perry? | 11:38 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | 10th grade. | 11:38 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | 10th grade. So you were working and going to school? | 11:38 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I worked in the summer and I went to school in the winter. You know how children get out from school. But I got married. I got married, I was 18. | 11:54 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | You were 18 [indistinct 00:12:02]? | 12:00 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Started having children, that was goodbye school. | 12:03 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did you meet your husband, ma'am? Your first husband? | 12:07 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I been knowing him all my life. Went to school with him. He was older than I was. Well, I knew him all my life. He was just like my son is, smart in school, very good. He was real good. And I met him. He liked me, because I—I was young. I liked the boys, but I didn't take none of them serious when I was real young. Till I got pregnant, so I had take my husband seriously. He just wasn't no good. He wouldn't even work. He wouldn't even work. And I had to get out there and scramble and work. I had six children. My baby was about a year when I went to work, and I've been working ever since. I worked too. I had to work. Work days and come home, had to wash, iron, clean my house. I had clean house then, too. I had mind full spotless. That's the way I made it. | 12:10 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | May I ask you, Mrs. Perry, did you get married because you were pregnant or you got pregnant soon after? | 13:18 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I got married because I was pregnant, and that's it. I was 18, though, at that time. | 13:27 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did your husband—did you have any problem telling him that you were going to have to get married or that you wanted to get married? | 13:40 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well when I come along, you got [indistinct 00:13:56]. Your mother and father going to look for that man. He had to marry you. Now, that's right. You didn't see a lot of courtship. Well some [indistinct 00:14:04], some of them had children and no husband. There are quite a few of them, but honey, in my day, where I lived at, if you had a baby for your boyfriend with, your mother and father going to go look for him. And you had to get married. Because I knew a man had a gun. He followed a boy around, 'cause I called a shotgun wedding. And that boy married his daughter. Yes, sir. He didn't talk about it. But when it come time to get married, he didn't show up. He got out there in his car and honey, he found that boy and he made him marry. Because they had already planned it, but he didn't show, because he didn't want to get married. | 13:52 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But they stayed together. They stayed together I think about two, three years. And was she in school? Yes. She was in college. But anyway, that boy married her. Yeah, he did. 'Cause that girl's daddy got in his car and he went around and he found him, and ought to be some men like that today. | 14:49 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I got married 'cause I had to get married. Ain't going to lie. Like a lot of people tell lie. I don't believe in lying. Tell it like it is. Tell the truth. Well anyway, but I stayed with my husband till he got—he drank a lot. He was a drunkard, and I just left him. | 15:20 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And so he started to drink a lot and then you left him? | 15:42 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, I had to leave him 'cause he got so he would fight. I left him and he would follow me, come down my house every day. His grandmother, she used to come down there, and I got tired running to my house every day, so she came down and one day, I slammed the door in her face. She didn't come down there no more. | 15:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | That's [indistinct 00:16:09]. This fan here you go. You stay down here because you got a house, apartment? Anything else you want to know? You asked me about my babies. My babies was born—oh I had all my babies home. I had a midwife with about two of them. The rest of them, the doctor had came to my house. | 16:05 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | To your house? | 16:35 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 16:36 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So which did you like better? Having a midwife, or having a doctor? | 16:37 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, a doctor. | 16:43 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Doctor? | 16:43 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. And they didn't charge, the doc. Let me see, the midwife charged $30 or sometime $50. Sometimes you would be so sick you had to go to the hospital or go to—they call the doc. Because we didn't go to the hospital then like we do now. And the people living longer now, I don't understand it, because I mean, people didn't go to the hospital like they do now. There was a gentleman right over there sick and I'm over every day and he, course he been to hospital, but if you get sick, when I was coming along, the doctor come to you. | 16:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well honey, the people in the neighborhood would go there and stay with you nights. Whatever you could do the help, they will do that. Go to your house and stay all night. And it was a group would stay there tonight, and some would stay tomorrow night and give the husband, the wife or whoever, the family looking out for him, a chance to rest. We'd contribute money, we'd go together and give money, help to pay the doctor bill. That's the way we used to do when I was coming along. But it's not like that now, see, they got to—well it's better for them to go to the hospital. | 17:25 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When a woman in the neighborhood had a baby, was that similar? Did the neighbors come and help out? | 18:07 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. If you needed them, yeah, they were there. Yes sir. Everybody in the neighborhood went there. And someone go there and do your laundry for you. Someone go there, clean up your house or whatever you needed. Yeah. And you got to ask nobody. But nowadays, you got to ask people. You don't just go to the house and do like they done years ago. You ask, because some people, "I don't what you coming here for. I don't need it." And such stuff like that. But longer than that day everybody lived. I don't understand. They lived together and they lived apart, 'cause they would argue and fuss. | 18:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What kinds of things would people argue and fuss and fight about when you were coming along? Do you remember what kinds of things would— | 19:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Boyfriends, husbands. That's the biggest thing, 'cause you know men been running around and womens too, ever since there's been a world. That's the biggest thing. And some of them was jealous. You get something, they couldn't get it, they keep on till they have a just a big argument. They would fight, go to court. Yeah, the judge make them pay something. Yeah, they did. | 19:09 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember, are there any specific examples of that stick out in your mind of that kind of fussing? | 19:41 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. I'll tell you one. One was there was a man was named Charlie Sweeney. He was a older man, and he had married this young woman. She had, I don't know how many children she had, and I forgot. About eight or nine. Anyway, he ran a store and he had some neighbors lived on the left hand side where he still was. And see, people then would go get stuff on time or credit. Whatever you go in there, you want, you go in there and tell them what you want, and say put it on the book. They write your name down, how much it was. So these people, they loved to argue and fuss, period. | 19:49 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mr. Sweeney and his wife? | 20:34 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. His neighbors. They owed him some money, but they would fuss a lot about children. You know children. You hit my child, or my child will hit you, you hit him. What stuff is that? But anyway, they got mad at Charley about something concerning his shirt and the lady's grandchildren. And they got in the street and they cursed that man and told him everything. Called him Black, and he was Black. But he said, "Well, I'm Black." He said, "But I'll tell you one thing. I fed your White stomach." And they were Black too, but he told them the truth. Said, "You got my stuff and you won't pay." They didn't never pay the man. But they was out there raising, saying he was nice. 'Cause I owed you some money, and I'd let a lot go by rather than be out there arguing, fussing with you, because I owed you money. But he said "Well, and one thing I said, I fed your White stomach." And honey, they went down to have him arrested. The judge told them go on back home. That's right. | 20:35 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But anything else you want to ask me? I know we had a rough time, though, I'll tell you right now. Honey, we have come a long way. | 21:41 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Well, what kinds of things made it a rough time, ma'am? Can you tell me what kind of things? | 21:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Money. That's one thing. And the way we were treated, too., we were really treated bad, but I wasn't never treated bad, but no more than that man [indistinct 00:22:04] have like that, because I always got along with people. But it wasn't jobs and it wasn't paying like they pay. Because right here, right now, these Black children had to go ahead and get a good job, make money. They didn't make no money around here. The White man, I know a lady just finished the eighth grade. She went to First Citizen Bank, went to work. She went to work, and she stayed there until she retired. | 21:53 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Let's see, Marley what's her name. Don't to put her name down there, my God. Her mother was around too. Her mother worked to the where you pay light bill. She worked there for years, and she retired. So Marley got this job to the bank. Finished eighth grade, and she stayed there until she retired. And another thing around is who you know. You were such and such. One summer, "He wants a job." Well, we going to give him one, 'cause he such and such and one's child." And a lot of time, this child will get in trouble, but his daddy is a lawyer or mayor or teacher, whatever. He don't get no time. | 22:38 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Was it like that when you were coming along too, Mrs. Perry? | 23:19 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes, yes. It still is right now. Because the little White boy told me when school start, he said he was going to, this would be his place. "Yeah." I said, "That's nice." And he was so excited and everything. He said, "You reckon I can get a job here in New Bern, in this area?" I said, "Well, I don't know." I said, "I'll tell you right now. It's who you know for you to get a job." He said, "I heard that." I said, "Yeah, who you know and who you are, your family." You know what I mean, if you've got a good, a rich family or making good money and everything, "Well, that's such and such and one's son or such and such and one's daughter, let's give her a job." Stuff like that. That's always been that way, ever since I can remember. | 23:25 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mary, do you remember people in the Black community being treated differently or treating each other differently because of the color of their skin? Different skin tones. You know what I mean? | 24:16 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No, not that I know of. No, I don't remember, no. They ever treat you—no. Not that I—I don't know. I'm trying to say, but I don't remember none right now. Because Black is all colors. We got all colors. | 24:26 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | That's right. | 24:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. But I don't think so. | 24:48 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you were coming along, how did Black people get along with the police? | 24:57 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Bad. | 25:03 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Bad? | 25:05 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. Yes. If you was Black, he would treat the White man better than he would you. That's right. Yes, Lord. That's been going on for years. I don't know whether it still is now, where you came from, but it still is around here. Yes, ma'am. | 25:06 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember any specific incidents between Black people and the police? | 25:24 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Lord, I'm to tell you the truth, there's so much happening now. I just can't remember right off. Now, when you leave, I can think of every little incident that happened. But yeah, we really are treated different. Sometime you lucky enough to don't have an incident, they'll treat the Black is better they do the White, but that's very seldom around here. Yes, ma'am. | 25:34 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did your parents teach you any particular way to act towards policemen? | 26:08 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No, because I knew I was scared of them and I didn't give them no— | 26:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | You were scared of them? | 26:21 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, I was scared of them. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, it's like patrol ones right now. I had a wreck. Scared to death and wasn't even my fault. Man ran in the back of my car. | 26:21 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When was that, ma'am? How long ago was that? | 26:33 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | About seven—six or seven years. It wasn't no big deal, but he ran the back of my car, and I really felt like I would be mistreated on account of my age. 'Cause they do you, if you's old, honey, you all ready go, driving a car, and they'll take your license away from you. Yes, ma'am. Because I got two friends that took their license away from them, and I probably would've lost mine then, but since then, since that wreck was, I had to go have my eyes tested every year. My eyes tested. Well, I go to the doctor twice a year, but they wanted my insurance. I had to have my eyes tested, and wanting to know was my eye blurry, I had blurry vision. Could I see well? But I always passed those tests. | 26:38 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When did you learn how to drive, Mrs. Perry? | 27:40 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I was 50 years old. | 27:42 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | 50 years old. | 27:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | 50 years old when I learned how to drive. Yeah. | 27:51 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So that's more than 25 years ago. | 27:54 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | That's right. I was just as proud. Yeah, because I always say, I was going to know how to drive. I got married that same year to my husband. | 27:57 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Is your husband still living, ma'am? | 28:06 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No, he died. | 28:07 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry. | 28:07 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | He been dead about 12 years ago. Yeah. This October. Yeah, I got my driving license, and I'm glad that I got my license too. I go and I get ready. But people over here, some of them, they think you can ride down the highway on air. They want you to take them here and take them there, and I had to slow down, because the lady live out there in the country. I don't know. She thinks she's slick too. Oh, but she's slick. She wants to keep her money and you carry her all around, give you $5. I used to go for nothing. Take her around sometime for nothing. Which I still does take her some time, but like I go shopping, I got to go five or six places in this day till about 2:00 and 3:00 in the day for $5 a day? No. If I was able to be something different. | 28:11 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | So I just cut her off, and she don't like it though, but I still— | 29:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They think you can drive on air and they get mad at you, too. 'Cause that's my neighbor there. I used to take out a lot, but go in the store and one store stay two hours. I just told her, I said "Ma, where you been?" "In the store." She just slow anyway. So I told her [indistinct 00:29:38] said, I said "Good land, I [indistinct 00:29:40] you stayed so long, and I thought something happened to you." "No, I'm all right." But she got an nasty. "I'm all right." Okay. So she hadn't bothered me much since then. But I don't want to ride nobody. Let them call a cab. That's what they out here for. | 29:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Ms. Perry, I think that you told me that there were 10 children in your family when you were growing up? | 30:02 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 30:06 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So you have nine brothers and sisters? How many brothers and how many sisters did you have? | 30:07 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh I had, let me see, one, two—about—my oldest brother John. Jane. I had some that died when they was babies, because I had two of them die when they was babies. But there was five boys. Five boys, and let's see. My sister Mariah, [Indistinct 00:30:49], Frances. Had two Frances. Yeah, it was about 10 of us. | 30:10 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How many of them lived to be grown, ma'am. | 30:57 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | All of them. No, no, no. I'm lied right there. I had three of them died when they was young. I had one brother. The first one died. He was about seven years old. And the rest of them, they were babies. Infant babies. | 31:01 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So were you one of the older ones or one of the younger ones, ma'am? | 31:18 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I am the—about the fifth child, because that was my sister, brother. Me, I'm the fifth child. | 31:23 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What kind of a house did you have for all of these people when you were growing up? | 31:41 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | We had a house with, I think, the four bedrooms, 'cause my daddy could do a little carpentry and we didn't build houses then like they do now, because we just add on to it. That's the way we would do. And then had a storage house too. Yeah, put junk in it. | 31:50 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And around the house and on the farm, was there girls' work and boys' work? | 32:12 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, we would work together. Now, my daddy, after my oldest, my brother got old enough to plow, he taught him how to plow, and they would get out there and plow until they got a job. When they got a job, went to work. And when they went to work, they had to help out. So many of us there. | 32:19 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What animals did they plow with, ma'am? | 32:40 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Horses and mules. Yeah. | 32:42 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you take care of the horses and the mules yourself? | 32:46 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. I'm scared of horse right to death. I heard the man [indistinct 00:32:54] yesterday say he would always be afraid of a horse. He was raised up around horses, but he's always been afraid of them, and I was too. Always be. I used to dream about them at night, they were chasing me. | 32:50 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So did your parents understand that you were afraid of the horses? | 33:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I didn't have to bother with them, because I didn't do no driving or nothing. Now my mother, she would drive, she would go down the road to brother so-and-so and buy some peas. And we had to get out there and pick them or sometimes they would having ready for us. But I didn't never, never. But we had a big backyard, we put those horses in that yard back there, and sometime horses were just running backwards and forwards in the yard. And sometime I'd be out there, I'd freeze, I'd be so scared I didn't know what to do. They weren't running at me, they were just running. Oh, I'd be so afraid. But anyway, I was raised around horses and mules. Didn't have a cow though. | 33:17 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Where did you get your milk? | 34:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | We would buy. People in the neighborhood. Sometimes we had to go a long way to get it. Have you ever been to Dutch country? | 34:05 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Dutch country? | 34:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | You've heard of it? | 34:18 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | No, I haven't— | 34:24 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | It's near Philadelphia. Let me see. | 34:24 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Yes. Okay. I haven't been there. No. I have heard of it, though. | 34:26 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well I went there, they got one man, it's a little neighborhood that one man that furnish all the milk for the neighborhood. One man that furnishes all the orange juice, and one man that furnishes the vegetables. But anyway, they live off from everybody else. They got horse and carts, they got farms, they got the graveyard, and they got a teacher. Now, they don't have but one teacher. They have one teacher. The teacher, she taught them until they got to, I think, seventh or eighth grade. Then they'll take them out, teach them how to farm. Now, they didn't go to school no more. Because I mean we had one of those interpreters to take us around. And when that boy got in seventh grade, he would go out there on that farm, and his girls would go too when they got— | 34:29 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But they'd never leave them. If they leave them, they would come back. And they live together. They didn't have no doctors out there at that time. They had castor oil by their mouth. That's all they would use. And there's no lights. Had lamp lights. The houses was built like this room here. And then there's another room. It come to the top, come down a little further, another room. The one on the last end was the oldest son. When he got married, that portion was built for him. And the next portion of this house, I don't know if it one room or two room or what, but you could tell it was the tallest—the front building was high. | 35:36 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Next one's little lower. The next one's little lower. But you didn't see but three tops, that's all you could see. And they would get up mornings, he said. Go to work after they did come out of school and they would party just about all night long, Sunday night. So they let them have parties, but they didn't get, nobody get drunk. They didn't have no beer, but they had some wine, but they would've stayed all night long, but they had to be on that farm at 7:00 in the morning. Now, you had that to do, now. That what was told to me. But everything turned out all right. They didn't have no fighting. I know nothing. | 36:28 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did these people remind you of what the time when you were growing up? | 37:14 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, because they had horse and carts. And we had horse and carts. You see some with the legs out on this side of horse and carts and some on that side. They're buggies. Buggies. They had carts and buggies too. But most young people, the pledge they had, they would have these horse and carts. And if you see a lot of two or three heads of women's heads out this side and that side, they were looking for husbands. That's right. And the one had just got married, they'd be in the front seat, and the one that was head hanging, I see some heads showing on this side, some showing there, they were looking for husbands. And they got married, but they stayed right there. | 37:22 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Now I don't know whether they have changed it. I sure would love to know. They said that they goes off away from there, but they comes back eventually, and they comes back there and they stay there. But it's a nice clean area. They got farm, no electric lights, no toilets, and no running water. And they live. And they had one general store. Because I got a spoon right now I bought when I was in Dutch country. Yeah. But they got along fine, 'cause if they did, I mean, the man didn't tell us, but he said they got along fine. He said they was all seemed to be happy. But one family would furnish whatever they needed. So they got along good. | 38:05 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you were growing up, Mrs. Perry, how old were boys and girls usually when they started courting? | 38:56 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Just about like they are now. Just about like they are now. And some women, you take those that waited a long time and didn't [indistinct 00:39:14], some of them are still single today. That's right. Some of them are still single today. Because some of them had children, never got married. | 39:04 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you were growing up, did young women know about pregnancy and about sex? Did they know what to expect? | 39:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. Yes. They knew, now. Yes, ma'am. All out there in the bushes. That's right. Down the railroad track. And that's why it was a bad time that time, when they was—sometime they'd get in cars, but everybody didn't have a car when I was coming along. Course, everybody got a car now. Everybody. But when I come, everybody didn't have a car. | 39:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So they learned that way. | 40:10 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 40:11 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Were there ways that women, married women or single women, whatever, were there ways that they knew of to keep from having babies? | 40:18 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. The same things they got now. What they call them, condoms. Well, they had them, I remember that well. They rubber. That's what they had. They knew, but they didn't take time to advertise it then like they do now. Yeah, they had raised, they knew. | 40:31 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So the young men had these? | 40:53 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, if he carried anything far, he did. 'Cause some of them didn't care. And some of them out here just like that now. They don't care. Yeah, they had a condom. What did we call them? Mariettas, that's what they were called. | 40:57 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What did they call them? | 41:08 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Mariettas. I don't know how you spell it now, but Mary [Indistinct 00:41:17], but they were protections. They called. They said protections, too. But they called them Mariettas and I wouldn't even know how to spell it. Yeah. They knew how to—some men was real nice, and they didn't want nothing to happen to the girlfriend until they married them. And some of them—like [indistinct 00:41:40] then. 'Cause nowadays, everybody getting married had sex. Now. Yes sir. And there was some men was just—well, their mother didn't never let them go out too much when they're growing up. | 41:14 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did young women feel—you said that sometimes young men would use condoms and sometimes they wouldn't. Did young women feel like they could insist that a man use one? Did they feel like they were free to say— | 41:55 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. To some of them. Some men, they were raping them then just like they do now. Yeah, that's right. They would rape them then. Course, you didn't hear no talk about it, but they did. And sometimes they get pregnant from that. Yeah. | 42:12 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you know about such things, about women being raped? | 42:28 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, we knew it. They'll talk about it. But nobody cared then. 'Cause there were girls [indistinct 00:42:39], naturally and she would care, but they didn't— Sometimes they would take out a warrant or something like that sometime, but it didn't amount to much. Not like now, because you will get prison time now for raping. But raping been going on ever since I've been in the world, and that's been a long time. Yeah. | 42:33 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What did girls' mothers tell them about sex and rape? | 43:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They tell them just like they do right now. They would warn them. They would tell them and be particular, be careful. And some of them were, and some of them wasn't. 'Cause some children would do what they wanted to do regardless of what—just like children are today. Regardless what my mother said or my father said, they would do what they want to do. And that's just the way they were in my day. Just like they are right now. Yes. | 43:06 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | From what you know, did young people when you were coming along have many different boyfriends and girlfriends before they married? Or did they stick with one, or— | 43:44 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Some of them. Some of them. Just like they are today. Some girls don't know nothing about number one man. Because I got a friend, she's a school teacher now. She worked with me, and she started going to [indistinct 00:44:10] Tech out there. We call that [indistinct 00:000:44:12] Tech, that college out there. She started going there two nights I think a week or something. But then she went for about two years. Anyway, then she started going to Greenville. She was working with me, and she would get off. Boss didn't like it though. Because he thought, I'm tell you about it. Some White folk, they think that Black people don't need nothing. I mean it, because I mean, this man, now, he had two daughters and a son that finished college with his son. They must have gave him what he got knowing because he was dumb as I don't know what. And lazy too. | 44:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And the teacher was all—they was always up back to that teacher now. 'Cause I believe he paid the raise. A lot of teachers in my time, they would pay the teachers, just pass their children. And they thought they were doing something, but they wasn't. But anyway, she told me after she got the last year, she quit her job. She said, "I'm going to college." "You going to school? You don't know how much money it take." Just like she was crazy, now. "You don't know how much money it'll take." Honey, then he would tell her how much money would cost him a month. And she knew all that he was saying, but she was nice. She didn't argue with him. She didn't say nothing but just listening to him. He said, "Honey, you better stay, honey, it's high, and you don't need this." White man talking to this Black woman. | 44:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But she went right on. She said, "You know one thing, Mary?" She was just, "I'm determined. I'm going to finish. Ain't nobody going to stop me." And her husband was right with her 100%. One thing, he loved her, she loved him, and the two nice sweet people. And she was worried and they put that money in the bank. And she saved too. She saved money. Yes, she did. I don't believe she worked. I think one time she asked me to loan her $10. But she was smart. And she knew how to spend a dollar too. Yeah. But anyway, honey, that child went to school. She said, "When I get out— " She said, "I'm going to give— " His name was Whiteside. "I'm going to give him a—" | 45:42 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Beautiful handwriting. And everybody, she waited on the front in [indistinct]. But she was cute and she went real nice all the time. And everybody knew her and she could always talk to people like she been knowing them, but she never seen them before. She always act like she knew the, you know? And they liked her there. Everybody came in the door liked her. "Where Nancy?" And so, she went on to finish college and she is working out at [Indistinct] right now. But she made it. And her mother-in-law had said, "I'm not going to help her. I'm not helping." She said, "I don't want her to help me." She said, "I got Jim and I got Jesus." I said, "That's enough." So, [indistinct] honey stuck right with her. And honey, she's doing fine. She's a good teacher too. She said she was going to be a school—anything you want, you set your mind to it, you'll do it. Yes, sir. | 0:01 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So, this is not too long ago that she— | 0:56 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | She's been teaching—I don't believe she been teaching four years. It might have been four. But I don't think anyhow, she's nice. And she hasn't changed. Because a lot of people finish college and get a job making big money, it changes them.You know, But she's the same Nancy. She and her husband. Her husband, he's so proud. And he said, "Miss Mary, I been doing something right." I said, "Mm-hmm." Now, he call me Miss Mary. She call me Mary. But anyway, we get along now. Honey, she don't know nothing about nobody but him. She ain't never had no boyfriend. | 0:59 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And his sister, she used to get girls to come to her house to meet her brother. That her brother, Jimmy. And he wouldn't even go. And his wife knew it. But she said she wasn't worried. She said, "I know Jimmy ain't going to run around on me." He didn't either. But his mother did. Mother had men, bring them all to the house. And her husband would be right there. Which is Jimmy's father. Would be there. Have parties all the time. They were balling all the time. Yeah, the same thing happened years ago, I mean, it's happening right now. | 1:38 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Well, Miss Mary, one thing that we hear about now is about people being involved, like women being involved with women, and men being involved with men. | 2:19 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 2:29 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you hear about any of that going on when you were growing up? | 2:30 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh, yes. | 2:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, I didn't hear too much about women going with women. I mean, I do remember people would talk about things like that. But the men now, they will talk about that open, but the women—but you know what they called them. I ain't going to tell you what they called them. I ain't going to mention that. But they called women. | 2:34 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | They called women. | 2:54 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Bulldaggers. That's what they called them in that day. But I didn't hear too much about that going on. But I always heard about men. | 2:59 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So, people talked about men going with men? | 3:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. They was out and about. You want to get out there in a way for people to talk about you, make people talk about you. You know? Yeah. | 3:14 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did people talk about it? What kinds of ways did they talk about it? | 3:22 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Just say, "Well, he's one of those," you know? And some of them like Sampson. | 3:25 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | They'd wave. They— | 3:33 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. | 3:34 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Uh-huh. | 3:36 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, that's what it meant. Some of them called— they had names for those, too. But anyway, that's been going on. | 3:37 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you know any of the men who people said this about? | 3:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Uh-huh. Yeah. A lot of them. Even in my family. I got some in my family. | 3:48 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 3:56 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Got some in my family. | 3:57 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did they stay in this area or did they move away? | 4:00 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No, they stayed with their family. Yeah. Some of them moved away. But they moved away, they come back occasionally to visit. Yeah. | 4:03 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Well, how did your family, you know— | 4:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, we received them. You supposed to receive them just like they are. Ain't nothing you can do about it. Yeah. Treat them nice just like I did anybody else. | 4:17 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So were these older men in your family, or younger men? | 4:29 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Younger men. It was old men and it was young mens. Yeah. And I could like right at one right now and tell it. I can. I don't say nothing. But I mean, I can tell you. There's a lot of them live down that way, down that road. There're White ones, too. Come down here, shimmying like a woman. I can look right at them and tell it. You can tell by the way they act. You know? They're frisky. Most of them are. | 4:33 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Could you tell how they were by the way they acted years ago when you were coming up, too? | 5:04 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. I didn't have much knowledge about them then. Can I go in there? I got some collards in there. I cook them in the morning. [INTERRUPTION]. | 5:10 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 5:16 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Anything. | 5:16 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 5:21 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Excuse me, Miss Mary. I'll put this back on you. There we go. Well, Miss Mary, did you ever know anybody who worked down at Cherry Point? The military base? | 5:25 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | My sons. Got one who worked at the military base in Cherry Point. I got two sons. One just retired from down there. Toby. | 5:41 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | From Cherry Point? | 5:52 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Uh-huh. | 5:52 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And my son worked there, on Government road. And he still working anyway. Because the one down there, he worked down there, I don't know how many years now. But a long time. But he retired from down there. | 5:59 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | That base, Cherry Point, was built about 50 years ago. Do you remember when the base was built during the Second World War? | 6:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I remember it. | 6:18 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did? What did people think about it when it was built? The Black people around here. | 6:23 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh, they was crazy about it. Everybody. I tried to get a job down there. But i didn't have a car, that's why I couldn't drive. Because my husband was working down there. He worked down there. But he died. Honey, but I tell you, they didn't want no Black people down there now. | 6:27 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | No? | 6:48 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. No. They would try to make it hard for you when you were Black. I know a lady told me one day, she went with some women. And one of the White ladies, told her said, "Why don't you draw your money out and travel?" Telling her what to do. She said, "Why don't you draw your money out and travel? Who you telling me what to do? Why don't you draw your money out and travel?" You know? Says, "Tellin' me what to do." No, they didn't want you down there. They didn't want no Black people down there. Don't want none down there now. But you got to hire Black people. I mean, most of a lot of places around here right now don't want no Black people. But that's the law. You got to hire all. But I know in the banks, they ain't used to have no Black people in the banks. But now they got to. Every one of the banks. Yeah. | 6:49 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did Black people get along with the Marines from Cherry Point? The Marines who would be in town? | 7:44 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, we'd get along with them fine here. We do, because we got some in our church. In that little girl lives over there, she's a cute little girl. She has them come to her house. And they'll be out there playing. She's a very nice little girl. She's just as smart as she could be. I wish she could get a car. She could if she would go about it right. Get a car. Because all her friends got cars and she don't have one. But she's smart. Smart little child. That she is. | 7:51 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What about the White Marines, Mrs. Perry? | 8:23 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, will have we, they come. Now, sometimes they have a service, servicemen program or something like that [indistinct]. But we got along with them all right. Yeah. Still do. And see, the Colored and White, I mean, marines, they meal together, go out together. | 8:26 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Now. | 8:47 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. Of course center of Jacksonville is kind of bad sometimes. I don't know. Jacksonville's a terrible place. There's always fighting going on. Somebody getting killed or beat up or something. | 8:48 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | But you were saying that when Cherry Point opened, and still today, they didn't want Black people working there. | 9:03 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. No. | 9:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did people know that they didn't want Black people working there? | 9:15 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | The way they treat them. That's one reason why. | 9:16 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did they treat them there? | 9:18 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I mean, the White folks the best jobs. Now, if there's a man, a Black man in New Bern, he killed two people? Or he shot at one. And he's in a stone building. And the bullet ricocheted and hit a lady. And the problem was with him, see. They didn't like him. He worked by his self. See, now down there, I don't know nothing about what they do down there, but I know that they have machines or something. Two people work together. And he worked by his self. They expected him to do as much work as two of them did, you know? And he just couldn't. But they was on his back. And they loved to tell the boss about you. | 9:19 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh, they'd tell the boss anything. And just like now my son told me, wasn't that long ago either, he said, "Mother," he say, "Working on machines and things, we had books down there." And said, "When I first got down there, a lot of them thought I wasn't doing nothing. Because it took me long." He said, "But I went by the book." And they was always telling the boss little things about him. You know, what he wasn't doing. | 10:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And he told them, he said, "I'm going by the book." And whatever he fixed, it was right. It didn't break down like the rest of them that was done by whoever. Whatever they worked on a little while was broke down. So, he said, oh well. Every now and then a boss would come to him and say something to him. But that boss man found out what kind of work he was doing. And he appreciated it. You know. Because he told him, he said, "Well, I feel where you's coming from." So, he raised his wages. You know. Yeah, you making good money. But he said, "I took my time." | 10:43 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And some Black people work down there he said and then some White man come see down there to give a White man a job. Whatever he's doing, you got to help him. As soon as he learn how, they'll raise him, they won't raise you. And so, he said, "Mother, you know what?" I said, "You tell him who it was." This man came there and he hadn't been there too long. And when he first came down there to the boss and say, "I didn't want to help him. See, because if I help him, he'll end up making more money than I make. [Indistinct]." | 11:20 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Then he say, "Ma, but I don't feel that." He said, "You always told me be nice to people." He said, "And I try to." He said, "And I'd take him under my wings and I'd help him." That's what he said. He said [indistinct], "I don't want to help him because he'll make more money than I do." And that's right. If that Black person already working, whatever they'll all doing, [indistinct] know what to do. They would hire the White man, and the White man, time he's been there about two, three months, a year. He gets a raise. Pay him more than they do pay the one who [indistinct] got there. That's what they do down at Cherry Point. Yeah, that's right. Of course, it's a little bit better than it used to be now. But they certain Black people. [indistinct] Black people [indistinct]. Some of us are, because they [indistinct] us. | 11:58 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | You were brought up in the church, Ms. Perry? | 12:54 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes, ma'am. All of my days. And I love it like today. | 12:55 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What church are you a member of now? | 13:04 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | That church over there on the highway. | 13:04 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What's the name of it? | 13:04 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Pilgrim Chapel. | 13:04 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Pilgrim Chapel. Okay. I met Mr. Boyd. He's a deacon there. Uh-huh. | 13:05 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. | 13:11 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And were you a member of that church as a child, also? Mm-hmm. | 13:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | The old folks say, I was reared up in that church. I was going to say raised, but it's all the same. | 13:22 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When were you baptized, ma'am? | 13:28 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | It's been a long time. I'll tell you I was 13. | 13:33 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | 13? | 13:39 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. So you just subtract 13 from 77. | 13:40 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 13:44 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | That's been a long time. Mm-hmm. | 13:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did you feel when you were baptized? | 13:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Felt good. Going into a new life. You change your way of living. Try to do the right thing. And when you get baptized, the devil, he's behind you then more than ever. That's the devil. Got to keep you doing. And I didn't do right always. And right now I do wrong. But I ask God to help me, because it's him that has kept me this far and brought me this far. And he's been good to me, honey. Because I helped raise a lot of my nieces and nephews. Their mother away and— | 13:53 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So your nieces and your nephews, as well as your own six children. | 14:30 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. So, I'm thankful. It was rough, but I made it, thank God. And I didn't sit down. Some people sit down and worry about what they don't have or what I never had. I never had that. That don't worry me. I ain't never had nothing much. | 14:33 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And your faith helped you with that. | 14:50 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. Honey, you believe it. Because you got to say, "You're my faith." Faith, honey. You just have faith in God. But now you got to try to live right. Even though we make mistakes. That's why we have to pray. Ask for forgiveness, you know? Because you got your mind just like you are, you're going to the top. You got your mind on doing the same thing and you keep on having faith that you will do, you will. You will. Because I know about that, honey. Because I've cried more times than a little. And all my children was in school. I don't know how I made it. I wasn't on no welfare. I didn't want no welfare money. I worked. And I worked. It was rough. Stayed with my mother, because I couldn't pay no rent. | 14:55 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What kinds of work were you doing then? You told me about some of it, but— | 15:44 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Dry cleaning. Back then I was working in a dry cleaning plant. [Indistinct], because my boss man was nice to me. I worked around. The last place I worked to, the man was so nice to me. And it wasn't never hard indistinct]. But anyway, I told him when I needed something, I would tell him. I told Bill [Indistinct]. I told him how many children I had. He said, "You got that many children?" I said, "Yeah." "And no help?" I said, "Nah-uh." And any amount of money I want, I go to him and ask, he'd give it to me. But I had to pay him back. But I paid him back. Now, honey, he would do whatever he could to help me. And I had him to go to the bank and get a note for me. He signed it. And I'd work. Go out, get the money, and bring it to him. But I paid it. I [indistinct], honey. I tried to be good. That's why being good pays off. | 15:50 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And this is a White man you— | 16:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. I always got along with everybody I worked with. Because I tried to obey them and I didn't curse none of them. Some people gets mad and ripping and raring. I didn't do no cursing, because I don't ever curse no how. | 16:52 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So, you told me that you left your husband. How long were you married to your first husband, ma'am? | 17:04 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I don't remember. | 17:13 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | 10 years, maybe? | 17:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Maybe longer than—I don't know. I think so. See, I have to think. How old my children was when I left? Yeah, about that long. | 17:21 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Your oldest child's about 10 or so when you left? | 17:33 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Just something like that. Yeah. | 17:35 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And you told me that you left because he was drinking too much and he was starting fighting. | 17:43 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | That's right. | 17:48 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you mean that he wanted to fight with you? | 17:51 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Me. Fighting. Big drinker. And wouldn't have work. Well, after I got me a job, sped out. I worked about a year or so. I just went home to my mother. Took my children. Yeah, I did. | 17:53 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did he try to hit you? | 18:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | He did. | 18:09 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | He did hit you? | 18:10 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. You know, I couldn't stand that man. And I'm trying to do the right thing. And trying to buy things for my children, because I always wanted my children to be nice and clean and have pretty clothes. But he wouldn't work. He'd work sometimes. And then he quit. And go out and get drunk. | 18:12 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. So, where did you go when you left him? | 18:37 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I went to my mother's house. | 18:39 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mother's house. | 18:39 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | With all them children. I stayed in one room. I had one big bedroom. One room. One big bed. I had two double beds in that room, and a double folding bed. We made it, though. Sure did. Yeah, we did. I went home to my mother. And I worked. I worked days and I worked nights, honey. I come home and wash and iron. I always did believe in washing. I washed and I iron nights. And I worked days. Sometimes I'd have a chance to work and go out and work and make a little extra money. So, when prom time came along, graduation. Lord. "Mother, I got to have $10. I got to have $15." And I didn't know where the money was coming from, but it came. It did. I had a rough time, Lord have mercy. But [indistinct] come along. I'm so thankful. I ain't had nothing to brag about, but I made it. And my children is grown and on their own. Now I'm not responsible for them. | 18:42 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 19:54 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I'm glad of that now. I ain't got nothing. My daughter, she retired from the telephone. She worked in New York. I got my baby. He's in Raleigh. He moved from New York to Raleigh, he and his wife. His wife, she had a good job, but she quit her job to move down here with him, because she was staying in New York. He was living in Raleigh, but she'd come down here about every two or three weeks. Well, then she quit her job. And she had a good job working in the bank in New York City. She worked there. She went to college. She actually left from her, up there. | 19:54 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Then she went back two years to get her master's. She finished. But honey, she's home, sitting down. And she is, and Fred working. But honey, I got something to be thankful for. I ain't got nothing bad, but I ain't got nothing. I just wish I had some more money so I could do some more to this old house. That's all. But anyway, I can stay here. And I got plenty of heat. I'm warm at night. Winter time. Home warm all day long. And I got enough air condition and fans to stay cool. So, I'm thankful. But I'm probably going to make it hot in here a long time, too. | 20:35 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Sounds like you've done a wonderful job with your family. | 21:16 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, honey, I'm thankful. I'm thankful. I'm really thankful and had my children and everybody else's children in the neighborhood. And I'd cook and feed them. I used to keep my two grandboys down summer [indistinct]. My son would come to take them home, and I had eight or nine children here, all up eating. And he said, "What you doing feeding these children?" I said, "Well, they're hungry." "You know you ain't got no business feeding all these peoples' children." But see, these folks down here, they ain't like me. My mother brought me up, she fed us. She fed me mornings and lunchtime. And soon as I come to school, I had a snack. And she cooked. And she didn't wait until no eight o'clock or nine o'clock to feed us. By six o'clock we done had our food. And that's the way I was brought up. And these people around here, they feed their family eight o'clock at night. And some of them don't eat no breakfast. | 21:19 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I used to go to vacation bible school when I was helping out down there. And I had to take sandwiches in my pocket that morning for those children. Some of them, their parents didn't feed them. And that's what they do when they wasn't working. They did make no preparation. That's right! I'm fat because I'm used to eating. Because we were full with my mother. What she could afford to give us, she gave it to us. Put that pillow right down on the floor. Anywhere. All right. | 22:16 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | These neighbors' children who you fed at night, why didn't they have parents? | 22:43 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They would feed them, but they would wait. Well see, I cooked before they did. You know how children is out playing. And if you eat an hour before they ate, they was around. I'd say, "Want some?" "Yeah, Miss Mary, give me some." Something like that. And you know, I would feed them. Yeah, they'll feed them now. Because the one lady over there on the side, that house right there, she's got 10 children. | 22:51 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Oh. | 23:16 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And her husband, he work, but he wasn't no good. He was a drunkard. Spent all his money. And that child made it. And now, she's doing fine. She got two of her children married. But the rest of them, girls, young girls there, they were wanting to go to school. The one, she went to school, oldest one, she's a nurse in [Indistinct] County. Well, the rest of them don't want to go to school. And honey, they got two cars. And there are three girls and two cars. And [indistinct] wanting to go to school, [indistinct] take up something. But they working. I don't know. They had such a hard time during coming up. But she done it most by herself. Her husband would drink. He would drink and throw away all his money he would make. And she'd be just as pitiful and nice. Sometimes she wouldn't have no soap. And I had sent her some kind, some hot wash. Didn't have no gas for the heat, no water. | 23:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But she took it, you know what I mean? She stayed there. Shoot, if I'd have married that man, I would have left him. Because I left my old no good husband. I left him. But she stayed right there. And those childern grown. Every one of her children is grown. And she got three small little girls. Two of them, they got their own car. That's nice. Yes, sir. It's really nice. | 24:14 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I'd like to ask you another couple things about church, maybe? | 24:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Uh-huh. | 24:47 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you were growing up, how did your family prepare for church? Prepare to go to church? | 24:48 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Like we do like now. They would eat breakfast. Get the bath. Put their clothes on. And go to church. We'd go to church, Sunday school, 11 o'clock service. And sometimes they'd have a three o'clock service. And sometimes at night. It was very seldom that we had all those many services in one Sunday. But sometimes they had special programs. And they had [indistinct] and things like that. But honey, we'd go. My children, they don't go. Not but my daughter. My sons, I went to church when they were growing up. They wouldn't go. Now, the son down here, he goes. That's because his wife, they're right beside her. So, he goes to church. | 24:56 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did you do your hair to go to church when you were a little girl? | 25:47 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | We had a straighten comb. I straightened it. Every night. I had it dressed last week. My hair's thick. It's think. But I cuts it off every year. But I ain't going to cut it this year. But I've got to go get to the beauty parlor. But I'm not going, because I'm going North, Saturday. Going to the beach. And I'm going to just comb it and put it up. | 25:51 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Your hair is nice and thick and curly. | 26:14 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | It's thick. Well, the lady fixed it. I thought she was doing something. I went down in country. But it's longer than this. But my hair, it needs washing. It needs washing. And dry it up. But when I straighten it, it hangs down there. But anyway, honey. We'd go to church just like now, just like we did when I was younger. And we have a good time. We got a club in our church. A cooking club. We cook. We serve the food, fix some nice food, too. We have so much going on. Now we getting ready right now to have people from VFW, four buses. Going to cost a lot of money. And we going to have the food catered. Too much for us to cook. | 26:17 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | A lot of people. I heard about that from Mr. Boyd, too. | 27:15 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. He's a deacon. And he's sick and he's in pain. But he's out there every morning. Sunday morning he's there. He's sick. He looks like it, too. | 27:17 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 27:28 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 27:30 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Was your mother involved in any of these clubs when you were a little girl? Church clubs or other clubs? | 27:33 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, my daddy was a deacon. | 27:38 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Your daddy was a deacon. | 27:40 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | My mother was a mother of the church. You know, they got mothers of the church deacons. Ushers and choir members. We got three choirs. Four with the little children. And we used to have Sunday school choir. But we got a new building, we don't have a piano in there in that new building. They have Sunday school there. Because we got a Sunday school room now. Yeah, they went to church. My folks were good church members, honey. And they loved the Lord. They really did. | 27:41 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you sing in the choir when you were growing up? | 28:14 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes, ma'am. Singing in the choir right now. Yeah. | 28:16 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So you've been singing a long time. What's your favorite hit? | 28:20 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Amazing Grace. | 28:23 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, I like that one. | 28:24 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | It's beautiful. | 28:31 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 28:31 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Do you go to church often? Or you don't have time? | 28:31 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I don't go to church. | 28:33 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | You don't? | 28:33 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | This summer I've been going to church, because the people who we visit, we often go to church with them. But I wasn't raised in the church. | 28:34 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | All righty. | 28:42 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So, I don't. I don't usually go. | 28:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, honey. It'd be a good thing. I'm telling you right now, because I know from experience how good God is. And I see you is determined. You're going to make it. But see, you need somebody to help you. And that's God Almighty. You know, if you not been told about him or ain't studied about him like you ought to do, because you got a bible. Here's my bible. I got about six of them. You study this bible right here and it'll tell you, boy, do you need God in your life. And that's why we are supposed to do help one another. Okay? All these different chapters. | 28:48 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Honey you need him, because honey, he's always there when you need him. Because I know, because I'm telling you, sometimes I owed this one, I owed that one. And I said, "Lord, have mercy." Said, "Where that money coming from? I ain't got no money to pay all those people off." But honey, I ended up paying everyone off. And a lot of time, we don't know where it's coming from. You know, God is just so good. | 29:22 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | But you got to go to church to understand it. It would be nice. [Indistinct] is nice. If it weren't for him, all these many years I been here, and God keeps me up. And so many people my age is in the home. That's right. Can't even walk. And now they taking peoples' legs off. Because one man crawls over there, took both of his legs off. And another's going to take his off. And a lady over that way, she ain't got no legs. So, but, that come from being hard-headed when you got sugar. Same thing if you don't eat— | 29:44 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | From diabetes. | 30:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. You know, we call it diabetes. It's diabetes. But if you obey the doctor, you can make it. But that man, that neighbor over there, he had it a long time. The doctor told him. He wouldn't even go to the doctor until last year he had a wreck driving a car. Couldn't half see. And so, he's suffering. He looks bad, too. Yes, siree. But anyway, honey, I'm used to going to church now, honey. I love the Lord, I declare. I do. | 30:18 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I can see that. | 30:50 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Because honey, he has been so good to me. And I sit back, I look back at my life, where I come from, and how I brought them children up by myself. I didn't have no welfare to help me. Some people think there's something nice. I guess I enjoy this more. I used to tell one lady, oh, she was always bragging. I told her I didn't want no charity. I don't. I don't want nobody give me nothing. I got here and a worked day and night. It wasn't easy. Sometimes I had to cry. I'd have so much on me. But I made it, so. I'm thankful. Yeah, I am. Yes, sir. So, what else you want to know now? I'm getting hungry now. | 30:52 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. So, how old were you when you started going to the beauty parlor, ma'am? | 31:40 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | When I started working and I got enough money. | 31:43 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you started working? So, you were— | 31:46 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I'd go to the hairdresser. | 31:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | —in your 20s? | 31:46 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 31:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 31:46 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I went usually [indistinct] all the time. I mean, it was that easy to keep, you know? But honey, I go to the hairdresser right now every once a month now. Because since I don't get paid every week, or every other week, I go once a month. But it's been so hot and it needs to be done. But I'm going to the beach, so I'm not going to have it done until next month. Wait until it's a little bit cooler. Because it grows back so fast, and it's knotty. It's so thick back there. It never used to [indistinct] growing up. We got straightening comb. We'd do our grease with the straightening comb and curl the hair. That was the style then. You know. | 31:54 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What was it like having your hair combed with the straightening comb? | 32:45 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | It was nice, as long as it didn't stick to your skin and burn you. Because that lady worked on my hair last, little girl out in the country, that girl burnt me up. She don't do enough. But they charge $20. Because there's some of them with all these wavy curls, that costs a lot. I used to wear those, until my hair's turning gray. That White would turn it with the chemicals. So, I had to stop. I just had a lady that straighten it out and curl it. That's all. That's it, honey. | 32:49 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | In your family, did all of you have about the same kind of hair? Or did you have different kinds of hair? | 33:27 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | All of us had the same kind of hair. | 33:31 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Same kind of hair? | 33:31 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Mm-hmm. My mother's hair was kind of soft. And my mother, at her age, my hair looked just like hers. I used to fix her hair. Every Sunday morning I had to fix her hair. Because it was she used to sweat in her head. And you sweat in your head, that makes your hair look wrong. Yes, sir. | 33:34 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you started going to the beauty parlor, how did you choose which beauty parlor to go to? | 34:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | The best one. | 34:07 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | The best one? | 34:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 34:09 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did you find out which one was the best one? | 34:10 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, in our community, you'll find out who's good and who's not good, you know? So, this lady been doing my hair lately, I got to put her down, because she's in a hurry all the time. She wash your hair, she wet your dress all up. So, I got to put her down. But I want somebody that I can depend on. Somebody going to do it nice. I don't want a lot of curls no more like I used to have. I used to have a head full of pretty curls, but I don't care for that no more. But I want my hair to be dressed still. Now, I don't want my hair looking bad because I'm an old lady. | 34:11 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I don't know about that. Do you remember the names of some of the beauticians you used to go to? | 34:56 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 35:04 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What were some of the names you used to go to? | 35:05 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Some of them was Dot's Beauty Parlor. | 35:10 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Dot's Beauty Parlor. | 35:14 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Dot. D-O-T-S. That was in [Indistinct]. I went there a lot. Well, I went a long time. But Dot's Beauty Parlor. She was good. And I had another lady named Mary Hyde. She didn't have a beauty parlor. She just did it in her kitchen. | 35:16 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | In her kitchen? | 35:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Uh-huh. Yeah. | 35:36 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | How did she let people know that she would do hair in her kitchen? | 35:39 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | She would broadcast. And it was Vail's. Vail's Beauty Parlor. V-A-I-L-S. That was in [Indistinct]. And that's the last one I went to. I didn't go out to every one of them, because I always went to the ones—when I found someone that would do my hair like I wanted, I always stayed with them, you know? | 35:45 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did your friends go to the same beauty parlor? | 36:07 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Mm-hmm. | 36:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did you tell each other about it? | 36:15 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We'd go to the same beauty parlor. Of course, some people would never go. Some people fix their own hair, but I always liked to keep my hair looking good. Because it don't look good now, but I go to the beauty parlor. Because this time of year, anybody do good. They keep any kind of hair, hot as it be. | 36:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | It's so hot. | 36:34 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I don't even worry about it. But now I got, see on Sunday when I come home, or Saturday night, I'm throwing my hair up. I guess I could just put it up there and just pin it around right there to keep it back. Anyway, I'm going to church and then after that, I'm going to sleep. | 36:36 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | When you first started going to the beauty parlor, what kinds of things did ladies talk about in the beauty parlor? | 37:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Anything and everything. Just like women do in your beauty parlor if you go. You don't go though, do you? | 37:06 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Not very often, no. | 37:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | You don't need to. If I had hair like you, I wouldn't go either. Any and everything. Preaching, teachers, what happening over there in [indistinct], or whatever going on in the world they talks about. They just gossip. That's all. Everywhere. And those say they don't—some say the White don't gossip. But the White gossip more than the color. Like I told the girl, I said, "Don't tell me [indistinct]." I said, "They ain't going to tell you their business, but they'll tell their own." Yeah, they gossip. I know they do. I know I've been around with White women. Because I know one lady, Lord, I love her. She was just—now, I love everybody. But she was just special. And she was telling me about this. And you know what? I'm going to tell you right now, White women run around more than Colored womens do. | 37:14 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | They run around more? | 38:05 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes. | 38:07 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I know so, I mean I worked with some of them. I mean, and I know they were. By the time they got to the job, went right on out with the boss. Next day. | 38:08 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I thought, "That's awful." But he was just like a dog. You know how men are. | 38:17 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 38:21 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And he suffered for it, too. He died. He killed himself about a month ago. Honey, this girl was with this man, a second date. And that same man, the same lady, they rent a place right now. He used to go with her, too. And I know another girl, what's her name? Dot. She was nice looking too. Pretty shape. But even her. She'd been around and I know it. But I don't say nothing to them about it, but I know they's running around. And this little one live there now, she got a husband. And she [indistinct] around here. I used to know the days when they'd go out. I didn't say nothing to nobody, because I use my eyes. And I listens, too. Yeah. | 38:24 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Did you ever hear about, or know of, Black people and White people going out together? | 39:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would go, on that job, yeah, we had parties together. Yeah. | 39:25 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What about women and men seeing each other? | 39:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. It's going on. But I'm trying to think of anybody—oh, yeah. Girl right down over here a bit, she married a White guy. And he had two wives. He had Black wife, his first one. She died. And he married another. Now they married each other. And my nephew in California, he had a White girlfriend. | 39:40 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What about in the days before the Civil Rights Movement? When you were younger, in the 30s and the 40s and the 50s? Did you hear about it then? | 40:05 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. | 40:14 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Yeah? | 40:14 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Always been going on. Yes, sir. Because I know there was a lady, she's a name, Ms. O'Hara. My daddy used to wait for her husband. She loved him. Colored man. My dad was so scared. He said, "That woman said she [indistinct]. I'm scared. That man going to catch her." Yeah. Some of them like Colored men better than they do White, in the bed, sexually. Yeah, that's been going on. Yes, sir. They marry to them. | 40:15 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Did used to marry to them, though. | 40:57 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, every now and then, you might hear of one marrying a Colored woman when I was younger. Every now and then. Yeah. | 40:57 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And when they were together sexually, would they be open about this? | 41:10 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. Mm-mm. No. Well, maybe they did. It's kind of where you lived. That's another thing too, according to where you live. Because I mean, in the North, a lot of places, people do things like that a lot. But according to where you live, but yeah, they talk about it. And I know some people coming here from Boston, the other week, this guy met this White— and she come back. She comes out over here for him. And his people live right with him. And she act just like you or I. A lot of them are just like you. I mean, they're nice and friendly and crazy about our cooking now. Yes. They are nice people. And [indistinct]. She comes down here. | 41:14 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Were Black men ever afraid, though? I mean, you hear about things like— | 42:10 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They used to be. | 42:18 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Sorry? | 42:19 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They used to be scared. But they ain't scared no more. | 42:23 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | No? But can you tell me about when they used to be scared? | 42:25 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | If you were coming out, some White women was at these Colored men. Run them down, run them down. You had to do something. That's right. And they were scared. They was. I heard them say so. Yeah. When White women is crazy about Black men, yeah. | 42:25 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | And why were they scared? | 42:44 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | They didn't want their husband to know it. Didn't want nobody to know, so they don't get in some trouble. Every night they'd mingle together now. | 42:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | What kind of trouble did they used to be afraid of? | 42:56 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | The law. Okay? Because I know some of them have been killed by even looking at a White woman. A Black man. But now they don't care, because they mingle. I can tell you this, right now, you see a White woman and a Black man going down the street in Newburn, and they pass people, they pass them and they'll turn around just like this and look. They just seen them. They pass by and then they look. Look back. What you looking back for? They're together. Yeah, they mingle down here. Whole lot of mingling down here. Yeah. | 42:59 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Before people started being so open about mingling, did you ever hear, in Newburn, about any ugly things? Like lynchings? That kind of thing? | 43:30 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | No. But some been killed. | 43:42 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Killed? | 43:44 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And they don't know, but there'd be some White person would kill them. That's right. They did it. Yeah. I haven't heard that. Maybe years ago. You been to Ms. Gavin's house? | 43:46 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Not yet, but somebody told me to go and see her. | 44:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | She'll tell you everything, because she can remember. She knew everything. Ms. Gavin. | 44:02 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 44:09 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And she can't remember now like she used to, but honey, she knows everything. And everybody go there to her to talk. Because you know anything in the world I can think of, Annie can think of. | 44:09 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | She has a store, too, doesn't she? | 44:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Big store right there on the corner. It ain't far from here. | 44:21 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry? | 44:25 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | It's not too far from here. | 44:26 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. | 44:28 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. You can go right on from that same road. Right on the back of that big building, right on around there and on the corner. Right from here. All them stop lights and keep right on around. And this building there, it's the Jehovah people. And you go right on around. Right on around. And she lives in the big building. It's big. And the brick, store is there. Ain't got no front. There's no more on the steps. That's where she stays at. So, in case you want to know, when you get ready to come back. Because you got to go back. If you go to her store, you got to go back this way to get to the highway, because see the hair place that go across, they closed it up. Four people got killed out there. | 44:29 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | That's a big road to have that. | 45:18 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. You ought to see it on Sundays. You been down to the beach since you've been here. | 45:18 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Not yet. Thinking about going this weekend. | 45:22 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well. | 45:26 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah, go ahead, honey. The cars are so heavy out there. Whew, I'm scared of that highway now, because it's so bad. | 45:27 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 45:32 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yes, sir. | 45:34 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | You were so nice. | 45:37 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. | 0:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved—I think that's right—that saved a race like me. I once was lost, but now I am found, was blind but now I see. Is that enough? | 0:01 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | If you'd like to go on, I'd love to hear more. | 0:01 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I got to find that book, my songbook. I got so much junk here. Wait, I'll get it—I want to do it right. I should have got this out before I started to sing. All right. Here it is. (Singing). I'll sing one more verse now. | 1:10 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 1:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | (Singing). That's it. | 1:13 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you, Mrs. Perry. Thank you so much. | 1:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | You know, I thought you was a Black girl. | 1:13 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry? | 1:13 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | I thought you was a Black girl. You kind of work like a Black girl. | 3:01 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | On the phone? Really? | 3:04 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Uh-huh. | 3:05 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, well, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you there. | 3:06 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. Yeah. I thought you was a Black girl. I thought you—[INTERRUPTION]. | 3:09 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | It's that I sound different sometimes because I'm Canadian. | 3:17 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh. | 3:20 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So, when I'm down here, I try to talk like the people I meet so I won't sound so strange. | 3:20 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh, no, we're used to— | 3:27 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | The people I meet are Black. | 3:27 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Uh-huh. | 3:28 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | So, maybe I sound like that on the phone. | 3:28 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Oh, you sound like a Black woman, but it's nice meeting you, though. | 3:32 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, you sound like a Black woman. | 3:34 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | And you're just as nice. | 3:34 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you very much. | 3:34 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. I know I won't see you no more because I'm [indistinct 00:03:43]. I was glad to [indistinct 00:03:45]. Whatever you go over, honey, try to make it sound kind of educational-like. I'm so dumb, and then I didn't knew I forgot it. | 3:37 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Well, you have a lot of knowledge, Mrs. Perry, and you shared some of it with me, and I appreciate it. | 3:57 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Well, sometime, I shared what I know, and, sometime, I'm so forgetful, but I try to hang in there. I pray that the Lord don't let me go crazy because when bringing up children like I have, no help, it's been rough, but I'm thankful, honey. I made it. My children. [INTERRUPTION]. | 4:02 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 4:23 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | She's cute, too. She's nice. | 4:27 |
| Rhonda Mawhood | Your daughter? | 4:30 |
| Mary Hamm Perry | Yeah. All my daughter, I love. I got three, honey. I love all of them, but them grandchildren, they expects money, money, money, money. I got to send Lisa, one I say went to school, this her last year in high— | 4:30 |
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