Tape 35 - Unemployment Figures Monetary Developments, Interest Rates, Economic Forecast
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Interviewer | Hello, this is Instructional Dynamic, | 0:02 |
inviting you to another of our | 0:04 | |
biweekly interviews with Doctor Milton Friedman, | 0:06 | |
Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. | 0:09 | |
We are taking this interview on Wednesday, October 8th. | 0:12 | |
Welcome back to this country, Doctor Friedman, | 0:16 | |
I hope you have had a chance to catch up | 0:19 | |
with what has been happening here in your absence. | 0:22 | |
It is now a month since you reported to our subscribers. | 0:25 | |
Would you like to bring them up to date | 0:29 | |
on your views about current economic conditions? | 0:30 | |
First, what is your reaction to the jump | 0:34 | |
in the unemployment rate from | 0:36 | |
3.5% in August to 4% in September? | 0:37 | |
Friedman | My reaction is that | 0:43 |
that it's about time. | 0:46 | |
That is to look at all of the other indicators | 0:48 | |
of economic activity there have been many signs accumulating | 0:51 | |
that the economy is slowing down, | 0:56 | |
that the monetary restriction is taking effect, | 0:58 | |
that we are heading into a period of slower economic growth. | 1:01 | |
Yet, until the month of September, | 1:07 | |
none of these seem to have shown up | 1:10 | |
very strikingly in the unemployment figures. | 1:12 | |
Unemployment has been hovering around 3.5%. | 1:15 | |
There had been some signs in the slow down | 1:19 | |
and the increase in employment, | 1:21 | |
that is employment had gone up less rapidly than earlier. | 1:24 | |
But this had been counteracted by a | 1:28 | |
smaller rate of rise in the labor force | 1:30 | |
so that the percentage unemployed had stayed the same. | 1:33 | |
September figures show a dramatic increase | 1:36 | |
and for that reason one wants to be a little cherry | 1:40 | |
in placing too much emphasis on them. | 1:43 | |
It must be recalled that the particular number | 1:46 | |
on percentage unemployed is capable | 1:48 | |
of being a very volatile number. | 1:52 | |
It's the difference between two very large totals. | 1:54 | |
On the one hand, the total pert number of persons | 1:57 | |
in the labor force, that is people who are | 2:00 | |
either unemployed or are seeking a job. | 2:02 | |
On the other hand, the number of people who are employed. | 2:05 | |
So you've got a total of something like 75 million people | 2:09 | |
who are employed in the agriculture, | 2:14 | |
non-agriculture industries, and others bring in | 2:16 | |
a half million in agriculture so that all totaled, | 2:20 | |
in September, 1969, there were | 2:23 | |
over 78 million people unemployed. | 2:25 | |
The total labor force, | 2:28 | |
the total civilian labor force, | 2:29 | |
if we leave out the people who are in the armed forces, | 2:32 | |
was about 81 million. | 2:34 | |
So when we speak of unemployment, | 2:36 | |
we're talking about the difference | 2:39 | |
between 81 million and 78 million. | 2:41 | |
In addition, allowance has to be made | 2:44 | |
for seasonal movements which further adds | 2:48 | |
to the error in these figures. | 2:50 | |
Also, the total number of people | 2:52 | |
recorded as unemployed in the | 2:55 | |
seasonally adjusted figures before September | 3:00 | |
was 3 million 2 hundred and 32 thousand. | 3:03 | |
And it should be emphasized further, | 3:06 | |
that this number is an estimate | 3:08 | |
built up on a small sample. | 3:10 | |
So for all of these reasons, I have never felt | 3:12 | |
one should put enormous emphasis | 3:14 | |
on small changes in unemployment figures. | 3:16 | |
And I would not, myself, be inclined | 3:19 | |
to put undo emphasis on this particular | 3:22 | |
dramatic jump from three and a half to four percent. | 3:25 | |
Except for the fact that in the first place, | 3:28 | |
it is the kind of reaction I have been anticipating | 3:31 | |
as my subscribers know, for months now. | 3:34 | |
In the second place, it tends to be confirmed | 3:37 | |
by a wide range of other evidence. | 3:41 | |
Housing of course, construction | 3:45 | |
has been slow for some time past. | 3:47 | |
The stock market has, of course, been declining. | 3:49 | |
Retail sails have been growing at a very sluggish pace, | 3:54 | |
the rate of growth in the past few months has been | 3:59 | |
less than for any other pair of months back for some time. | 4:01 | |
Inventories have been rising relevant to sales. | 4:05 | |
The whole collection of series | 4:10 | |
summarized under the leading indicator, | 4:12 | |
collection of leading indicators, | 4:16 | |
have shown weakness that they have been going down, | 4:19 | |
they have been turning down since | 4:22 | |
something like March or April. | 4:24 | |
And, I understand, that even these figures may | 4:27 | |
understate the evidence for contraction | 4:30 | |
because, one thing that has been holding | 4:34 | |
some of the leading indicators up, | 4:36 | |
is particular strength in metals and metal prices. | 4:38 | |
And this strength, in turn, seems to reflect | 4:43 | |
not a domestic development in the United States, | 4:46 | |
but the fact that you are world wide, | 4:49 | |
in many countries having something of a boom. | 4:51 | |
Germany has of course been experiencing a very rapid boom. | 4:55 | |
Japan, from which we just returned, | 4:59 | |
is very clearly in the midst of a boom. | 5:01 | |
France has been having a rapid increase in physical | 5:05 | |
output, indeed this is part of the problem that | 5:10 | |
France now faces in trying to make the evaluation | 5:13 | |
that is recently engaged and affected. | 5:16 | |
So in many parts of the world, | 5:18 | |
you are having a boom which has been increasing | 5:20 | |
with demand from metal and metal products. | 5:22 | |
And this in turn, has been raising prices. | 5:24 | |
NASA, the steel industry in this country, | 5:27 | |
seems to be showing much more strength than | 5:30 | |
one would expect from domestic conditions alone. | 5:32 | |
This is because foreign imports | 5:34 | |
of steel has been going down, | 5:37 | |
and US exports of steel have been going up. | 5:38 | |
So as I say, if we look at the picture as a whole. | 5:41 | |
Not in any single number, it tends to confirm | 5:45 | |
the kind of story told by unemployment statistics | 5:49 | |
and, as I indicated, the surprise to me | 5:54 | |
was that unemployment did not show this up earlier. | 5:57 | |
And I take this large jump this month | 6:01 | |
as sort of a catching up of the forces | 6:04 | |
as signs that perhaps that has been some | 6:06 | |
hoarding of labor, that is, given the | 6:10 | |
acute place short labor market for the past | 6:13 | |
year or so employers have been rather reluctant | 6:15 | |
to let workers go even though | 6:19 | |
the need for them was declining. | 6:21 | |
So that all in all, | 6:25 | |
the simplest summery is to say, | 6:29 | |
that things are really proceeding on schedule. | 6:32 | |
That is to say, as my subscribers know, | 6:35 | |
I have been anticipating that sometime | 6:38 | |
within the third quarter of this year, | 6:40 | |
about the third quarter of this year, | 6:42 | |
you would have a distinct swelling up | 6:43 | |
in the rate of economic growth | 6:45 | |
and a movement toward a decline. | 6:46 | |
The turning point, it now looks, will in retrospect | 6:49 | |
be set in something like August, | 6:53 | |
perhaps even as early as July. | 6:57 | |
I might know that this statement that I'm making | 6:59 | |
shows how, what the difficulty is in conducting | 7:02 | |
current economic policy on a highly sensitive | 7:06 | |
discretionary basis involving changes from day to day. | 7:10 | |
Here it is, October, and I am saying | 7:14 | |
that very probably in retrospect, | 7:17 | |
we will date the turn as in August. | 7:20 | |
But it was not possible to know that in August. | 7:23 | |
It's not even possible to be certain of it now in October, | 7:25 | |
although it's two months later. | 7:29 | |
All of the figures will not be in for several months. | 7:32 | |
As you know, the figures originally put out | 7:35 | |
often are revised later and one of the characteristic | 7:38 | |
features of turning points in business, | 7:42 | |
of upper turning points in particular, | 7:44 | |
I'm not sure, I haven't looked at this | 7:46 | |
from a point of view of lower turning points. | 7:48 | |
But in upper turning points in business, | 7:50 | |
one characteristic feature | 7:51 | |
is that subsequence, statistical revisions of | 7:53 | |
series tend to revise them downward. | 7:56 | |
Thus, we had this experience with industrial production, | 7:58 | |
which on revision was revised downward | 8:01 | |
for, I believe it was the month of July. | 8:04 | |
That's why I say it's very hard to know | 8:09 | |
when a turning point has come or | 8:12 | |
to know for several months thereafter. | 8:13 | |
This is one of the reasons that I have always been in favor | 8:15 | |
of a steady policy rather than a policy that was designed | 8:18 | |
to meet each minor turning of economic conditions. | 8:22 | |
Interviewer | What about the monetary developments? | 8:28 |
Friedman | Well I am sorry to have to report | 8:31 |
that the monetary developments have shown | 8:33 | |
no improvements whatsoever since I last talked | 8:35 | |
last made one of these tapes. | 8:40 | |
As of that time, I was very much concerned | 8:42 | |
about the possibility of overkill. | 8:45 | |
You will recall that the Federal Reserve Board | 8:49 | |
issued some revisions of the statistics | 8:51 | |
which seemed to make the situation look | 8:53 | |
a little less severe. | 8:56 | |
At the time, I pointed out, that there were further | 8:59 | |
revisions in the form of new seasonals that were coming. | 9:02 | |
And that, after examining all the evidence, | 9:06 | |
I stopped by my original position, | 9:08 | |
that you were likened, the the Fed had in fact | 9:10 | |
turned to a tighter monitoring policy. | 9:14 | |
By now, the Fed has issued the new revisions, | 9:17 | |
we have data for a considerably longer period of time, | 9:20 | |
and there is, as of this point, | 9:24 | |
absolutely no doubt whatsoever | 9:26 | |
that there has been a significant and severe further | 9:28 | |
tightening of monitory policy in the past few months. | 9:32 | |
The only question, the only points that are in question | 9:36 | |
at all, about which there can be any doubt, | 9:40 | |
is a precise date of the turn | 9:44 | |
and the precise magnitude of the turn. | 9:46 | |
The new figures, for example, | 9:49 | |
make it look as if, | 9:51 | |
the newly revised figures suggest that perhaps | 9:54 | |
the initial turn to a somewhat tighter | 9:57 | |
monitory policy came not in December, | 9:59 | |
as I have been saying all along, | 10:02 | |
but in early January. | 10:04 | |
There were some signs to that effect, | 10:07 | |
although on the whole I am still inclined | 10:09 | |
to stick to the December date. | 10:11 | |
Similarly, the next turn to a still tighter policy, | 10:14 | |
may not have come as early as April, | 10:18 | |
as I have been arguing before, | 10:20 | |
it looks from the new figures | 10:22 | |
as if it came in the middle of May. | 10:23 | |
But again, there is very little | 10:26 | |
to choose between April and May. | 10:28 | |
The most important, the most striking fact, | 10:30 | |
is that as of today, | 10:34 | |
the quantity of money however measured, | 10:36 | |
by which every definition one wants to look at, | 10:39 | |
is less than it was in the middle of May. | 10:42 | |
So that over the period from the middle of May, | 10:46 | |
which is four months now, over four months | 10:48 | |
there has been no net monitory expansion whatsoever. | 10:51 | |
For the period, from December to May, | 10:56 | |
the rate of rise of the stock of money | 11:01 | |
was somewhere around four the five percent. | 11:03 | |
That is a rate of rise which, it seems to me, | 11:06 | |
is desirable from a long run point of view | 11:09 | |
and on the basis of these figures, | 11:11 | |
I would be rather more approving | 11:14 | |
of what monitory policy actually was | 11:18 | |
during the first four or five months | 11:21 | |
than I had earlier. | 11:24 | |
My standard statements up until | 11:24 | |
these latest figures came out, | 11:27 | |
was that monitory policy up until April and May | 11:30 | |
had been pretty good but if anything, | 11:34 | |
had even then been a little bit on the tight side. | 11:36 | |
I would now revise that, I would say | 11:38 | |
the monitory expansion of up until about April | 11:40 | |
or May was just about right. | 11:44 | |
But since then, it has clearly been too little. | 11:47 | |
You have had a monitory | 11:50 | |
growth for four months of roughly 0%, | 11:53 | |
as I say this is the same whether you look | 11:57 | |
at currency plus demand deposits alone. | 12:00 | |
It's been a sharp decline if you look at | 12:02 | |
currency plus demand deposits plus | 12:04 | |
all commercial bank time deposits. | 12:06 | |
But as I have repeatedly emphasized, | 12:08 | |
those figures are misleading because | 12:10 | |
the decline in savings has largely been | 12:13 | |
a book keeping matter offset by | 12:16 | |
the rise of other liabilities. | 12:18 | |
If you look at currency plus all deposits | 12:20 | |
minus savings, that too has been | 12:23 | |
declining but at a fairly slow rate, | 12:27 | |
at something like about 1% per year. | 12:30 | |
So as I say, whichever monitory total you look at, | 12:32 | |
for something like four months now, | 12:35 | |
we have had essentially zero expansion. | 12:37 | |
Such a, such a policy, if continued much longer, | 12:40 | |
is bound to bring a very severe reaction. | 12:44 | |
The one favorable feature of the rapid rise | 12:48 | |
of unemployment this month is that perhaps | 12:52 | |
it will shock the monitory authorities | 12:54 | |
into recognizing that they have gone too far. | 12:56 | |
Perhaps it will bring them to their senses | 12:59 | |
and lead them to resume an expansion | 13:02 | |
in the quantity of money at a somewhat faster pace. | 13:07 | |
Some, I might go on a little bit | 13:11 | |
about this point in one respect, | 13:13 | |
I have encountered many people who, | 13:17 | |
discussing with me my views on the monitory situation say, | 13:20 | |
why do you make so much of a fuss about | 13:24 | |
whether it happens to be 0% or 4, 4 and a half percent? | 13:26 | |
Isn't that a minor difference? | 13:30 | |
And they go on to say is 0% really so terrible? | 13:34 | |
The worst that will mean, they say, | 13:38 | |
that normal income will not change the GMP | 13:41 | |
will go to a zero rate of growth. | 13:44 | |
What of that? | 13:46 | |
Well, there is several points that I would like to make to, | 13:48 | |
to expand on my views on them in the first place. | 13:50 | |
Let's suppose you just took a | 13:56 | |
percentage point for percentage point. | 13:58 | |
Suppose you said that the effect of a 0% | 13:59 | |
rate of growth in money | 14:02 | |
was the GMP was gonna go up at zero dollars per quarter. | 14:04 | |
Now, you recognize I'm not talking | 14:09 | |
about what we'll have to right now, | 14:11 | |
but what we'll have to next year. | 14:13 | |
We're talking about a process which has a lag | 14:14 | |
of six to nine to twelve months. | 14:18 | |
Let me digress to point out | 14:21 | |
that if indeed the peak turns out to have been | 14:23 | |
in July or August as I said before, | 14:27 | |
then this episode is precisely on schedule. | 14:30 | |
A turn from December, a turn in the rate | 14:33 | |
of change in money in December | 14:37 | |
would mean a lag of eight to nine months. | 14:39 | |
As I have said over and over again | 14:43 | |
on the average over past periods, | 14:45 | |
the lag has been set between six and nine months. | 14:48 | |
So this particular episode is right on schedule | 14:51 | |
despite all the talk about how nothing is happening. | 14:53 | |
That merely reflects impatience, | 14:57 | |
and a lack of perspective, a lack of use of past data. | 14:58 | |
Well, to go back, | 15:02 | |
what I'm talking about now is again | 15:04 | |
something about six to nine months. | 15:06 | |
If the turn came in May to a 0% rate of growth, | 15:09 | |
and if that were continued, | 15:12 | |
then it would start having its | 15:14 | |
most significant effects on the economy | 15:16 | |
about six to nine months after that | 15:22 | |
which would mean about the first quarter of next year. | 15:24 | |
And again, to avoid misunderstanding, | 15:28 | |
I say the most significant effects. | 15:31 | |
Of course what happens today has some effects to that. | 15:32 | |
Learn this very deal and they build up, | 15:35 | |
the main impact does not come for | 15:37 | |
something like six to nine months. | 15:40 | |
Well now, let's suppose you had a | 15:42 | |
0% rate of growth from now on, | 15:43 | |
and let's suppose that all this meant | 15:46 | |
was a 0% rate of growth of nominal GMP. | 15:47 | |
That is, to itself, would be serious enough | 15:53 | |
because that, because prices are gonna continue to rise. | 15:56 | |
There is a hangover, a carry over effect, an inertia effect. | 16:01 | |
Wage contracts, price arrangements, | 16:06 | |
are now being made for next year | 16:08 | |
by people who anticipate continued increase in prices. | 16:10 | |
We shall be very fortunate indeed if the | 16:14 | |
rate of price rises down to 4% by the end of the year | 16:16 | |
to 3, 3 and a half percent by | 16:20 | |
the middle of the first quarter. | 16:23 | |
But under those circumstances, | 16:24 | |
a 0% rise in nominal income means that real | 16:26 | |
income is declining at three to four percent. | 16:30 | |
Moreover, since our potential is going up, | 16:34 | |
population is growing, capital stock is growing, | 16:38 | |
this would mean that instead of meeting our | 16:41 | |
potential of 4% per year or something like that, | 16:45 | |
we would have a decline at 3, 4%, | 16:48 | |
and therefore you would have a discrepancy | 16:50 | |
of something like seven, seven and a half percent | 16:52 | |
between the actual rate of change of output, | 16:57 | |
and the potential rate of change of output. | 16:59 | |
This is not by any means an eligible discrepancy, | 17:01 | |
it is something like what happened in 1958 contraction, | 17:04 | |
when unemployment at that time rose to 7%. | 17:08 | |
It rose from a slightly higher base, | 17:13 | |
so that may not be a fair picture from this time, | 17:15 | |
but it gives an idea the order of magnitude. | 17:17 | |
But that isn't the whole of the story, | 17:20 | |
that is | 17:23 | |
on what I would regard is the most favorable circumstances, | 17:25 | |
because there is one element of | 17:28 | |
the picture that I have left out. | 17:29 | |
If the economy does in fact shift | 17:32 | |
from an inflationary environment | 17:34 | |
to a less inflationary environment, | 17:37 | |
if instead of prices rising at 7 to 8%, | 17:39 | |
or 6 to 7%, | 17:42 | |
they come down to rising at 3 to 4% | 17:44 | |
and it looks as if they're coming down still more, | 17:46 | |
this will alter the demands for money. | 17:49 | |
When prices are rising at 6 or 7% | 17:52 | |
and interest rates are 9%, | 17:56 | |
it is expensive to hold cash balances. | 17:58 | |
And consequently there is a tendency | 18:01 | |
for people to try to reduce the level | 18:02 | |
of cash balances relative to income. | 18:05 | |
That is to say, velocity of circulation goes up. | 18:07 | |
But this works the other way as well. | 18:11 | |
If the rate of price rise goes from 6 or 7% to 3 or 4%, | 18:13 | |
if interest rates go from 9% | 18:19 | |
to something like 6% as they | 18:21 | |
would under those circumstances, | 18:23 | |
well then people can relax a little. | 18:25 | |
They can afford to hold somewhat larger cash balances. | 18:28 | |
This means that there will be a | 18:31 | |
tendency for velocity to decline. | 18:32 | |
But that reinforces the effect | 18:35 | |
of the change and the rate of change and means | 18:37 | |
that the behavior of nominal and real income | 18:40 | |
will be even more contractionary than I have mentioned, | 18:44 | |
and thus, instead of nominal income | 18:47 | |
simply going at 0% that is staying stable, | 18:50 | |
you will have an actual decline in nominal income | 18:53 | |
and an even sharper decline in real income. | 18:56 | |
Now any such scenario, | 18:58 | |
would mean | 19:02 | |
especially coming as it would in the first half | 19:03 | |
of an election year, of a congressional election year, | 19:07 | |
would mean almost irresistible | 19:09 | |
pressure to pour on the steam. | 19:11 | |
And the great danger under those circumstances, | 19:13 | |
is that not only would the Fed reverse itself | 19:17 | |
but in every other respect we would see a reversal. | 19:20 | |
Instead of | 19:23 | |
holding federal expenditures down, | 19:25 | |
there would be pressure to raise federal expenditures. | 19:27 | |
Instead of delaying federal construction, | 19:29 | |
federal construction would be speeded up. | 19:31 | |
All over the lot, you would pour on the steam. | 19:34 | |
Again, this would take time to have its effect | 19:37 | |
it probably would not even affect the | 19:39 | |
congressional elections, | 19:41 | |
but it would leave a heritage of another | 19:43 | |
burst of inflation which would put us back | 19:46 | |
in the position that we were in in 1967 and 68. | 19:48 | |
Because of the mild effects in 1967 | 19:53 | |
of the monetary slowness in 66 | 19:57 | |
you had a pouring out of the team | 20:01 | |
which has produced our present inflationary binge. | 20:04 | |
And what I, the sequence, | 20:07 | |
the scenario that I shudder at, | 20:10 | |
is the scenario of an overdoing of it again | 20:12 | |
of a very severe contraction, | 20:15 | |
of a severe reaction to that and of our | 20:18 | |
starting out on another inflationary binge | 20:20 | |
which would put us right back where | 20:23 | |
we were before or in even a worse position. | 20:24 | |
And that is the reason why I tend to be so | 20:27 | |
Cassandra like in my warnings of monetary overkill. | 20:31 | |
Perhaps, for a time, I have been | 20:39 | |
fairly lonesome in these modelings. | 20:43 | |
But as of the moment, I am getting more company, | 20:45 | |
and so I am hopeful that this scenario | 20:49 | |
will not, in fact, be carried out | 20:52 | |
but then on the contrary, the Fed will start | 20:54 | |
to ease off substantially in the near future | 20:56 | |
so that we can taper off the recession. | 21:00 | |
Interviewer | And how about interest rates? | 21:05 |
Friedman | Well as you all know interest rates | 21:07 |
have been | 21:11 | |
rising particularly very recently. | 21:15 | |
You will recall that I have been, | 21:18 | |
for some months now, saying | 21:20 | |
that I thought long term interest rates | 21:22 | |
and also short term interest rates | 21:25 | |
have to come down. | 21:28 | |
That they | 21:29 | |
that you have two effects of monetary restraint, | 21:32 | |
a short term effect and a long term effect. | 21:35 | |
The short term effect is to raise interest rates, | 21:38 | |
the long term effect is to lower them. | 21:41 | |
If you look at the picture of interest rates, | 21:45 | |
what you find is that along them, | 21:47 | |
that they rose rather sharply until April. | 21:50 | |
March or April depending on the particular age you look at. | 21:55 | |
This was what was to be expected | 21:58 | |
from the turn toward monetary | 22:00 | |
tightness in December or January. | 22:04 | |
But by about May or June, if you had had a | 22:08 | |
constant degree of monetary restraint, | 22:13 | |
interest rates should have been declining | 22:15 | |
because of the longer term influence. | 22:17 | |
Instead, they have stayed up and | 22:19 | |
more recently risen some more. | 22:21 | |
As I have pointed out before, my own interpretation | 22:25 | |
of that is that that reflects the further | 22:28 | |
turn of the monetary growth. | 22:30 | |
Had the quantity of money narrowly defined | 22:33 | |
continue the increase at something | 22:36 | |
like four, four and a half percent, | 22:38 | |
interest rates would have been falling by now. | 22:40 | |
However, | 22:43 | |
the fed shifted from a four, four and a half percent | 22:45 | |
rate of growth to a 0% rate of growth. | 22:48 | |
The result was to step once again on the brink, | 22:50 | |
to once again to start a short term | 22:55 | |
upward movement in interest rates. | 22:57 | |
But this again | 22:59 | |
will be followed by a longer term effect. | 23:02 | |
If the fed keeps on with their present rate of monetary | 23:05 | |
growth from May and given that they changed in May. | 23:09 | |
By then, sometime next month or in December | 23:15 | |
you would see the end of the rising rates | 23:19 | |
and rates would start to come down. | 23:21 | |
If they ease more | 23:23 | |
if they ease sooner, if instead of continuing | 23:27 | |
at 0% they would've start resume | 23:29 | |
a moderate rate of growth to the quantity of money then | 23:32 | |
long term interest rates would come down more rapidly. | 23:35 | |
Those who have been following these rates know | 23:39 | |
that for the last two or three days, | 23:41 | |
there has been a very sharp rise in the prices | 23:43 | |
of long term government security, | 23:46 | |
so that there is some sign | 23:47 | |
that long term interest rates are coming down. | 23:49 | |
But I hesitate to extrapolate from a few days | 23:51 | |
but on the other hand I find it inconceivable | 23:55 | |
that over the next four or five months, | 23:58 | |
or by the end of the next four or five months, | 24:02 | |
long term rates will not be lower than they are now. | 24:05 | |
Because even if the fed continues its present | 24:08 | |
tightness that will be the case. | 24:11 | |
And I think the odds are | 24:13 | |
that under the impact of growing signs | 24:15 | |
of a weakening in the economy, | 24:17 | |
the fed will in fact be moved | 24:20 | |
to start expanding the quantity | 24:23 | |
of money somewhat more rapidly. | 24:25 | |
So as far as interest rates are concerned, | 24:26 | |
I was somewhat early | 24:29 | |
in expecting a decline in those rates | 24:31 | |
but I remain persuaded that over the coming months | 24:34 | |
they are going to have to come down | 24:37 | |
and perhaps very substantially. | 24:39 | |
Interviewer | And what is your | 24:41 |
forecast for the coming quarters? | 24:42 | |
Friedman | Well as I have already indicated, | 24:44 |
it is not, it is for continued | 24:49 | |
slow economic growth. | 24:53 | |
That is to say for continued, slowing down | 24:56 | |
in the rate of growth real output and the | 25:00 | |
rate of nominal GMP and that | 25:03 | |
and also for slowing down in the rate of price increase. | 25:06 | |
As I have emphasized before, | 25:11 | |
real output tends to react | 25:13 | |
to monetary changes more rapidly than prices. | 25:15 | |
Real output has already reacted in my opinion | 25:18 | |
and has been reacting for some time. | 25:21 | |
I now expect that we will see the effect on price change. | 25:24 | |
So I expect to be (stammers) | 25:28 | |
repeating the predictions I made before, | 25:31 | |
that by the end of this year | 25:33 | |
prices will be rising at the rate | 25:36 | |
of four, four and a half percent, | 25:38 | |
somewhere in that neighborhood rather than | 25:39 | |
the present six, six and a half or seven percent. | 25:41 | |
However, as I have emphasized repeatedly, | 25:44 | |
it is not possible to predict for very long | 25:48 | |
in advance unless you can also | 25:51 | |
predict what the fed's gonna do, | 25:52 | |
what other forces are going to be. | 25:54 | |
I have always found it very difficult | 25:57 | |
to predict what the fed is gonna do. | 25:59 | |
On the basis of what they have done to date, | 26:01 | |
they already have assured | 26:04 | |
a substantial decline | 26:06 | |
in the rate of growth of GMP and economic activity | 26:10 | |
over the next six months through | 26:15 | |
the first quarter of next year. | 26:17 | |
Whether that decline will degenerate | 26:19 | |
into a severe recession, | 26:22 | |
still depends on what they do from now on out. | 26:25 | |
They already have been tight enough | 26:28 | |
as to assure a fairly significant | 26:30 | |
decline in real magnitudes. | 26:34 | |
If they were now to turn around, | 26:36 | |
the decline might be kept to the order | 26:38 | |
of something like the 1958 decline. | 26:41 | |
I think already it is clear that it will be | 26:43 | |
more severe than the 67 decline, | 26:45 | |
that it will be more severe than the 59 to 60 recession. | 26:48 | |
So that on this scale, I would say that as | 26:52 | |
of the moment we look like we're headed | 26:54 | |
for something like a 58. | 26:56 | |
But it may be more severe than that | 26:58 | |
if they continue on their present very tight money policy. | 27:00 | |
Now let me repeat, | 27:04 | |
at one point cause I do not | 27:05 | |
want to leave a wrong impression. | 27:07 | |
There is no way, in my opinion, | 27:10 | |
that you can stop the inflation | 27:12 | |
without some economic slowdown. | 27:13 | |
So I am not quarreling, I am not objecting | 27:16 | |
to some slowdown in the economy. | 27:19 | |
Unfortunately, we must have it if we're | 27:21 | |
gonna get back on a non inflationary path. | 27:23 | |
But it seems to be urgent for both | 27:25 | |
political and economic reasons | 27:28 | |
to keep that slow down to the very minimum that is safe. | 27:30 | |
Safe in the sense of being enough to stop inflation, | 27:36 | |
but small enough so that it does not | 27:40 | |
create major social difficulty. | 27:42 | |
And it is on this score that I am highly critical | 27:45 | |
of what the fed has been doing in the past few months. | 27:48 | |
Interviewer | Thank you very much, Professor Friedman. | 27:52 |
Remember subscribers, if you have any | 27:55 | |
questions or comments for topics you would | 27:57 | |
like to hear discussed in this series, | 27:59 | |
please send them to Instructional Dynamics Incorporated, | 28:01 | |
166, East Superior Street, Chicago, Illinois, 60611. | 28:05 | |
Doctor Friedman will be visiting with you again. | 28:11 |
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