Abbas, Rushan - Interview master file
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Interviewer | Good morning. | 0:05 |
- | Good morning. | 0:06 |
Interviewer | We are very grateful to you | 0:08 |
for participating in the witness to Guantanamo project. | 0:09 | |
We invite you to speak of your experiences | 0:14 | |
representing and translating at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. | 0:16 | |
We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity to | 0:21 | |
tell your story in your own words. | 0:24 | |
We are creating an archive of the stories | 0:27 | |
so that people in America and around the world will have | 0:29 | |
a better understanding of what you have seen others | 0:33 | |
in Guantanamo endure. | 0:38 | |
Future generations must know what happened, | 0:40 | |
and by telling your story, you're contributing to history. | 0:43 | |
We appreciate your willingness to join and speak with us. | 0:47 | |
If at any time during the interview you want to | 0:52 | |
take a break, please let us know. | 0:54 | |
And if there's anything you say | 0:56 | |
that you would like us to remove, please let us | 0:57 | |
know and we will remove it. | 0:59 | |
So, thank you | 1:02 | |
Crew Member | One sec. | 1:03 |
Interviewer | Okay. | 1:04 |
Crew Member | Quick adjustment here. | 1:05 |
Interviewer | Okay, I would like to begin with | 1:08 |
some general information. | 1:10 | |
First, your name? | 1:13 | |
- | Rushan Abbas | 1:15 |
- | Country of origin? | 1:16 |
- | Country of origin, China. | 1:20 |
- | Hometown? | 1:23 |
- | Ürümqi | 1:24 |
Interviewer | birthdate, and place? | 1:26 |
- | June, 14 1967 in Ürümqi. | 1:27 |
Interviewer | Age? | 1:31 |
- | Forty-two | 1:32 |
Interviewer | Nationality? | 1:34 |
- | Uyghur | 1:35 |
Interviewer | Languages? | 1:36 |
- | Uyghur is my native language, and I also speak | 1:38 |
Uzbeck, Kasakh, and Mandarin Chinese and Turkish. | 1:39 | |
Interviewer | And English. | 1:43 |
- | And English; still learning English | 1:44 |
- | Religion? | 1:48 |
- | Muslim. | 1:49 |
Interviewer | Children? | 1:51 |
- | I have three children. | 1:52 |
Two boys 18 and 15, and the girl is 13. | 1:54 | |
Interviewer | And your education? | 1:59 |
- | I graduated college with a bachelor's degree in Biology, | 2:02 |
and then I have some post graduate school | 2:07 | |
from Washington State University. | 2:09 | |
Interviewer | And you, where do you currently live? | 2:13 |
- | I currently live in Reston, Virginia. | 2:16 |
Interviewer | Okay, um... | 2:22 |
(papers rustling) | 2:24 | |
- | Rushan, can you tell us something about your life | 2:28 |
before you came to America? | 2:30 | |
- | Yes. | 2:32 |
I was student in university, | 2:33 | |
and I was actively involved | 2:36 | |
with Uyghur human rights activities. | 2:38 | |
We formed a student organization promoting | 2:42 | |
the Uyghur rights and opposing | 2:46 | |
the nuclear testing in, in Lochner region. | 2:50 | |
And Lochner area in Xingjiang Autonomous Region. | 2:54 | |
And then we had A couple demonstrations | 2:59 | |
against the current regime, the policies. | 3:02 | |
Birth Control policies and the um, | 3:07 | |
the Uyghur education and unemployment rate. | 3:09 | |
Because when the Uyghur students graduate from college | 3:15 | |
and they can't get a job, the employers can tell | 3:19 | |
on their face that you are minority, you are Uyghur | 3:23 | |
and I don't want to give you a job and that's totally legal. | 3:26 | |
So we arranged a couple of demonstrations; | 3:30 | |
one in 1985 and one in 1988. | 3:33 | |
These are the four years from 84 to 88, I was in college. | 3:37 | |
And then when I graduated college, | 3:42 | |
I was labeled as politically untrust | 3:45 | |
I was labeled as politically untrust | 3:47 | |
person by the government. | 3:50 | |
And so my dad being a scientist there | 3:52 | |
and they have some influence in government. | 3:55 | |
So he arranged me to go to abroad to study. | 3:58 | |
So I came to the United States, 1989 to go to school. | 4:02 | |
Interviewer | Okay. Were you afraid for yourself, | 4:06 |
and were you glad you were able to leave? | 4:09 | |
- | Yes. And that's what my father's fear as well. | 4:11 |
If I have continued to stay, I could have get arrested | 4:14 | |
and get myself in trouble because | 4:18 | |
the speech and the expressing your thoughts, | 4:23 | |
that's not allowed in China, | 4:26 | |
and what we were doing was totally against | 4:28 | |
the policy that the communist China was imposing. | 4:30 | |
So my dad realized that with my political activities, | 4:35 | |
So my dad realized that with my political activities, | 4:37 | |
it wasn't safe for me to continue to stay there. | 4:39 | |
Interviewer | Did you know anyone in Washington | 4:43 |
when you went there? | 4:45 | |
- | My father had some friends and some professors | 4:46 |
in university and they, they came when I was the last year | 4:50 | |
in college to Ürümqi for visit. | 4:53 | |
And I met with them and we were a host | 4:57 | |
in our house a couple of times when they were in region. | 5:00 | |
So, and the one of them actually offered for me to come | 5:04 | |
to U.S. and study and live with them, which when | 5:08 | |
my dad arranged it, I stayed with this family. | 5:12 | |
They were sort of like my home away from home. | 5:16 | |
Crew Member | Let's stop for just a second. | 5:19 |
Crew Member | Okay. | 5:22 |
Interviewer | Did you know English | 5:23 |
when you came to America? | 5:24 | |
- | No. | 5:26 |
Just knew a few words when I first came. | 5:27 | |
Interviewer | And do you have any siblings who went | 5:30 |
before you to America or were you the first? | 5:33 | |
- | No, I was the first. | 5:35 |
My older brother was studying in New Zealand then, | 5:37 | |
and after I came, six months after I came to U.S. | 5:40 | |
he joined me here in the U.S. | 5:44 | |
Interviewer | Okay. So can you tell us a little bit | 5:46 |
about your experience in the U.S. when you first arrived? | 5:48 | |
- | I came in May 9th, 1989. | 5:52 |
And when they came to the United States, | 5:57 | |
the students in Beijing were demonstrating. | 5:59 | |
Basically they're taking over the whole Canon square. | 6:03 | |
The students democracy movement was really strong. | 6:07 | |
So, not knowing the English much, | 6:12 | |
and they try to learn at the same time | 6:15 | |
I came as the visiting scholar. | 6:18 | |
First, I was working in the research lab at the beginning | 6:19 | |
and then watching the news everyday, worrying | 6:22 | |
for the students, what will happen | 6:25 | |
Three weeks later I have watched how the military coming in | 6:27 | |
Three weeks later I have watched how the military coming in | 6:30 | |
and killing all the innocent students on the streets. | 6:34 | |
It was a horrible, horrible experience, | 6:38 | |
but I got to see it at least, | 6:40 | |
when people in China didn't even know | 6:42 | |
that actually happened. | 6:45 | |
So it was difficult at the beginning. | 6:47 | |
It was the first time I was living | 6:50 | |
from home and then young being youngest in the family, | 6:52 | |
I've never been away from my family, my parents. | 6:56 | |
But the family here host me was extremely nice. | 6:59 | |
And I noticed that all American people | 7:03 | |
are very friendly, very nice. | 7:05 | |
And the most of all, when I was living in | 7:07 | |
in China until I was 21 years old, | 7:10 | |
I have never felt that I had a country. | 7:13 | |
I never felt anything towards Chinese flag. | 7:17 | |
But when I came to U.S., instantly I felt like this | 7:21 | |
is a country that I wanted. | 7:26 | |
This is the country provides solid values, | 7:28 | |
and everything I ever wanted for my people. | 7:31 | |
And when I see U.S. flag, I just felt like this is my flag. | 7:35 | |
Interviewer | Hmm. | 7:38 |
And were you able to call home whenever you wanted? | 7:39 | |
- | No. Back then it was extremely difficult to get one call | 7:42 |
through actually; 20, 21 years ago. | 7:47 | |
So, It was like spending three or four days | 7:51 | |
try to get called connected and not always is successful. | 7:55 | |
We had to call from local phone line, | 7:59 | |
to United States International Operator, | 8:03 | |
International Operator will call | 8:06 | |
China international operator. | 8:08 | |
And then they will call Beijing, | 8:10 | |
The Beijing will connect through | 8:12 | |
the Xingjiang international - I mean, XingJiang Operator. | 8:14 | |
Then they will go through Ürümqi, then call my home. | 8:18 | |
By this time is it a time differences, | 8:22 | |
or some operator will not answer. | 8:24 | |
Or finally we got through, then it gets disconnected. | 8:26 | |
So, sometimes I would start calling like Friday night | 8:29 | |
and then Monday morning I just cancel | 8:33 | |
and then go back to school and just can't get through. | 8:35 | |
And then letter exchange, same thing. | 8:39 | |
Because China sensors all the letters. | 8:41 | |
Sometimes my mom would send me a letter saying | 8:44 | |
that I'm sending you these pictures | 8:47 | |
of family and I'm all excited. | 8:49 | |
But then when I opened the envelope, there's no picture. | 8:51 | |
It's just letter. | 8:55 | |
I don't know what happened to pictures. | 8:56 | |
And when I sent letters takes like | 8:57 | |
three to four weeks for them to get it. | 9:00 | |
So communication was really difficult. | 9:02 | |
Interviewer | And could you tell us a little bit about | 9:05 |
what you're doing that in school, | 9:06 | |
and then what else happened, you know from 1989, | 9:08 | |
till 9/11 | 9:12 | |
- | First, I came as a visiting scholar, | 9:16 |
and worked in the research lab. | 9:18 | |
It was a Plant Pathology Lab working on the virus diseases, | 9:20 | |
and the Hops Hub virus. | 9:25 | |
And that's when I started to learn my English, | 9:28 | |
and the dictionary was my teacher. | 9:32 | |
Just to look up all the words from the dictionary, | 9:35 | |
and then living with American family, | 9:37 | |
that really helped as well. | 9:41 | |
At the beginning, they were speaking | 9:43 | |
to me in a very broken English | 9:45 | |
like "we eat" and "you go" kind of like that. | 9:47 | |
And then they have a daughter who was a language teacher, | 9:51 | |
and she spoke Spanish and French. | 9:55 | |
And then I, Jenny - Jenny Falconer, | 9:58 | |
And when she came for one weekend, | 10:01 | |
when she saw how her parents were speaking to me, | 10:03 | |
and she said Rushan will never learn English if you do this. | 10:05 | |
So you have to speak full sentence and then show her | 10:08 | |
in the dictionary, the words that she doesn't understand. | 10:12 | |
And that's how they started to speak to me. | 10:14 | |
And two months later I was picking up and speaking. | 10:17 | |
And then by like October, | 10:22 | |
five months after I came to the U.S., | 10:24 | |
I took GRE exam and I got accepted for Graduate School | 10:26 | |
and I became Graduate Student. | 10:30 | |
And I was really excited because um, | 10:33 | |
being visiting scholar just working in the lab | 10:36 | |
was different than being actually student in the university. | 10:40 | |
Interviewer | Which university? | 10:44 |
- | Washington State University. | 10:45 |
And then after like two semesters, my major - | 10:48 | |
And then after like two semesters, my major - | 10:52 | |
Okay, do I want to go in there? | 10:57 | |
(laughing) | 11:00 | |
Then we got married. | 11:02 | |
I got married to one of the professors from the University. | 11:04 | |
Interviewer | Were you a majoring in Biology then? | 11:10 |
- | Plant Pathology, yeah. | 11:12 |
And my major professor, Bob Klein then, | 11:15 | |
he switched me over to another professor. | 11:20 | |
And I didn't really understand what was going | 11:23 | |
on because I enjoy having him as my advisor. | 11:26 | |
And he called for a committee meeting one day | 11:31 | |
and they switched me over to Dr. Mink, | 11:33 | |
And I was a little disappointed. | 11:36 | |
I thought I wasn't good enough to be his student. | 11:38 | |
Then he said, because I want to date you, | 11:40 | |
and I cannot ask you out while you are my student. | 11:43 | |
So, and then about six - seven months later | 11:46 | |
we got married and I was still continuing my studies | 11:49 | |
but then, I was pregnant right away. | 11:52 | |
And they delivered the baby in less than six months. | 11:55 | |
It was really dramatic having a hundred days | 12:01 | |
It was really dramatic having a hundred days | 12:02 | |
premature baby that basically ended my graduate school | 12:06 | |
and my science life there, and became mother. | 12:10 | |
Just took care of my son who was special needed, | 12:15 | |
who who's special needed, has Cerebral Palsy now. | 12:19 | |
And then I started to lose interest in scientists, | 12:23 | |
and because I was always interested in politics | 12:29 | |
and human rights started to educate myself | 12:32 | |
with different kind of like international relations | 12:36 | |
and political science classes. | 12:42 | |
I was just picking classes and local community college. | 12:44 | |
And then in 1997, Radio Free Asia added | 12:48 | |
And then in 1997, Radio Free Asia added | 12:52 | |
Uyghur service to their broadcasting service. | 12:53 | |
Uyghur service to their broadcasting service. | 12:56 | |
And I became a reporter for Radio Free Asian. | 12:59 | |
Interviewer | How did they find you? | 13:03 |
- | They were looking for someone who speaks | 13:05 |
all three languages; Chinese, Uyghur and English | 13:08 | |
who are eligible to work in U.S. | 13:11 | |
And back then, it was like only, probably about a hundred, | 13:14 | |
hundred and fifty Uyghur in the whole United States. | 13:18 | |
And did they had hard time finding someone who | 13:22 | |
qualifies; speaks all three languages. | 13:24 | |
And then somebody in Washington D.C. | 13:28 | |
contacted me; a Dalton Cambry. | 13:32 | |
He asked me to come to Washington, | 13:34 | |
and they did and interview for this position. | 13:37 | |
So I did, and then got the position became a reporter. | 13:40 | |
It was probably a different major | 13:45 | |
than what I had studied, but I enjoyed the, | 13:47 | |
got too involved with different the NGOs | 13:49 | |
and Human Rights Organizations. | 13:54 | |
Worked closely with Congressional Human Rights Caucus. | 13:56 | |
And Amnesty International Human Rights Watch; | 14:02 | |
Human Rights First. | 14:04 | |
Interviewer | Were you working out of Washington DC? | 14:07 |
- | Yes | 14:09 |
Interviewer | So you were now living in | 14:10 |
Washington DC, right? | 14:11 | |
- | Right, I moved to Washington DC at the end of 1997. | 14:12 |
Interviewer | And how long were you with Radio Free Asia? | 14:18 |
- | Till 2000. | 14:21 |
I quit in June, 2000 and moved back to California. | 14:22 | |
Interviewer | And why did you quit? | 14:27 |
- | My ex husband now, my husband then, | 14:29 |
he's supposed to, well he supported me | 14:34 | |
taking a position with Radio Free Asia. | 14:37 | |
And he said, you go ahead, go first; | 14:40 | |
and I'll join you after I get the job. | 14:42 | |
And I did, I moved and I wanted to take my kids with me | 14:45 | |
but then he was, I thought well, | 14:48 | |
he was being reasonable actually. | 14:52 | |
Then he was saying "it's new place, new career for you. | 14:54 | |
You can't do your job at the same time | 14:57 | |
take care of three kids." | 15:01 | |
By this time we have three kids. | 15:02 | |
So he told me to go alone | 15:05 | |
and then he will join me with kids. | 15:08 | |
And because it was, he said it was easier | 15:10 | |
for him to take care of the kids | 15:13 | |
knowing which daycare they go, | 15:14 | |
which school they go, | 15:17 | |
then me taking the kids to Washington DC | 15:18 | |
with totally new career. | 15:20 | |
And I did, I moved there and waited | 15:22 | |
for him to come and join me for two years. | 15:24 | |
And he kept saying that the, because | 15:27 | |
of him being in the University and in the research field, | 15:29 | |
it's difficult to get a job in DC, | 15:33 | |
and he's trying to get a job. | 15:36 | |
And then later was like uh, my field, | 15:39 | |
My major is Agriculture Plant Pathology. | 15:43 | |
And there's not much in DC and, but I'm still trying. | 15:46 | |
And I'm still trying like every three | 15:48 | |
four months I will come back | 15:50 | |
see the kids and it kept asking, "what's going on?" | 15:52 | |
"Are you applying for a job?" | 15:55 | |
"When are you going to join me with kids?" | 15:56 | |
And one day he called me up and he said, he's going | 15:58 | |
for interview for a position in Fresno, California. | 16:01 | |
I was like, okay, you know | 16:05 | |
I don't know much geography | 16:07 | |
but I know where California and Washington DC is. | 16:09 | |
But then he took that position in Fresno. | 16:14 | |
And then I realized that, okay, it's now it's my decision. | 16:19 | |
Is there a continuing my career | 16:22 | |
or quit my job and join him and the family. | 16:24 | |
So that's what I did; I quit my job, came to Fresno. | 16:27 | |
Interviewer | Can you tell us what happened then? | 16:32 |
When you were in Fresno? | 16:33 | |
- | I was working for a International Trading Company. | 16:35 |
As the International Business Coordinator. | 16:40 | |
And then this is like early spring of 2002; March or April. | 16:44 | |
And then this is like early spring of 2002; March or April. | 16:49 | |
Something like that. | 16:53 | |
I got called one day from someone. | 16:54 | |
Let me go back a little bit. | 16:57 | |
I was out one Friday for lunch, | 17:00 | |
and then when I came back and it was like three or | 17:03 | |
four emails from different people in Washington, DC. | 17:04 | |
All same subject line. | 17:08 | |
'Need a language support in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. | 17:09 | |
Looking for a U.S. citizen to work in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba | 17:13 | |
as a translator for Uyghurs.' | 17:16 | |
I'm like, what is this? | 17:19 | |
Well, I know after 9/11, we went to Afghanistan | 17:20 | |
and we brought some apparent suspects to Guantanamo. | 17:24 | |
But I did know there were Uyghurs there. | 17:28 | |
I just ignored it because I never thought | 17:31 | |
that I will be going to the Guantanamo Bay. | 17:33 | |
And then next day morning, | 17:36 | |
Saturday morning around eight o'clock, I got call | 17:38 | |
from someone who introduced himself as the | 17:41 | |
the Vice President of the Contractor | 17:45 | |
for Department of Defense. | 17:49 | |
It was called Titan, then | 17:52 | |
And now it's L-3 communication. | 17:53 | |
And he was like, | 17:56 | |
"Oh, we have been waiting for you for two months. | 17:57 | |
We have, we were sitting in Guantanamo since February | 18:00 | |
and we can't find anybody who's U.S. citizen | 18:04 | |
and speaks those languages. | 18:08 | |
And you are the only one. | 18:10 | |
We have contacted so many different people and everybody's | 18:11 | |
pointing us to you, and if you can come | 18:13 | |
and work in Guantanamo Bay." | 18:16 | |
I was like, "no way." | 18:18 | |
(laughing) | 18:20 | |
And I'm sorry, I'm not going to Guantanamo. | 18:21 | |
I'm not a translator. | 18:23 | |
And I'm not going to. | 18:27 | |
Interviewer | Why didn't you want to go? | 18:28 |
- | it was like, | 18:30 |
when you hear the terrorist suspect, | 18:31 | |
all this Islamic Jihadist or people who's responsible | 18:34 | |
for 9/11 and you work with them, you translate for them. | 18:37 | |
I was like, no way. | 18:41 | |
I didn't know anything about the- | 18:42 | |
who are these people and what's going on there. | 18:44 | |
So I just automatically didn't want to even listen | 18:48 | |
to the end of the conversation. | 18:51 | |
I just said like, "I'm sorry. No, I'm not going." | 18:53 | |
And then he kept explaining to me | 18:55 | |
that how important this is for the nation. | 18:57 | |
And we have all these people sitting there, | 19:00 | |
they withhold all kinds of Intel, | 19:03 | |
that we need to save our people. | 19:06 | |
We need to get to the bottom of their head. | 19:09 | |
And the interrogators cannot do that | 19:12 | |
without the language support. | 19:14 | |
And I need to do this. | 19:17 | |
And so at the end of the conversation, | 19:21 | |
and I still kept saying no, and he says | 19:23 | |
"please think about it. Don't say no, just think about it. | 19:25 | |
Then let us know, and I will call you Monday." | 19:28 | |
So I talked to my husband and I told him | 19:31 | |
this is what they are saying it. | 19:34 | |
I was like, you know, I'm all scared because | 19:36 | |
I'm not really practicing Muslim and I don't cover. | 19:39 | |
And they, when you hear Islamic jihad, | 19:43 | |
all I know is they don't even talk to women. | 19:46 | |
You know, like all kinds of extremism kind of things | 19:49 | |
that I hear from people that I have never experienced. | 19:53 | |
So I was telling my husband that, you know | 19:57 | |
I don't know who these Uyghur people are. | 19:58 | |
I don't know why they were there. | 20:00 | |
And they, they got caught among | 20:02 | |
the Tali bombs | 20:07 | |
or Al Qaeda or whatever you name it. | 20:08 | |
Arabs, or Jihadist and the I'm not going to go. | 20:10 | |
And it was just telling him all this. | 20:13 | |
And then he listened to me first, | 20:15 | |
then he said, you know, when you became U.S. citizen | 20:16 | |
you took an oath. | 20:20 | |
You pledge to this country. | 20:22 | |
You said that if this country ever need your service, | 20:23 | |
you will do your part; And here's your chance. | 20:26 | |
And I was speechless. | 20:31 | |
I was like, well, didn't think about it that way. | 20:32 | |
So then I realized yes, | 20:36 | |
this is my chance to serve my country. | 20:38 | |
And I know it's difficult and someplace | 20:40 | |
that never heard of with, you know, being terrorist camp. | 20:44 | |
that never heard of with, you know, being terrorist camp. | 20:48 | |
I'm in like a jail that's holding all the terrorists. | 20:50 | |
But then when I think about the way | 20:55 | |
that Bob mentioned to me, I was like, yeah | 20:58 | |
I think this is the right thing to do. | 21:00 | |
And then Monday when the gentleman called me back | 21:03 | |
and I said, okay, I will go. | 21:07 | |
And then it was funny actually | 21:08 | |
when I said I would go, he was like, okay | 21:10 | |
can you be on the plane tomorrow morning at eight? | 21:11 | |
I was like, no. | 21:13 | |
They gave me like a week to get ready. | 21:17 | |
And the, he was trying to tell me all | 21:23 | |
And the, he was trying to tell me all | 21:26 | |
about the salary and the incentives and this and that. | 21:28 | |
And I said, you know, there's not amount | 21:32 | |
of money you will pay me to get me away | 21:36 | |
from my children and get me over to Guantanamo Bay. | 21:39 | |
But the only condition I will ask is I have to come back | 21:42 | |
to California every six to eight weeks, see my kids. | 21:48 | |
if you will make sure that I have that privilege, | 21:52 | |
then I will go and they agreed. | 21:55 | |
Interviewer | They had said to you, | 21:57 |
you would be living Guantanamo? | 21:58 | |
You understood that? | 22:01 | |
- | They said that I'll be going there | 22:03 |
at least for six months. | 22:05 | |
And I'll be staying there for six months. | 22:07 | |
Basically what they said was like straight six months, | 22:09 | |
no break, no coming for visit. | 22:12 | |
And that's when I said, I'm not interested | 22:14 | |
in the money and the different incentives there, | 22:17 | |
but I have to come and see my kids. | 22:20 | |
I cannot be away from them for six months. | 22:22 | |
And they agreed. | 22:25 | |
So, they said they will arrange that. | 22:26 | |
And they kept their promise, actually | 22:28 | |
I kept coming back to see my kids every couple of months. | 22:30 | |
Interviewer | So can you describe how it was, | 22:34 |
when you first arrived? | 22:36 | |
- | First, I went to Washington DC, | 22:39 |
and then they did some like background checks | 22:43 | |
and the fingerprints and health check to get me ready. | 22:48 | |
and the fingerprints and health check to get me ready. | 22:51 | |
I think did the security clearance, | 22:55 | |
and they've issued badges. | 22:58 | |
And then I was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia | 23:00 | |
for the commerce replacement center for deployment. | 23:04 | |
That's when I was like, okay, what did I get myself into? | 23:09 | |
I have never been in the military. | 23:12 | |
And why do I go through a place that deploy the military | 23:14 | |
for hostile, you know, the situation. | 23:20 | |
And they showed camouflage and they all kind of | 23:23 | |
like emergency kit. | 23:27 | |
And the um, what do you call it? | 23:29 | |
Like a dog tag with your name. | 23:31 | |
And then I was like, what is this for? | 23:34 | |
Well, if something happens to you it'll identify your body | 23:36 | |
Okay, where am I going anyway? | 23:41 | |
Am I going to Afghanistan, | 23:42 | |
or am I going to Naval base in Guantanamo? | 23:44 | |
So we spent two weeks in the Fort Benning, Georgia | 23:49 | |
basically getting up at four o'clock in the morning, | 23:52 | |
And then they would put us in formation | 23:56 | |
with military uniforms, | 23:59 | |
Interviewer | Who was 'us'? | 24:01 |
- | Um, military, I guess, DoD. | 24:02 |
Interviewer | It wasn't other translators? | 24:06 |
You were the only translator. | 24:08 | |
Who were the other people? | 24:10 | |
- | There were some other translators as well. | 24:11 |
Some Afghani, Pashto, Dari translators and all men. | 24:14 | |
I was the only female. | 24:19 | |
As we were, I think, about fifteen, twenty people. | 24:23 | |
And then we were mixed with all the military | 24:27 | |
there in Fort Benning, Georgia. | 24:29 | |
And so we were being treated exactly the same | 24:32 | |
as the people who's being deployed. | 24:35 | |
People were going to Bosnia. | 24:38 | |
People were going to Afghanistan. | 24:39 | |
People are coming back from war. | 24:42 | |
And I was in this like room, was like double beds. | 24:44 | |
And they've in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping, | 24:50 | |
people will arrive. | 24:52 | |
They're all really upset, | 24:53 | |
because they just came back from war in Bosnia. | 24:55 | |
So, I was like totally lifetime experience. | 25:01 | |
I never thought that I will be | 25:04 | |
living through something like that. | 25:05 | |
And then actually the the worst experience was, | 25:08 | |
well, I guess, you know, | 25:12 | |
you understand how the military people feel | 25:14 | |
and to do, I guess that's that's | 25:17 | |
when I really realized like, okay, this is not | 25:20 | |
just the some simple translation tasks somewhere. | 25:23 | |
This is really serious. | 25:27 | |
When day before we supposed to leave, | 25:29 | |
and we were going through, | 25:32 | |
like we had this file in our hand | 25:34 | |
going through each station to get check, say good to go. | 25:36 | |
So we got all the stamps to, to deploy. | 25:40 | |
And then at one point when I came | 25:44 | |
to one desk and the guy looked at my papers and said | 25:45 | |
we don't have your kin, next of kin or something like that. | 25:49 | |
And I didn't, I, you know | 25:53 | |
I don't know those terms and like, what is that? | 25:54 | |
And he said, who's going to claim your remains? | 25:57 | |
I was like, Alrighty, who's going to attack us there? | 26:02 | |
And the who's going to protect us? | 26:06 | |
Where am I going anyway? | 26:10 | |
And then I have to put down somebody's name, | 26:14 | |
If something happens to me they will get my body | 26:16 | |
and like, okay I have three kids | 26:18 | |
and I'm just going to go for translate. | 26:22 | |
I know this is important mission, but I didn't know | 26:24 | |
this is what I have to go through. | 26:30 | |
I guess that each day when we experienced | 26:32 | |
something like that, | 26:34 | |
it made me feel how important this task was. | 26:35 | |
And how government is taking so seriously | 26:38 | |
even just the translators. | 26:41 | |
And we had to go through the full military scale | 26:43 | |
of deploying us to just go there and do a translation. | 26:47 | |
Interviewer | Did you think of changing your mind? | 26:52 |
- | No. I didn't think of changing my mind, | 26:55 |
but each step just made me feel that this is so serious. | 26:57 | |
This is not just a translating | 27:02 | |
for somebody which I have never done in my life. | 27:04 | |
But um, I guess just the each step each day made me feel | 27:08 | |
that the Guantanamo Bay was something really important | 27:13 | |
and really serious thing. | 27:19 | |
It wasn't just that we have some people | 27:20 | |
and we need to know who they are. | 27:23 | |
Interviewer | And how do you feel about | 27:24 |
being the only civilian? | 27:26 | |
Crew Member | Can we stop for just a sec? | 27:28 |
Interviewer | Sure. | 27:30 |
So how do you feel about being the only woman, | 27:31 | |
I guess translator, or maybe the only woman or the base? | 27:35 | |
I couldn't quite tell. | 27:38 | |
- | I was the only female civilian translator. | 27:40 |
There are some female like military personnel, | 27:44 | |
but there was no any other civilian contractor | 27:50 | |
supporting joint Task Force. | 27:54 | |
Interviewer | What did they treat you well? | 27:57 |
- | Yeah, Actually, I felt really good because when I arrived | 28:00 |
to the base, she, I have been told by other linguists | 28:04 | |
they are joking, sort of, some people were jealous and "wow | 28:10 | |
you are getting special treatment." | 28:16 | |
Then we had a meeting yesterday and there was | 28:18 | |
this female coming. | 28:21 | |
There's absolutely zero, zero tolerance. | 28:22 | |
And there any kind of harassment, if she leaves the base | 28:26 | |
you are responsible to replace her. | 28:29 | |
And so people were joking and says, you are untouchable. | 28:31 | |
We cannot come close to you. | 28:34 | |
We can not joke around with you. | 28:35 | |
And then they put me in a cul-de-sac quarters in | 28:37 | |
the in cul-de-sac. | 28:42 | |
they call it Generals cul-de-sac. | 28:43 | |
Where the Commanding General lived; | 28:46 | |
Major General Don levy and all his high ranking officers. | 28:48 | |
Colonel Cumming, who was the chief of staff | 28:52 | |
was directly across - | 28:55 | |
Interviewer | Is this in Guantanamo | 28:56 |
or is this still in Georgia? | 28:59 | |
- | In Guantanamo. | 29:00 |
Yeah. That's where I lived for nine months. | 29:01 | |
Interviewer | Okay. Before we get to Guantanamo, | 29:04 |
is there anything else in Georgia that happened? | 29:05 | |
- | No, I think it's just | 29:10 |
that we have been treated exactly | 29:11 | |
the same way as the military | 29:13 | |
Got us up like two in the morning, | 29:15 | |
said that we are ready to deploy. | 29:16 | |
And we got on the bus in the middle of night | 29:18 | |
with huge big duffel bag, three duffel bags. | 29:20 | |
And I didn't know how to carry that. | 29:24 | |
And like, I only have two arms and there's three of them. | 29:26 | |
What do I do with that? | 29:29 | |
And everybody has three. | 29:31 | |
So people couldn't help me carry around so, was interesting. | 29:32 | |
Interviewer | Did you have any physical training too, | 29:37 |
at the base? | 29:38 | |
- | They trained how to use the gas mask. | 29:39 |
And then the little bit of training | 29:44 | |
on how to protect us if there's an attack. | 29:47 | |
Interviewer | Even though you're going to Guantanamo? | 29:53 |
- | Yeah, it was funny that that's why I kept questioning. | 29:55 |
I thought this is not hostile place. | 29:57 | |
You know, this is supposed to be just the military base. | 30:01 | |
There is no war going on. | 30:04 | |
I don't understand why we are doing this. | 30:06 | |
And it always, some sometimes that's a joke, | 30:08 | |
sometimes a serious answer, I get the response I get is | 30:12 | |
while it's Cuba, Castros right there. | 30:16 | |
You never know. | 30:19 | |
Interviewer | And then, then they put you on a plane, | 30:23 |
a military plane? | 30:26 | |
or how did you get to Guantanamo? | 30:27 | |
- | It was chartered plane. | 30:29 |
We drove from, we left like two o'clock | 30:30 | |
in the morning from Fort Benning, | 30:33 | |
drove to Jacksonville, Florida, the Naval base there. | 30:36 | |
And then you took the plane and arrived in Guantanamo. | 30:41 | |
Interviewer | And 'we' are the other translators and you? | 30:46 |
- | Yes. | 30:48 |
Interviewer | And then what happened when you arrived? | 30:49 |
- | Some military people picked me up from the airport | 30:54 |
and they took me over to the Winward side. | 30:58 | |
The airport was in the Leeward side. | 31:01 | |
So we took the ferry to Winward side and then they | 31:03 | |
did they like in-process, | 31:10 | |
check me out then issued badge, | 31:14 | |
and then brought me to the language cell, | 31:17 | |
introduced me to my OIC. | 31:19 | |
And the officer in charge for the language cell was, | 31:21 | |
I think he was Captain. | 31:25 | |
He was the Army Captain. | 31:30 | |
So we were basically reporting to a Captain and | 31:34 | |
they being treated again exactly the way the military was. | 31:37 | |
Interviewer | And then how was it, did- | 31:42 |
from the first day I did the immediately bring you | 31:44 | |
in to do translation or how did it, what had happened? | 31:47 | |
- | It did briefing next day, | 31:52 |
and then took me to observation room to show me, | 31:54 | |
I mean to have me watch the other translators. | 31:58 | |
How they translate for the interrogation, | 32:02 | |
and they did that for like a couple of days. | 32:05 | |
So I was ready in like two days. | 32:10 | |
So I watched like Arab translators or Pashto, | 32:12 | |
or different people. | 32:16 | |
How they translate. | 32:17 | |
Interviewer | Were you still thinking | 32:19 |
these were terrorists and that you were afraid of them? | 32:20 | |
- | Yeah. I didn't know who they were, | 32:22 |
and I had no idea what to expect. | 32:25 | |
I didn't know how they ended up in Afghanistan. | 32:28 | |
And to me at that time everybody in Afghanistan, | 32:30 | |
who got arrested by U.S. military, | 32:34 | |
were terrorists who was responsible 9/11. | 32:36 | |
That's what I had been told.. | 32:39 | |
Interviewer | And that's what you were | 32:41 |
still thinking at that time? | 32:42 | |
- | Mhmm, yeah. | 32:44 |
Interviewer | So how was it when you were, | 32:45 |
the first time you had to do it? | 32:47 | |
- | The first interrogation when I went in, | 32:50 |
when I was there for a couple of DoD interrogators | 32:56 | |
and then another civilian interrogator from agency. | 33:02 | |
And they just like once third way through interrogation, | 33:07 | |
I realize they are not who I thought. | 33:11 | |
Interviewer | On the first day? | 33:18 |
- | The first day., yeah. | 33:19 |
The guy we, that, that we interviewed, | 33:21 | |
he was really happy to see me. | 33:27 | |
which in the Islamic extremist will not really | 33:30 | |
happy to see a female. | 33:34 | |
And he directly look at my face, | 33:35 | |
looked into my eyes and talk to me. | 33:39 | |
Actually, interrogator was getting upset. | 33:41 | |
Said "look at me, I'm asking you a question, | 33:42 | |
look at my eyes." | 33:45 | |
And he wouldn't because I am the one who's talking to him. | 33:46 | |
I'm the one that's translating, | 33:48 | |
So he just looks at me the whole time. | 33:49 | |
And he was very respectful to me. | 33:52 | |
And then when the interrogator was asking him, who is he, | 33:55 | |
Where he's from, how he got to Afghanistan, | 34:00 | |
why he was in Afghanistan? | 34:04 | |
Everything he's saying is everything that I know | 34:07 | |
from bottom of my heart, | 34:10 | |
how Uyghur people feel that when they are in Xingjiang | 34:12 | |
under the communist Chinese regime. | 34:17 | |
He was not there, and he didn't talk anything | 34:20 | |
about Islam or Muslims, all his talking about this Uyghurs. | 34:25 | |
And he was so pleased to be there in American custody. | 34:29 | |
And he was saying things like that, | 34:37 | |
the Uyghur people, the only hope that Uyghur | 34:39 | |
people have is the Americans help, | 34:44 | |
because he believes United States | 34:47 | |
is the one and the only country defense, | 34:51 | |
Uyghur people's human rights. | 34:53 | |
And he wanted to know if there is any hope | 34:56 | |
that United States will support the Uyghur independence. | 35:00 | |
So I just know, like talking with him for like half an hour | 35:08 | |
I realized that this is not what I expected. | 35:14 | |
And you can tell that he's very sincere because I hear | 35:19 | |
in their own, their mother tongue, I hear the emotions | 35:23 | |
and the tone and the words they use. | 35:28 | |
And he wasn't lying. | 35:31 | |
It was really coming from his heart | 35:33 | |
Interviewer | Did you say anything to | 35:36 |
the interrogator about that? | 35:37 | |
- | Interrogators also felt, you know, like they | 35:38 |
they kept saying, we, we took a couple | 35:42 | |
of breaks in between; coffee breaks. | 35:44 | |
When we go out, speaking among ourselves | 35:46 | |
the interrogator will say, | 35:49 | |
"gosh these guys shouldn't be here." | 35:50 | |
And "they just very unfortunate that they are here." | 35:52 | |
"they shouldn't be here." | 35:57 | |
And they knew, I guess they have been interrogated in, | 35:59 | |
in Afghanistan when they were there. | 36:02 | |
And it, I guess the interrogators had their files. | 36:05 | |
And they said that they weren't just arrested. | 36:08 | |
Who knows what they were doing, | 36:11 | |
but they are not part of the terrorists suspects | 36:13 | |
that we thought that we brought in. | 36:19 | |
Interviewer | So your whole sense changed | 36:21 |
after that person or during that first incident? | 36:24 | |
- | The first interrogation, | 36:26 |
after like halfway through the interrogation, | 36:28 | |
the person started to mention the names | 36:33 | |
that's very familiar to me. | 36:36 | |
They're like my father's friends. | 36:39 | |
All the intellectuals in my University, | 36:41 | |
and the the people I know. | 36:45 | |
The human rights activists overseas, | 36:47 | |
that Uyghur community leaders in Europe, Central Asia. | 36:50 | |
And I'm like, who is this person? | 36:54 | |
You know, he kept throwing these names | 36:57 | |
at me that I recognize and watching me like, my reaction is. | 37:00 | |
Then at the end of the interrogation, | 37:04 | |
when the interrogator asked, "do you have any final thoughts | 37:07 | |
or anything else you want to tell me?" | 37:11 | |
He said, "no, not to you, but can I talk to the translator?" | 37:13 | |
And he said, "sure." | 37:17 | |
Then he told me, "translate everything back to me | 37:18 | |
whatever he says to you." | 37:21 | |
I said, "okay.' | 37:22 | |
And then he had this bright smile on his face and looked | 37:24 | |
at me and says, "I'm so glad you came as our translator." | 37:28 | |
I said, "Oh, do you know me?" | 37:32 | |
He goes, "yes, you are Rushan Abbas." | 37:34 | |
I'm like, what? | 37:37 | |
I didn't feel anything, | 37:40 | |
and I wasn't like scared that he recognized me. | 37:41 | |
But the interrogators, just when he heard my name just | 37:44 | |
"let's go with, it's finished" then he just said goodbye, | 37:50 | |
and it took me out of the room. | 37:53 | |
And then it was reported to the Chief of Staff | 37:55 | |
and the Commanding General and hour later, | 37:59 | |
and they were talking with me asking, well, first | 38:02 | |
they were surprised how he recognized me. | 38:07 | |
And I said, well, this, this person was in Central Asia | 38:09 | |
in '95, '96. | 38:12 | |
And then I was there in 95. | 38:15 | |
I went to this Uyghur cultural event. | 38:16 | |
And I was at this stage as one of the honorable guests | 38:19 | |
from United States. | 38:24 | |
I was the only one who went there. | 38:25 | |
And then another thing is he kept mentioning how | 38:27 | |
he heard the news in Radio Free Asia | 38:30 | |
how he used to listen to Radio Free Asia. | 38:32 | |
And then he introduced the Radio Free Asia, | 38:34 | |
Uyghur programmed while I was reporter there. | 38:38 | |
And I also broadcast the whole Uyghur program. | 38:41 | |
And it's my voice. | 38:45 | |
It could be either way. | 38:46 | |
He could recognize my voice or have seen me in Central Asia. | 38:48 | |
And then Commanding General, ask me | 38:52 | |
"how do you feel for your safety?" | 38:55 | |
And I said, if I was here with the Chinese delegation, | 38:59 | |
And I would be scared because they think that I worked | 39:04 | |
for Chinese government, and they may not like that. | 39:07 | |
Because the whole, this three, four hours of interrogation | 39:10 | |
I felt all the resentment they have is | 39:14 | |
against the Communist regime. | 39:16 | |
But I'm here with U.S. government, | 39:20 | |
with U.S. military personnel. | 39:22 | |
And they, they have nothing against the American government | 39:25 | |
and they were so happy to be in American custody here. | 39:30 | |
So I don't feel any danger to my safety and I feel fine. | 39:33 | |
So he says, 'okay, then you can continue your work." | 39:37 | |
Interviewer | Do you mind- | 39:41 |
I don't know if are you okay telling us who that Uyghur was? | 39:42 | |
Who recognized you or? | 39:45 | |
- | Yeah, it was (indistinct). | 39:47 |
Interviewer | Oh. | 39:49 |
Did other Uyghurs recognize you too, | 39:50 | |
when you were interrogating them? | 39:53 | |
- | Yeah, a young guy who actually the youngest among them, | 39:55 |
he called me on my radio name, he didn't know my real name. | 40:00 | |
In radio I used the radio name Arman, | 40:05 | |
and he called me Ms. Arman. | 40:09 | |
And I'm like, "what are you saying?" | 40:13 | |
I think he says, I recognize your voice. | 40:16 | |
You use the speak in Radio Free Asia, | 40:19 | |
I used to listen to that radio. | 40:21 | |
And then, and a (indistinct) from Uzbeckistan actually, | 40:24 | |
he also recognized me from radio. | 40:27 | |
He says, and actually right at the beginning | 40:29 | |
of the interrogation, since I started it, | 40:33 | |
I actually just said, hi to Salaam and he goes | 40:34 | |
"Oh wow, Your voice exactly the same on the radio." | 40:38 | |
I'm like, "okay, well, where did you hear that radio?" | 40:41 | |
He says, when I was in (indistinct), I used to listen. | 40:45 | |
Interviewer | And the military was fine with this | 40:49 |
again and again? | 40:50 | |
And could you tell us a little bit about you started to - | 40:51 | |
but I went back to Georgia, but now we're | 40:55 | |
in Guantanamo about being the only civilian woman | 40:57 | |
and where exactly you were staying, | 41:00 | |
and why that was significant for you. | 41:02 | |
Can you described that a little bit? | 41:06 | |
- | I guess all the linguists, | 41:09 |
they were staying in the housing | 41:10 | |
in another neighborhood, I think called Winward loop | 41:13 | |
in little area that is for men in one quarter.. | 41:19 | |
Excuse me. | 41:27 | |
It is a two bedroom, two bathroom, like townhouse style. | 41:28 | |
Housing is living Room and a kitchen, | 41:33 | |
and there's two men in each room. | 41:35 | |
So four people in one quarter | 41:37 | |
and the all male is like thirty to forty linguists | 41:39 | |
from all over to, I mean languages | 41:43 | |
spoken all over the world. | 41:45 | |
I think I heard like 38 languages spoken | 41:47 | |
in Guantanamo at one point. | 41:50 | |
And the, I had that just for myself, | 41:53 | |
the two bedroom, two bathroom condo. | 41:56 | |
And I was the only one that I didn't have any roommate. | 41:58 | |
And there was and little cul-de-sac | 42:01 | |
where we had all the Colonels | 42:06 | |
and Lieutenant Colonels and General, Major General there. | 42:08 | |
And then I think it was, August and yeah | 42:13 | |
I think it was August. | 42:19 | |
I had the one roommate who was the military Colonel | 42:20 | |
Colonel Beaver, Lieutenant Colonel Beaver, Diane Beaver. | 42:26 | |
She was JAG to Commanding General Don levy. | 42:30 | |
She was my roommate. | 42:33 | |
And the think military had a little bit of trouble, | 42:35 | |
having her stay in my house | 42:38 | |
because I was civilian and she's military. | 42:42 | |
They usually don't mix the civilian and military. | 42:45 | |
But then I was the only female civilian there. | 42:47 | |
She was the only high ranking military officer, | 42:51 | |
And then she's supposed to have a housing | 42:54 | |
in that the high ranking Officers cul-de-sac. | 42:57 | |
So, she became my roommate. | 43:00 | |
Interviewer | Did, did you get to talk to her? | 43:02 |
She, she is known as someone who was involved | 43:05 | |
in some of the harsh treatment in Guantanamo. | 43:07 | |
Did she ever talk to you about that? | 43:10 | |
- | No, we, we became very good friends, actually. | 43:13 |
She was a very nice person, as a person. | 43:16 | |
And we talked a lot, but not so much about the mission. | 43:21 | |
We talked about the Uyghurs and she always used, | 43:24 | |
it felt really sympathetic to Uyghurs. | 43:28 | |
She said they were just wrong place | 43:29 | |
at the wrong time and they, we need to get them out. | 43:31 | |
But to where we know we can't send them back to China. | 43:36 | |
They, Commanding General and the Colonel Beaver, | 43:42 | |
who was her, his, well um JAG. | 43:46 | |
They, used to sit down to chat and sometimes over the beer | 43:52 | |
or drink and they start to go into some conversations | 43:56 | |
about the interrogations or some issues. | 44:00 | |
And they, if I'm there with them | 44:03 | |
I don't feel comfortable because I'm not in the military, | 44:06 | |
And some of things are way over my comprehensive. | 44:08 | |
So I just get up and to go back. | 44:13 | |
I noticed that they were proposing something more harsh | 44:15 | |
and she was, you know, she was a kind | 44:23 | |
of person that just has very strong personality. | 44:27 | |
I, I did have problems a couple of times, | 44:34 | |
what I have observed in observation for the other inmates. | 44:36 | |
And I did mention to her | 44:43 | |
over the dinner or when we are sitting | 44:45 | |
and having coffee in the morning and I used to complain. | 44:47 | |
I said, this, this is not what I know about United States. | 44:50 | |
This is Human Rights abuse. | 44:55 | |
This is attacking the religion. | 44:57 | |
Cause I have witnessed some things that I | 45:00 | |
shouldn't have seen, actually. | 45:03 | |
When I was waiting for my mission and they began, | 45:04 | |
we can't just stay in the hallway. | 45:07 | |
So going to observation room sometimes, | 45:09 | |
you just sit there and hear and watch | 45:11 | |
what happened in the interrogation room. | 45:13 | |
And she would say | 45:16 | |
"there are some really bad people here, Rushan. | 45:17 | |
This is the only way we get the information out." | 45:20 | |
Interviewer | Do you, could you tell us | 45:23 |
some of the things you witnessed? | 45:25 | |
- | The first one that I have ever witnessed was, | 45:30 |
and then later on it repeated a few times | 45:33 | |
and then it got even worse. | 45:36 | |
The first one was I walked in, | 45:38 | |
and then because when they first came | 45:40 | |
they made me observe the other Arabic linguists translation. | 45:44 | |
So when I walked into observation room, | 45:50 | |
I just decided to listen to the translator. | 45:53 | |
And so I picked up the headphone, | 45:56 | |
and I can see through the window. | 45:58 | |
Then I heard interrogator yelling at this guy, | 46:03 | |
he was a Yemeni detainee. | 46:06 | |
He's sitting headway down, just look really sad. | 46:09 | |
It never lifted up his head, I couldn't see his face. | 46:13 | |
And then the interrogator was yelling | 46:18 | |
at the translator, was he translating what he's saying. | 46:19 | |
And I didn't, I didn't quite get what they were talking | 46:23 | |
about at the beginning. | 46:26 | |
He was saying, "who give it to you?" | 46:27 | |
"How many times did you get?" | 46:30 | |
"who give it to you?" | 46:31 | |
"Was it your brother?" | 46:32 | |
"How did it feel?" | 46:33 | |
And stuff like that. | 46:34 | |
Then I was like, okay, maybe it was some information | 46:35 | |
or some, some weapon or something they are talking about. | 46:38 | |
Then later I realized that he was talking about sexually, | 46:43 | |
who basically did what to you kind of thing. | 46:46 | |
He, the guy felt so humiliated. | 46:52 | |
I could see just like more and more | 46:55 | |
his head was coming down and they will yell, | 46:57 | |
and they interrogate or come into his face. | 47:00 | |
"Look at me, look at my face." | 47:03 | |
"I want to see your face." | 47:04 | |
"How did it feel?" | 47:05 | |
"Was it your older brother?" | 47:07 | |
And it just, it was really bad. | 47:09 | |
So when I realized what they are talking | 47:12 | |
about, I took my headphone off and I left the room. | 47:14 | |
Second time was a female interrogator. | 47:18 | |
Again, it was the another Arab guy. | 47:23 | |
It was during Ramadan actually. | 47:26 | |
And all the inmates, they fast during Ramadan. | 47:28 | |
And then this female interrogator was all over him, | 47:33 | |
sitting on his lap, she took her a uniform off | 47:38 | |
and she had like really open revealing tank, | 47:42 | |
tank top underneath her. | 47:45 | |
And she was like, rubbing her chest, touching his body. | 47:48 | |
The guy was crying because it breaks his fast. | 47:55 | |
And she was laughing and she was doing all kinds | 48:02 | |
of things to him, like touching and playing with him. | 48:05 | |
And the, you can tell, he's just trying to disappear | 48:09 | |
from that chair and try not to look at her, | 48:13 | |
tried to pull himself away from her. | 48:17 | |
And I have seen something like that | 48:22 | |
later on a couple of times as well. | 48:24 | |
Interviewer | Do you know if that detainee was 061? | 48:28 |
Do you know what the number that detainee was? | 48:31 | |
- | I don't know. | 48:33 |
Back then, I didn't even know what language they spoke, | 48:34 | |
other than some sort of Arabic. | 48:37 | |
It was like different linguists | 48:40 | |
for different Arabic, like Egyptian Arabic | 48:42 | |
and Iraqi Arabic or Saudi Arabia or stuff like that. | 48:45 | |
Interviewer | So you weren't sure his nationality? | 48:49 |
- | That first guy that got verbal abuse, he was Yemenis. | 48:51 |
The guard came in to observation when I was leaving | 48:55 | |
and I asked him, where's he from? | 49:00 | |
He said, he's Yemenis. | 49:01 | |
Interviewer | So were you able to talk | 49:04 |
to the staff about this at all? | 49:07 | |
Or did - | 49:09 | |
- | I did mention to Colonel Beaver and I complain. | 49:10 |
Interviewer | And, and did that | 49:16 |
make you more compromised as to your work? | 49:17 | |
Did, did that color your work at all? | 49:22 | |
Or you felt - | 49:24 | |
- | So she just told me not to talk about it, leave it alone. | 49:26 |
And then these people are not what it seems to be. | 49:31 | |
This is the only way get the information out. | 49:36 | |
Interviewer | And what were you glad | 49:41 |
that Colonel Beaver was there, | 49:44 | |
at least you had another woman to talk to | 49:45 | |
or did that help at all? | 49:47 | |
- | Yeah it did, actually. | 49:48 |
Interviewer | And you had the Colonel's ear on the base. | 49:51 |
And did you have the Colonel's ear? | 49:53 | |
Did you have other people's ear that you could talk | 49:56 | |
to that maybe you had more access than other people did? | 49:59 | |
- | Because I was the only interpreter for Uyghurs, | 50:04 |
only translator for Uyghurs; | 50:08 | |
interrogators, they switch, they rotate every, | 50:10 | |
at the beginning it was only like every six weeks. | 50:13 | |
The date, the interrogators from agencies like FBI, CIA | 50:17 | |
NCIS, and the different people from different agencies. | 50:20 | |
They come and they leave every six weeks or eight weeks. | 50:23 | |
And I'm the only one there. | 50:28 | |
So I have the whole story, you know. | 50:30 | |
Like what the detainee said, and what happened next. | 50:33 | |
One thing really bothered me was, | 50:36 | |
they were only looking for certain words | 50:42 | |
during the interrogation. | 50:45 | |
And then they will take the detainees words | 50:48 | |
out of content and put together a different, | 50:52 | |
like different version of the interrogation. | 50:55 | |
And then next interrogator comes in with this record, | 51:00 | |
they will ask questions like, | 51:03 | |
"Oh, you were up on the Tora Bora with Arabs, | 51:05 | |
and talk to this Arab. | 51:09 | |
what did he say to you?" | 51:11 | |
And then detainee will say, "no, I was not there with Arabs. | 51:13 | |
I never talked to any Arabs." | 51:16 | |
And then he will look at me like you translate it. | 51:18 | |
You know, did you translate wrong? | 51:20 | |
I didn't say this. | 51:22 | |
And I will tell the interrogator. | 51:24 | |
And where did you get this? | 51:26 | |
Because I was translating, | 51:28 | |
and he never said something like this. | 51:29 | |
And then he'll say | 51:32 | |
"here this is what the interrogate record says. | 51:33 | |
This is what the other interrogator wrote." | 51:35 | |
When this kind of thing kept happening, | 51:38 | |
what really bothered me was one time when FBI agents slept | 51:40 | |
through the interrogation. | 51:44 | |
For two and a half hours, he slept. | 51:45 | |
When we were going over to the interrogation, | 51:47 | |
he said that he did snorkeling or scuba diving all night, | 51:49 | |
and he was really tired. | 51:53 | |
And when we got there, | 51:55 | |
we were in with two DoD interrogator and one FBI agent. | 51:56 | |
And then the DoD interrogator was asking the questions. | 51:59 | |
And then I heard like, sort of, not snoring | 52:03 | |
but like heavy breathing. | 52:05 | |
And I looked and he's sleeping there on the chair. | 52:07 | |
And I looked at the DoD interrogater, | 52:09 | |
It's like, he's sleeping. | 52:13 | |
They just said "leave him alone. Let him sleep." | 52:14 | |
because they didn't want him to ask questions, interrupter. | 52:16 | |
So he just went on with his question. | 52:18 | |
But I kept thinking, | 52:21 | |
okay so we are here for two and a half hours. | 52:23 | |
He slept through for like two hours. | 52:27 | |
What is he going to write | 52:29 | |
in his report from this interrogation? | 52:30 | |
Because he didn't hear anything. | 52:33 | |
And then after that kind of like, | 52:40 | |
it kept having that kind of information that's not accurate. | 52:43 | |
I went to the person in charge for FBI and I reported that. | 52:49 | |
I said, I'm the only translator here. | 52:53 | |
I know what I translated, what the detainees said. | 52:57 | |
And that's not what your guys are writing in report here. | 53:01 | |
And I don't like this because it's my credibility. | 53:05 | |
If the detainee said, "that's not what I said." | 53:09 | |
And if that's what interrogator wrote, | 53:12 | |
could be it's me that translated wrong. | 53:15 | |
Or it's your interrogator who didn't write in the right way. | 53:17 | |
And I said, your interrogators sit there, | 53:22 | |
and they say nothing. | 53:26 | |
And then when he hears 'Arab', when he hears 'Taliban' | 53:27 | |
he just jumps in and says, Oh, what's there Arabs?. | 53:31 | |
Then he just quickly write something down, | 53:33 | |
without knowing what the question was at the beginning | 53:35 | |
And what was the end. | 53:37 | |
And it's not accurate here. | 53:39 | |
And then what's that name? | 53:42 | |
I don't remember guy's last name or first name was John. | 53:44 | |
John Macer or something like that. | 53:48 | |
And he asked me to do a written report on this. | 53:51 | |
And I did. | 53:54 | |
I wrote up like three page written complaint. | 53:55 | |
Interviewer | To whom? | 53:59 |
- | To FBI, the person in charge for the FBI. | 54:00 |
Interviewer | Did you ever hear back from them? | 54:03 |
- | No, I just give it to that person. | 54:05 |
And I wrote a few incidents like that, | 54:07 | |
which date interrogators slept through, | 54:10 | |
and which day is that they don't pay attention. | 54:13 | |
They will walk out of the room for coffee, | 54:17 | |
and comes back after fifteen, twenty minutes | 54:19 | |
with a cup of coffee and sits there. | 54:21 | |
And then when he hears the word 'Arab' and he quickly writes | 54:24 | |
down a bunch of stuff, | 54:27 | |
and then like when somebody else comes | 54:28 | |
in and takes over his term, because he usually goes home | 54:31 | |
in six weeks. | 54:34 | |
when another FBI agent comes in, | 54:36 | |
the records is totally wrong. | 54:38 | |
It's not accurate. | 54:41 | |
So, anyway. | 54:42 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe, I didn't quite get it. | 54:44 |
So there's an interrogator from the DoD, always? | 54:46 | |
T interrogate is always from the DoD? | 54:50 | |
And then is there always an FBI agent in the room as well? | 54:52 | |
And as the FBI agents responsibilities to | 54:55 | |
ask questions as well, or just to listen? | 54:58 | |
how did you see the - | 55:02 | |
- | We always have one DoD interrogator | 55:04 |
and one civilian interrogator, | 55:07 | |
which is, could be FBI, could be NCIS, | 55:10 | |
could be the Air Force Intelligence Agency, | 55:12 | |
or from a NSA or somebody. | 55:14 | |
Usually the DoD interrogator | 55:19 | |
is in charge for asking questions; | 55:20 | |
but then the civilian interrogator would jump in, | 55:24 | |
interrupt the questions and ask something | 55:28 | |
If they feel that they need to clarify something. | 55:31 | |
So I guess from that one incident, | 55:35 | |
when the FBI agent fell asleep when I told him the | 55:37 | |
DoD interrogator he's sleeping, he said, let him sleep. | 55:39 | |
I guess they don't like getting interrupted by them. | 55:43 | |
So they don't really want them to ask questions. | 55:46 | |
Interviewer | Right. | 55:49 |
And with a civilian, I mean the civilian interrogators | 55:50 | |
or the civilian who were there, | 55:54 | |
were they supposed to coordinate their work with each other? | 55:57 | |
Or was it arbitrary which civilian was there each time? | 56:01 | |
Would always be a different civilian every time | 56:04 | |
you interview the same person? | 56:06 | |
it didn't matter? | 56:08 | |
- | The civilian interrogator usually just come in, | 56:10 |
let's say if the DoD interrogator, interrogates same person | 56:13 | |
five times, let's say. | 56:19 | |
He will only come in one or twice. | 56:22 | |
And then the other three times, it will be somebody else. | 56:25 | |
Or if he will, may not come in. | 56:27 | |
If it's same ISN number, say detainee | 56:29 | |
I think they feel that they've got enough. | 56:31 | |
And another thing I notice is from the early stage, | 56:34 | |
the civilian interrogators lost interest in Uyghurs. | 56:37 | |
They felt it's just, you know, useless. | 56:41 | |
They are not who we thought they are. | 56:44 | |
They have nothing to do this what's happening. | 56:47 | |
I think they also knew from the beginning | 56:49 | |
that they were turning in for bounties. | 56:51 | |
And, but the DoD was more thrill, more detail. | 56:54 | |
And keep trying to verify, | 56:58 | |
keep repeating the questions, you know. | 57:00 | |
Just same question asked again and again, and again. | 57:01 | |
Just keep going the interrogation. | 57:05 | |
But the FBI, for them it's like whatever, | 57:07 | |
you know, just spending two hours | 57:12 | |
and sleeps through or leave the room, get coffee. | 57:14 | |
Interviewer | Were these interrogations videotaped | 57:17 |
- | There is the civilian CCTV camera in the room. | 57:22 |
Should be, it should be taped. | 57:28 | |
But then later on when the attorneys asked | 57:31 | |
for interrogation records, | 57:34 | |
I think they have been told that they can't find any. | 57:36 | |
So I don't know tapes were destroyed, | 57:41 | |
or if it wasn't being taped. | 57:43 | |
Also there is like equipment to tape, | 57:45 | |
So I'm not sure I'm what. | 57:48 | |
Interviewer | You didn't see an audio tape? | 57:49 |
- | No. | 57:51 |
Interviewer | And what was your feeling | 57:54 |
about Guantanamo overall? | 57:56 | |
Did it change as the times went on, | 57:57 | |
or would you see differences from when you first arrived | 58:00 | |
where the men were in later on? | 58:04 | |
And what else did you observe? | 58:06 | |
- | At the beginning, I thought, | 58:10 |
yeah, they are all dangerous people. | 58:15 | |
So we should treat them really harshly. | 58:17 | |
They deserve all this, what's going on. | 58:19 | |
And then after a couple of months | 58:24 | |
and talking with other translators from other countries, | 58:27 | |
and talking with MPs, | 58:32 | |
and they translators who are translating for 160. | 58:37 | |
Okay. Let me explain something here. | 58:43 | |
When I first got there, the first year, | 58:45 | |
Joint Task Force was divided | 58:48 | |
to two version of the two sections. | 58:49 | |
Joint Task Force 170 and the Joint Task Force 160. | 58:52 | |
170 is in charge for all Intel, all the interrogations. | 58:56 | |
Translators who work for 170, | 59:00 | |
they only translate for the interrogators | 59:03 | |
and then Joint Task Force 160 is in charge for the camp. | 59:05 | |
They only translate for the guards, | 59:11 | |
military staff and the library. | 59:13 | |
Interviewer | Hmm | 59:20 |
- | Daily lives and stuff. | 59:22 |
But they don't know what's going on in Intel. | 59:22 | |
But there's only one Rushan for the Uyghurs. | 59:25 | |
So I was covering both. | 59:28 | |
I was translating for 160 and 170. | 59:30 | |
So, I got to deal with both side of it, not just Intel | 59:33 | |
but their daily lives and medical. | 59:37 | |
And they, yeah. | 59:41 | |
I go into cell blocks, | 59:43 | |
and I get to see where they live and everything. | 59:44 | |
So, and then I had friends | 59:52 | |
on the both sides and when they talk to other people | 59:54 | |
who's translating for the MPS, | 59:56 | |
they were really bothered the way that, | 59:58 | |
how the MPS were treating the detainees. | 1:00:00 | |
I guess people who was translating for Intel, | 1:00:04 | |
they know some of the people | 1:00:06 | |
who they are interrogators, also. | 1:00:09 | |
They know who Uyghurs are, | 1:00:12 | |
and they treat them differently, respectfully and nicely. | 1:00:14 | |
But when they are in cellblock, front of nineteen | 1:00:17 | |
twenty years old enlisted, the military guard there | 1:00:21 | |
who doesn't know who Uyghurs are. | 1:00:27 | |
For him, this is the person who was responsible for 9/11. | 1:00:29 | |
Maybe his friends or relatives being killed there. | 1:00:33 | |
So in his eye is, is the terrorist. | 1:00:37 | |
So there's all kinds of like, | 1:00:42 | |
like people are doing things to amuse themselves. | 1:00:45 | |
Just torture them. | 1:00:48 | |
When I say torture, not like physical torture | 1:00:50 | |
but like putting a loud music and the, you know | 1:00:51 | |
do or say things to irritate them | 1:00:56 | |
and just try to do something to provoke them, | 1:00:59 | |
to get them in trouble so they can punish. | 1:01:01 | |
And so that was really difficult to see all that happening, | 1:01:05 | |
because it seems like that there's this | 1:01:07 | |
really important mission, | 1:01:10 | |
but this young MPS are not really being supervised | 1:01:13 | |
by the chain of command to watch, what to follow, | 1:01:19 | |
what the rules are in the camp. | 1:01:23 | |
And me being on the both sections, it was really | 1:01:27 | |
difficult to deal with some of the issues like that. | 1:01:33 | |
And I was getting more and more frustrated with the mission. | 1:01:37 | |
And I kept saying, this is not the country I know. | 1:01:41 | |
this is not the loss and the rules that the, | 1:01:45 | |
that the military should act on, or based on, you know. | 1:01:49 | |
This is like abusing half the people's human rights. | 1:01:53 | |
And this is not what they expected from the military. | 1:01:58 | |
Interviewer | When you went back home the first time | 1:02:03 |
after six or eight weeks, and you had some distance, | 1:02:04 | |
did that make a difference to you in terms | 1:02:08 | |
of how you could observe what you had experienced? | 1:02:10 | |
And then we went back, | 1:02:14 | |
did you have a different feeling to what it is? | 1:02:15 | |
- | I um, actually, it wass more difficult for me to be away | 1:02:19 |
from the base because I was so worried from them. | 1:02:22 | |
Interviewer | For them? | 1:02:27 |
- | Yeah. Because now they have absolutely | 1:02:28 |
no language support. | 1:02:31 | |
If they get sick. | 1:02:33 | |
If something emergency happens or something, | 1:02:34 | |
they don't have anybody understand them. | 1:02:38 | |
So I would be going home, but then my mind | 1:02:41 | |
is like 24 hours back in the camp. | 1:02:44 | |
Because when I first came to the base, | 1:02:48 | |
seven weeks after I started to work, | 1:02:51 | |
first time I went home in like | 1:02:54 | |
two months or something like that; | 1:02:56 | |
seven weeks I was working straight seven days a week. | 1:02:59 | |
And I have no idea that we supposed to have | 1:03:02 | |
one day break for the translators. | 1:03:04 | |
And I, my allergies were really bothering me. | 1:03:06 | |
So I asked the OIC to have time to go to the doctor, | 1:03:10 | |
I need to go to the hospital. | 1:03:14 | |
And then he said "Do it in your admin day." | 1:03:16 | |
I said, "what's that?" | 1:03:19 | |
"Your day off." | 1:03:21 | |
"Do I supposed to get the day off?" | 1:03:22 | |
I thought, because I was going home | 1:03:24 | |
in eight weeks and the taking a week off, | 1:03:25 | |
I thought I had to work seven days | 1:03:28 | |
so I can accumulate my break time. | 1:03:30 | |
So I never questioned, you know, when it's my day off. | 1:03:33 | |
And then he said, well, the day that your interrogators, | 1:03:37 | |
your group does the paperwork, the admin day. | 1:03:39 | |
- | So what group do I belong to? | 1:03:44 |
And then he looked at me like, you don't have a group. | 1:03:47 | |
I guess each interrogator are separated as different groups, | 1:03:50 | |
And they have their own translator for the other languages. | 1:03:54 | |
When they have like seven eight translators for one language | 1:03:57 | |
the day that they do admin after interrogating | 1:04:01 | |
for six days and five days, they have one day to write | 1:04:04 | |
the reports, they work six days a week, | 1:04:07 | |
and did they get that one day off. | 1:04:09 | |
Since I don't belong to any group, | 1:04:12 | |
I'm translating for everybody there. | 1:04:14 | |
I had no idea that that we supposed to get that day off. | 1:04:16 | |
And the plus, all the translators work for like five days | 1:04:19 | |
and then one admin day off. | 1:04:23 | |
And then one actual break day, the actual break days | 1:04:25 | |
for me to go and translate for the library | 1:04:28 | |
and the medical staff. | 1:04:31 | |
And so I was like working seven days a week straight. | 1:04:34 | |
And even was that, in the evenings and the, during, you know | 1:04:38 | |
like meal time, something will happen. | 1:04:43 | |
Somebody will get really sick. | 1:04:45 | |
Somebody will have a very high temperature, | 1:04:46 | |
or somebody will have some conflicts with guards | 1:04:48 | |
And they, they will look for me | 1:04:52 | |
and I will drop everything and come. | 1:04:54 | |
There are times like two o'clock in the morning, | 1:04:56 | |
I had to go back to the care. | 1:04:58 | |
Then I have eight o'clock in the morning have interrogation. | 1:04:59 | |
So for me, that was just like, like ordinary thing | 1:05:02 | |
for every day. | 1:05:07 | |
Because I know I'm the only one. | 1:05:07 | |
So when I left after eight weeks, I was constantly thinking | 1:05:09 | |
'what if somebody gets sick?' | 1:05:14 | |
(indistinct name) has malaria. | 1:05:17 | |
What if something happens to him | 1:05:19 | |
and he can communicate with medical staff? | 1:05:21 | |
And what if, you know, there is something | 1:05:24 | |
in the caMP and they need to communicate and I'm not there? | 1:05:26 | |
So when I come back to the camp, | 1:05:30 | |
I usually more relieved because at least I'm there. | 1:05:35 | |
I can help. | 1:05:38 | |
Interviewer | Were you also translating | 1:05:40 |
for the Uzbeks at that time? | 1:05:42 | |
So how many people were you responsible for? | 1:05:44 | |
- | All the Uyghurs; twenty-two Uyghurs. | 1:05:47 |
And then it's like seven | 1:05:51 | |
or eight or nine, something like that, Uzbeks. | 1:05:53 | |
And then there's another Uyghur from Kazakhstan. | 1:05:56 | |
He's not the part of twenty-two. | 1:05:59 | |
Then few Kazaks | 1:06:02 | |
and then three Turks, | 1:06:08 | |
so probably about up to forty or thirty something. | 1:06:11 | |
Interviewer | That you were pretty much | 1:06:14 |
the only person responsible for them? | 1:06:15 | |
- | On both Intel and the camp. | 1:06:17 |
Interviewer | And did it get better? | 1:06:22 |
Did it, with time over - | 1:06:24 | |
how long exactly did you live in Guantanamo? | 1:06:25 | |
- | I lived in Guantanamo the first mission for nine months, | 1:06:28 |
but then in October they brought another translator. | 1:06:34 | |
Uyghur translator, but he was not U.S.citizen. | 1:06:38 | |
So he, his security clearance was only good enough | 1:06:42 | |
to cover 160, which is the campsite. | 1:06:45 | |
He cannot translate it, | 1:06:48 | |
He cannot translate for the interrogators. | 1:06:50 | |
But at least that really relieved me from getting | 1:06:53 | |
up middle of the night, around one and rushing, | 1:06:56 | |
because he covered all the, the campsite. | 1:06:59 | |
Interviewer | And then how much long | 1:07:05 |
after those nine months did you live in Guantanamo? | 1:07:06 | |
- | So I came to Guantanamo in the late April and the | 1:07:10 |
I left in December, right before Christmas in 2002. | 1:07:13 | |
I resigned and went back to California. | 1:07:18 | |
Interviewer | Why? | 1:07:22 |
- | Well, I realized that that, you know | 1:07:24 |
they got what they want. | 1:07:27 | |
All the interrogators already made the decision | 1:07:28 | |
that the Uyghurs were innocent and the, | 1:07:31 | |
they were at the wrong place at the wrong time. | 1:07:35 | |
There is no any Intel that they want | 1:07:38 | |
to get out of from them. | 1:07:40 | |
So interrogation and the interrogators keep switching | 1:07:42 | |
around again, new interrogator come in, | 1:07:47 | |
and they will come and ask same question | 1:07:49 | |
and do same thing just as a formality because they are new. | 1:07:52 | |
And these detainees are there for them to interrogate. | 1:07:56 | |
And then it's very frustrating | 1:08:00 | |
for the detainees because, | 1:08:02 | |
okay this is the eleventh times you asked me same question. | 1:08:04 | |
Either you believe me or you don't believe me, | 1:08:07 | |
do your investigation. | 1:08:09 | |
I told you what they want to tell you | 1:08:10 | |
and I'm not going to answer your questions. | 1:08:11 | |
And that, plus that will happen with Chinese delegation. | 1:08:16 | |
That really disappointed me what the U.S. did. | 1:08:18 | |
Interviewer | Can you tell us what happened | 1:08:21 |
with the Chinese delegation? | 1:08:22 | |
- | Different countries start to sent their groups to meet | 1:08:28 |
with their own citizens. | 1:08:32 | |
They will come in and they interview | 1:08:34 | |
their detainees and (mumbling). | 1:08:37 | |
And for me, it was just normal thing. | 1:08:40 | |
I wasn't surprised the Chinese delegation came | 1:08:43 | |
before that Uzbeks came from Uzbekistan. | 1:08:46 | |
Kazakhs came from Kazakhstan. | 1:08:49 | |
Yemenis governments sent people, | 1:08:52 | |
and Turkish government sents Turks. | 1:08:54 | |
So for me, it was just, okay | 1:08:57 | |
so Chinese are going to come and it's going to be the same. | 1:08:59 | |
One thing I know is absolutely no cameras allowed | 1:09:04 | |
inside of the camp. | 1:09:09 | |
And also inside of the interrogation cell. | 1:09:11 | |
And the none of the foreign government had access | 1:09:16 | |
to the DoD interrogation records. | 1:09:21 | |
And that's what all the interrogators promised Uyghurs | 1:09:25 | |
Every single time when interrogator come in | 1:09:28 | |
when they interrogate Uyghurs, | 1:09:31 | |
if they ask questions about them, | 1:09:33 | |
where they were | 1:09:35 | |
what they were doing, | 1:09:36 | |
how they came, | 1:09:37 | |
they don't hesitate answering all the questions. | 1:09:37 | |
But once the questions is about your family, | 1:09:39 | |
where your parents are, where you're born | 1:09:43 | |
and who do you have in your family or siblings, names, ages. | 1:09:45 | |
They get really hesitated to answer it because | 1:09:49 | |
they're afraid they're going to get their family in trouble | 1:09:52 | |
If Chinese government ever get access to it. | 1:09:55 | |
And then they, the interrogator will assure them | 1:09:58 | |
saying this is a country of law. | 1:10:02 | |
And our law prohibits any foreign government has access | 1:10:06 | |
to classified information. | 1:10:10 | |
And look at this word in your file. | 1:10:12 | |
It has classified which means this is | 1:10:14 | |
only the property of U.S. government. | 1:10:16 | |
We will never share any information | 1:10:19 | |
with China, Chinese, China is our enemy | 1:10:21 | |
and we will never give them your records. | 1:10:24 | |
Your family members are safe with telling us the truth | 1:10:27 | |
and you don't have to worry about anything. | 1:10:34 | |
Everybody assured them like that. | 1:10:36 | |
And then they feel comfortable telling them everybody. | 1:10:38 | |
Moms, dad, siblings, even aunts, uncles. | 1:10:42 | |
Whatever they ask the asset really sincerely. | 1:10:46 | |
And then when the Chinese government came, I was kept | 1:10:50 | |
on the other side of the base, actually where my quarters. | 1:10:54 | |
Because they didn't want the Chinese government | 1:10:57 | |
to see me being in the base. | 1:10:59 | |
Interviewer | Was is that because you were afraid | 1:11:02 |
for yourself or they were afraid for you? | 1:11:03 | |
- | I think they were afraid for my family. | 1:11:05 |
They asked me, who do you have in China? | 1:11:07 | |
My mom was still alive then, I said my parents | 1:11:09 | |
and my brother and sister | 1:11:12 | |
They said, all right, in that case | 1:11:14 | |
we don't want them to know that you are here. | 1:11:15 | |
So I didn't see them. | 1:11:18 | |
But then after they left, | 1:11:22 | |
and after the the Chinese government left the base | 1:11:24 | |
about ten days later, I mean, they stayed there | 1:11:29 | |
for about 10 days that I didn't see the Uyghurs. | 1:11:31 | |
I didn't see the Chinese delegation. | 1:11:33 | |
I just took a break for 10 days. | 1:11:36 | |
I stayed in my quarters. | 1:11:37 | |
Then when we came to see the Uyghurs, | 1:11:40 | |
you should see their face, they were like, like, you know | 1:11:44 | |
they have no spirit. | 1:11:48 | |
And their face were so sad and disappointed. | 1:11:51 | |
Then they're like, can't believe U.S. did this to us. | 1:11:55 | |
Chinese government got our records. | 1:12:00 | |
They know everything about us. | 1:12:02 | |
And they took our pictures. | 1:12:05 | |
That actually really, really shocked me because | 1:12:08 | |
how in the world, this one delegation had such a privilege | 1:12:11 | |
over all the other countries. | 1:12:17 | |
And why they were, you know given | 1:12:21 | |
Greenlight access to everything. | 1:12:25 | |
I complained, and they said they don't know. | 1:12:28 | |
It was, it came from Washington. | 1:12:31 | |
Pentagon told them to do that; Nobody knew | 1:12:34 | |
People were really actually, | 1:12:38 | |
the interrogators themselves really bothered by this. | 1:12:40 | |
They were sad. | 1:12:43 | |
They kept apologizing. | 1:12:44 | |
That I'm really sorry. | 1:12:45 | |
We didn't expect this will happen. | 1:12:47 | |
And even one night, gentlemen, I think he was | 1:12:49 | |
I don't know which agency it was from CIA or FBI. | 1:12:52 | |
He, yeah, he was FBI, actually. | 1:12:56 | |
Gray hair, elder gentlemen. | 1:12:59 | |
And he met with everyone Uyghur, each Uyghur | 1:13:01 | |
apologize to them on the behalf of our government. | 1:13:07 | |
He says, you know, I want to say | 1:13:11 | |
I'm really sorry being an American. | 1:13:13 | |
I want to apologize to you on behalf of my country. | 1:13:15 | |
I never thought that they will do this. | 1:13:19 | |
Interviewer | And so that, that impacted you | 1:13:23 |
as to why you left or - | 1:13:25 | |
- | That did too. | 1:13:27 |
Yeah. I, I lost respect as well. | 1:13:28 | |
I lost respect for the whole mission. | 1:13:31 | |
And then I thought, you know, | 1:13:33 | |
this is not what I signed up for. | 1:13:35 | |
This is not what they came from. | 1:13:37 | |
I wanted to serve my country, but not this. | 1:13:38 | |
Interviewer | One quick side note, you mentioned the CIA. | 1:13:44 |
So was the CIA sometimes sending a civilian person also | 1:13:46 | |
at these interrogations? | 1:13:50 | |
So in you, did you have a contract with the government? | 1:13:52 | |
And it was up, or you could leave at any point? | 1:13:56 | |
- | My contract was for a year and the, | 1:13:59 |
my term would happen up in April, 2003. | 1:14:03 | |
Interviewer | But, but, but by December, 2002, | 1:14:08 |
you just said, you're done? | 1:14:11 | |
- | I went to chief of staff in, | 1:14:13 |
I went home for November 1st for my daughter's birthday. | 1:14:16 | |
And when I was there, my divorce finalized. | 1:14:20 | |
Because I was in Guantanamo, my ex husband got custody | 1:14:26 | |
of all three kids and physical custody of all three kids. | 1:14:29 | |
We have joint custody, but I'm not there with them. | 1:14:33 | |
And that really hit me, actually | 1:14:36 | |
I was like, okay, what's happening here? | 1:14:39 | |
I'm in Guantanamo, | 1:14:43 | |
I thought I was serving this very important mission, | 1:14:45 | |
but that's not what I thought. | 1:14:49 | |
The the mission is becoming more | 1:14:52 | |
a disappointment then, you know, being so important. | 1:14:54 | |
And now I'm losing my children | 1:14:58 | |
because I'm in Guantanamo and I am really dedicated mother, | 1:14:59 | |
you know I quit my job repeatedly. | 1:15:04 | |
I quit my education for those kids. | 1:15:06 | |
I stayed at home, took care of kids when they were young. | 1:15:08 | |
And I'm not a drug user or I'm not alcoholic. | 1:15:12 | |
And I suppose to have the physical custody | 1:15:19 | |
of my children, you know, legally. | 1:15:22 | |
The only reason I couldn't because when Bob filed | 1:15:24 | |
for the physical custody of the kids, he says, you know | 1:15:29 | |
I know she's a great mom that dah, dah, dah | 1:15:32 | |
but she can't take the kids to go Guantanamo. | 1:15:34 | |
Her job is right now, it's in Guantanamo, | 1:15:39 | |
and therefore I want the custody of three kids. | 1:15:41 | |
And I couldn't say anything to that | 1:15:44 | |
because which is the truth andnd it really bothered me. | 1:15:46 | |
And then when they went back on the November 5th, | 1:15:51 | |
I think, I went to chief of staff. | 1:15:54 | |
I said, number one, everybody who came to this mission | 1:15:56 | |
and even your military active duty or reserve, | 1:16:04 | |
everybody are here for six months rotation. | 1:16:07 | |
And I have been here for a lot longer than that. | 1:16:11 | |
(knock on a door) | 1:16:14 | |
- | [Female Crew Member] Presented as translator other folks | 1:16:19 |
in addition to the Uyghurs, would you be able to say | 1:16:22 | |
with confidence that those people are innocent? | 1:16:26 | |
- | No, I can't because I - | 1:16:29 |
Interviewer | Yeah I don't think you that | 1:16:30 |
- | [Female Crew Member] No, I didn't really, because - | 1:16:31 |
Interviewer | You were saying that you were talking, | 1:16:36 |
when you came back after November 5th - | 1:16:40 | |
- | Yeah. Then I went to chief of staff | 1:16:42 |
and they said, you know, number one, all your interrogators | 1:16:44 | |
and your even military staff; | 1:16:49 | |
I mean, you're active duty soldiers, | 1:16:51 | |
everybody who deployed here, | 1:16:55 | |
they stay only six months rotation. | 1:16:56 | |
And I'm not the military, | 1:16:58 | |
and I stayed a lot longer than that. | 1:17:00 | |
Number two, I am not contracted with the military | 1:17:02 | |
and my contractor that I'm an employee | 1:17:10 | |
which means I can quit. | 1:17:13 | |
I can resign anytime I want. | 1:17:15 | |
And I can just give two weeks notation and quit my job | 1:17:17 | |
with my contractor. | 1:17:20 | |
But I'll be fair because I understand how difficult it is | 1:17:22 | |
for you to find the linguist. | 1:17:26 | |
So I'll give you six weeks, I am leaving for Christmas. | 1:17:28 | |
This is early November, | 1:17:33 | |
you have till end of December to replace me. | 1:17:34 | |
And I'm going home for Christmas. | 1:17:38 | |
And he was like, Oh yeah, I understand. | 1:17:40 | |
And the, if you want to go home, that's fine. | 1:17:43 | |
So we'll go then get to it. | 1:17:45 | |
You know, I tried to find somebody, | 1:17:49 | |
but then after like four weeks, he came to me and he said, | 1:17:51 | |
"No luck. Can you stay?" | 1:17:54 | |
"Nope, I'm going home for Christmas." | 1:17:56 | |
So I left, but they couldn't find anybody. | 1:17:59 | |
So I left the base with no replacement. | 1:18:02 | |
We had that one person who's not U.S. citizen. | 1:18:05 | |
And then he kept saying that, what are we going to do? | 1:18:07 | |
If you leave, we can't interrogate them and stuff. | 1:18:11 | |
And I said, well, you had that person, | 1:18:14 | |
you can make him U.S. citizen if you want. | 1:18:15 | |
And you know, have him translate. | 1:18:18 | |
And so I left and then three months later, | 1:18:21 | |
they contacted me. | 1:18:24 | |
This was in March of '03 | 1:18:26 | |
And that asked me, do you remember when you left the base? | 1:18:30 | |
I said, yeah, I left 20th of December. | 1:18:33 | |
Well, how many days do you know since (mumbling)? | 1:18:38 | |
Yeah, it's almost three months. | 1:18:41 | |
"Nobody had talked to them. | 1:18:42 | |
Your guys are sitting in cell blocks for past three months. | 1:18:44 | |
No one can interrogate them, | 1:18:47 | |
because we don't have language support. | 1:18:49 | |
Can you come back?" | 1:18:51 | |
I just started the job like two months | 1:18:54 | |
ago with this company, and I loved my job | 1:18:56 | |
and I was still under this three month probation periods. | 1:18:59 | |
I said, "No, thanks." | 1:19:02 | |
I don't want to lose my job in Fresno. | 1:19:04 | |
It's not easy for me to find this kind of job | 1:19:05 | |
if I leave now, because they said for a very short time. | 1:19:08 | |
It's for six weeks or two months maximum? | 1:19:11 | |
I said, "that's really nice. | 1:19:16 | |
But if I come back after two months | 1:19:17 | |
I'm not going to have my job." | 1:19:19 | |
And then they asked me who I work for and what I'm doing. | 1:19:22 | |
And just asked me, just like chatting | 1:19:26 | |
about my current position. | 1:19:28 | |
And then that was in the morning | 1:19:33 | |
about four o'clock in the afternoon. | 1:19:35 | |
My VP called me to his office and said, | 1:19:38 | |
"Wow, I didn't realize that | 1:19:40 | |
we have such a valuable person here." | 1:19:42 | |
And "I got call from this guy | 1:19:44 | |
and talking to me about this mission in Guantanamo | 1:19:47 | |
they need you to back there." | 1:19:50 | |
I said, all right, I don't want to lose this job. | 1:19:52 | |
I don't want to go. | 1:19:56 | |
He said, "no, you go and we'll keep your position open." | 1:19:57 | |
"We'll treat you as like military reserve. | 1:20:00 | |
And they got called for mission. | 1:20:06 | |
And when they come back, we still had their position. | 1:20:07 | |
So you go ahead, go." | 1:20:09 | |
So I went back for another two months. | 1:20:11 | |
Interviewer | And how was that? | 1:20:13 |
Was that different? | 1:20:14 | |
- | Oh yeah. | 1:20:15 |
This time everything was like, | 1:20:17 | |
they put me in the Naval lodge, | 1:20:19 | |
which is like a four-star hotel. | 1:20:22 | |
The only nice hotel, nice place. | 1:20:24 | |
Get me a car. | 1:20:28 | |
So I had my own car and they um, | 1:20:30 | |
the interrogation was nice because this is | 1:20:33 | |
for basically closing their files to, to release them. | 1:20:39 | |
And the detainees were so happy to see me | 1:20:45 | |
after three months, after I came back. | 1:20:49 | |
Interrogators were really excited for them. | 1:20:52 | |
And every interrogation they will ask, | 1:20:54 | |
"So what do you want to do when you release"? | 1:20:56 | |
You know, "what kind of job can you do?" | 1:20:59 | |
And "do you have any family who you want to join with you?" | 1:21:01 | |
"Where do you want to go?" | 1:21:05 | |
And it was just all happy, you know, meetings. | 1:21:07 | |
Happy interrogation. | 1:21:10 | |
And then when they left and the end of the assignment, | 1:21:13 | |
I told them "next time when I see you, | 1:21:16 | |
it will be in a free world." | 1:21:19 | |
You know, you'll be free in third country somewhere. | 1:21:21 | |
Interviewer | Is that true? | 1:21:28 |
- | Three years later, I went back to Guantanamo. | 1:21:31 |
They were still in cell blocks. | 1:21:34 | |
Interviewer | And before we go to that, | 1:21:37 |
I just want to back up. | 1:21:39 | |
And you said that the men were hesitant, | 1:21:40 | |
they didn't want the Chinese to know about their background | 1:21:43 | |
because they, their families could be harassed. | 1:21:46 | |
And then they hid you out because they didn't want | 1:21:48 | |
the Chinese to know you were there ,to be harassed. | 1:21:51 | |
What is your family or harassed? | 1:21:55 | |
- | Not directly, but indirectly, yes. | 1:21:58 |
My family has suffered. | 1:22:02 | |
And my parents both have U.S. Green cards. | 1:22:05 | |
With Chinese law, basically they should have their access | 1:22:10 | |
for their passport so they can leave the country | 1:22:16 | |
and leave to United States whenever they want. | 1:22:18 | |
But for no reason, my parents' passports | 1:22:21 | |
were taken away from them. | 1:22:24 | |
My mom passed away in 2004, | 1:22:26 | |
but my father still don't have his passport. | 1:22:28 | |
Interviewer | When were they, when was it taken away? | 1:22:31 |
- | Um, 2003; at the end of 2003. | 1:22:34 |
Interviewer | And so they knew you were | 1:22:41 |
working in the, do you think? | 1:22:43 | |
So you said three years later, nothing has changed. | 1:22:45 | |
They were still there. | 1:22:51 | |
Where were you for those three years? | 1:22:51 | |
- | Actually, let me go back a little bit | 1:22:56 |
on that and add something to it. | 1:22:57 | |
I was in California working | 1:23:00 | |
for the same company, continue my job there. | 1:23:02 | |
And then I filed for rearranging the custody | 1:23:06 | |
and have my daughter comne and live with me. | 1:23:09 | |
I wanted all three back, but then my ex husband explained | 1:23:12 | |
that for my special needs child | 1:23:16 | |
it's better for him to take care of the boys. | 1:23:18 | |
So I was taking care of my daughter and working | 1:23:22 | |
in the same town that my ex husband and my boys live. | 1:23:25 | |
And then, I was following very closely | 1:23:31 | |
with Guantanamo Uyghurs, and I was hoping to | 1:23:34 | |
see the news about them being released soon. | 1:23:42 | |
And then unfortunately at the end of 2004 | 1:23:45 | |
there was a CSRT to combat | 1:23:51 | |
Interviewer | Status? | 1:23:55 |
- | Status review tribunal. | 1:23:56 |
And then the result of that | 1:23:58 | |
was five Uyghurs cleared to be innocent, | 1:23:59 | |
non enemy combatants | 1:24:05 | |
Seventeen of them labeled as enemy combatants. | 1:24:06 | |
And when I saw the names, | 1:24:11 | |
the attorneys who are working with them | 1:24:13 | |
going back to Guantanamo and that, | 1:24:15 | |
they released the court files | 1:24:19 | |
and when they filed for it DC circuit court. | 1:24:22 | |
When I saw the names, I was, I couldn't believe | 1:24:27 | |
what's the measurement there for them | 1:24:30 | |
to come up that kind of resolved; | 1:24:36 | |
because the five that found non enemy combatants | 1:24:38 | |
were a group of 18 together. | 1:24:43 | |
They travel together from Afghanistan. | 1:24:46 | |
And they were up on the Tora Bora Mountains together | 1:24:49 | |
when their refugee lodging place | 1:24:52 | |
got blown up during bombing, | 1:24:55 | |
and then they walked together to Pakistan, | 1:24:58 | |
they are arrested together, | 1:25:01 | |
turn over to U.S. by the bounty hunters together. | 1:25:03 | |
This is group of 18. | 1:25:07 | |
Now we have five non-enemy combatants, | 1:25:09 | |
13 enemy combatants? | 1:25:12 | |
Okay. So if there are white, all of them should be white. | 1:25:14 | |
If they are black, all of them should be black. | 1:25:17 | |
So I just tried to understand this. | 1:25:19 | |
How they became separated to two categories. | 1:25:22 | |
And then in early 2006, | 1:25:28 | |
five of them got released to Albania. | 1:25:33 | |
As my promise to them, I said, | 1:25:36 | |
"I will be visiting you wherever you go | 1:25:38 | |
after you become free." | 1:25:40 | |
So I went to Albania, visit them. | 1:25:42 | |
And so they told me what happened to them | 1:25:45 | |
after I left after 2003, and it was really nice reunion. | 1:25:48 | |
And then the, the attorneys contacted me. | 1:25:53 | |
Apparently when, when they went back | 1:25:58 | |
to see the detainees in Guantanamo - excuse me. | 1:26:03 | |
They brought the American linguist that, | 1:26:08 | |
who learned Uyghur as translator, | 1:26:13 | |
because that was the only translator they could find. | 1:26:17 | |
And they, he's a really nice person | 1:26:21 | |
but since it's not his native language | 1:26:23 | |
and that the guys couldn't understand him, | 1:26:25 | |
and it just wasn't the same. | 1:26:28 | |
So they asked the attorneys to find Rushan, | 1:26:33 | |
find our translator. | 1:26:37 | |
And when Saban asked "who's this Rushan?" | 1:26:39 | |
they said that she was our translator | 1:26:42 | |
when we first came here. | 1:26:43 | |
Then when he realized that she was the translator | 1:26:45 | |
for the captors, for the interrogators. | 1:26:47 | |
And he was surprised. | 1:26:51 | |
And he was like, Oh, okay, I never heard of this. | 1:26:53 | |
You know, you want your translator that was here | 1:26:57 | |
when you first brought here> | 1:27:00 | |
And they said, "yeah, we trust her, bring her." | 1:27:02 | |
So Saban contacted me and said | 1:27:05 | |
that if I can translate for them, | 1:27:07 | |
And go to Guantanamo with attornies. | 1:27:10 | |
Interviewer | Could you tell us what | 1:27:12 |
Saban's first name is? | 1:27:14 | |
- | Saban Willard. | 1:27:15 |
Interviewer | Saban Willard. And when did he contact you? | 1:27:17 |
- | That was just shortly after the men arrived in Albania, | 1:27:20 |
which was the summer of 2006. | 1:27:24 | |
Interviewer | And did you then quit your job to do this? | 1:27:27 |
- | No, I kept my job full time. | 1:27:29 |
I did this just on the side. | 1:27:32 | |
I will take vacation time off from work, | 1:27:35 | |
or able to take like unpaid leave of absence. | 1:27:38 | |
And then I will go with the attorneys | 1:27:41 | |
because the trips with the attorneys were really short. | 1:27:43 | |
It's only like three or four times, | 1:27:47 | |
of three or four days each time. | 1:27:48 | |
And then every couple of months. | 1:27:50 | |
Interviewer | And Guantanamo change to you, | 1:27:52 |
after three years when you went back? | 1:27:53 | |
- | Not much, actually more buildings were built. | 1:27:58 |
It was brand new camps, camp five camp six one way. | 1:28:04 | |
Interviewer | How did the men appear to you coming back | 1:28:09 |
three years later? | 1:28:12 | |
- | They were not the same people | 1:28:19 |
that they saw three years ago. | 1:28:22 | |
You don't see that the happy face, | 1:28:25 | |
like they were they were so happy to be in U.S. custody. | 1:28:28 | |
They were so excited . | 1:28:32 | |
And they had so much trust and respect | 1:28:35 | |
to the Americans and the American system and the country. | 1:28:37 | |
If you ask one questions, they will tell you ten to just, | 1:28:43 | |
like some of the questions were like related | 1:28:46 | |
to the Chinese system and the military and different things. | 1:28:50 | |
And they just want to help U.S. to, | 1:28:54 | |
you know get any information. | 1:28:58 | |
I realize that they're not that talkative anymore. | 1:29:01 | |
They're not that excited about anything. | 1:29:05 | |
And they, before they were so trusting, you know, | 1:29:09 | |
when somebody talks to them, | 1:29:15 | |
somebody introduced them that 'I will be your interrogator. | 1:29:16 | |
I will try to help you get you out of here.' | 1:29:19 | |
And you can see that, okay, so this person will help me | 1:29:23 | |
and they clear me or, you know, understand me. | 1:29:28 | |
But now attorneys are trying to say the same thing. | 1:29:34 | |
I am your attorney. | 1:29:37 | |
It's like, okay; Yeah, Right. | 1:29:38 | |
You're another American. | 1:29:40 | |
We had been lied to so many times though. | 1:29:41 | |
What kind of lies you'll have for us now? | 1:29:43 | |
And he has some of them even, | 1:29:46 | |
when Saban started to open his mouth | 1:29:48 | |
and tried to introduce himself, | 1:29:50 | |
just shut him off, like stop talking. | 1:29:52 | |
I didn't come here at the to to you. | 1:29:54 | |
I came here to see Rushan. | 1:29:55 | |
I just want to see my translator, | 1:29:58 | |
and they just say hi to her. | 1:30:00 | |
So they were like, they were changed. | 1:30:04 | |
More like I wouldn't saying rude, | 1:30:09 | |
but sort of like in our culture | 1:30:13 | |
people are really kind, and they're really respectful. | 1:30:16 | |
You don't shut somebody up when you are talking, | 1:30:20 | |
or you don't interrupt them. | 1:30:24 | |
But they had no problem doing that to attorneys. | 1:30:26 | |
So the system changed them. | 1:30:30 | |
Interviewer | How did you feel about watching them? | 1:30:33 |
Observing them? | 1:30:35 | |
- | I was, I felt sad cause you know. | 1:30:37 |
And I was disappointed in our system as well. | 1:30:41 | |
Because I know that U.S. government | 1:30:43 | |
tried really hard to find them countries to resettle them | 1:30:47 | |
after they made the decision, they are not going to | 1:30:51 | |
send them back to China. | 1:30:53 | |
And the, the main problem they had was the Chinese | 1:30:55 | |
government, and the countries | 1:30:59 | |
were not willing to accept them. | 1:31:02 | |
But at the same time, U.S. could have done a better job | 1:31:04 | |
to separate them from general public. | 1:31:10 | |
Since they know from day one, that they were not there | 1:31:12 | |
for the other reasons that some other people, | 1:31:17 | |
they thought that they were there for. | 1:31:20 | |
So they could have, you know, treat them a little bit better | 1:31:22 | |
when they left in 2003, all of them were in camp four. | 1:31:27 | |
Which is more like a medium security facility, | 1:31:34 | |
like a community community living with 10 people | 1:31:36 | |
in one cell block. | 1:31:40 | |
And when I came back after three years, they were all over. | 1:31:42 | |
Some of them were in punishment block Romeo. | 1:31:46 | |
And some of them were like in individual cells again. | 1:31:48 | |
And so I, I wish things were different. | 1:31:58 | |
Interviewer | So would you say it was worse | 1:32:03 |
when they came back in, | 1:32:05 | |
and you didn't understand why all of a sudden | 1:32:06 | |
their treatment was worse, | 1:32:09 | |
it seemed like, then when you left? | 1:32:10 | |
- | Don't understand. | 1:32:13 |
Interviewer | Do you know why the five people were , | 1:32:15 |
the first to be released? | 1:32:17 | |
Do you know how - | 1:32:19 | |
- | Because they were a non-enemy combatant. | 1:32:20 |
I still don't understand why they were not enemy combatants. | 1:32:21 | |
Rest of them are enemy combatants. | 1:32:25 | |
Interviewer | I had heard a story that you | 1:32:29 |
used to bring food with you when you went with the lawyers. | 1:32:31 | |
Can you tell us that story? | 1:32:34 | |
- | Yeah. Even when I was leaving in Guantanamo, | 1:32:36 |
the first- in 2003, the interrogators to allow me to cook | 1:32:40 | |
for them and bring food to the interrogation. | 1:32:44 | |
And they, that's the only time | 1:32:49 | |
they get to taste the Uyghur food. | 1:32:50 | |
So when I came back after three years | 1:32:53 | |
and I started to cook different meals, | 1:32:56 | |
and then bring it over to them, enjoy that. | 1:33:00 | |
Interviewer | Can you describe | 1:33:04 |
one of those meals that you cooked for them? | 1:33:05 | |
- | The very popular Uyghur dish that mostly men love, | 1:33:08 |
is handmade noodles call that Laghman. | 1:33:12 | |
And it's sort of like making spaghetti from the scratch. | 1:33:17 | |
It's really nice. | 1:33:21 | |
And I used to joke is to say Marco Polo went to Kashgar, | 1:33:23 | |
our region when he took his trip to Silk Road. | 1:33:28 | |
And that's where he learned how to make spaghetti, | 1:33:33 | |
and took it to Italy. | 1:33:36 | |
And this is the real noodles | 1:33:37 | |
And all of them love that. | 1:33:39 | |
So I made that one time when we arrived to the base usually, | 1:33:43 | |
we have no access to groceries. | 1:33:48 | |
The mini Mart is usually closed. | 1:33:50 | |
So there is no any kind of food. | 1:33:53 | |
We don't even get to eat much that day. | 1:33:56 | |
There's only one place called clipper club | 1:33:59 | |
and they have really greasy pizza. | 1:34:02 | |
And if you're really hungry, just eat that. | 1:34:03 | |
Otherwise just have some fruit and go to bed. | 1:34:06 | |
But at this time when I came, | 1:34:09 | |
I promised them previously that I was going to make Laghman | 1:34:12 | |
for them next time when I come. | 1:34:15 | |
So I brought up all the ingredients. | 1:34:17 | |
I got the some lamb and the vegetables and the vegetable oil | 1:34:19 | |
and flour and everything I need for making this dish. | 1:34:26 | |
And I stayed up till midnight to make that, | 1:34:32 | |
and bring it there next day when we met with them. | 1:34:34 | |
And usually use a chopstick to eat that, | 1:34:38 | |
we don't use chopsticks for a Uyghur meals | 1:34:41 | |
usually spoon or fork, but for this noodle dish | 1:34:44 | |
people use chopsticks and they, I forgot to chopsticks. | 1:34:47 | |
So the attorney handover two pens | 1:34:53 | |
and use this two pens as chopsticks, and he ate that. | 1:34:56 | |
And then he said, this was the best Laghman he ever had. | 1:35:01 | |
Interviewer | So then you would cook for all the Uyghurs? | 1:35:07 |
And the government led you bring all that food with you? | 1:35:10 | |
- | Yeah. | 1:35:13 |
Interviewer | So when the men were released, | 1:35:16 |
were you around from 2006 until when the men were released | 1:35:22 | |
to other countries like to Bermuda in Palau? | 1:35:29 | |
Were you involved in, in those releases? | 1:35:31 | |
- | Yeah. | 1:35:34 |
Interviewer | Could you describe, were you involved in | 1:35:36 |
negotiations? | 1:35:38 | |
Could you described exactly? | 1:35:39 | |
- | Bermuda, It happened in June last year. | 1:35:40 |
Before that the U.S. decided to take some | 1:35:47 | |
of the Uyghurs to the United States. | 1:35:52 | |
And they, I don't know if I could disclose this though. | 1:35:55 | |
Scratch that. | 1:36:00 | |
Okay, Bermuda, | 1:36:04 | |
that one day the attorneys | 1:36:07 | |
arranged phone call was 4 detainees, all 4 together. | 1:36:08 | |
And then I was translating for the call. | 1:36:12 | |
I was in California, Saban Willard was in Boston, | 1:36:15 | |
and then we called Guantanamo | 1:36:19 | |
and I knew something was going on, but did not exactly. | 1:36:21 | |
Saban's usually pretty good keeping secrets. | 1:36:26 | |
And the, so he told them | 1:36:30 | |
that there is a country is willing to accept them | 1:36:33 | |
and the move will happen pretty quickly. | 1:36:35 | |
And then he started telling them about Bermuda. | 1:36:39 | |
I was so excited for them, actually. | 1:36:43 | |
And they were quiet, just listen. | 1:36:46 | |
And after Saban finished telling them everything, | 1:36:49 | |
is just asked a few questions about the citizenship. | 1:36:53 | |
If when they go to Bermuda, | 1:37:00 | |
they can become a Bermudian citizen | 1:37:02 | |
Because they really concerned about that, | 1:37:04 | |
because they don't want to be a Chinese citizen | 1:37:06 | |
or stateless so China can claim over them | 1:37:09 | |
and take them back in the future. | 1:37:11 | |
So Saban says, yes, they will issue their passport. | 1:37:14 | |
And then Saban said, "I want you to think about this. | 1:37:16 | |
I call you back in two days." | 1:37:22 | |
I think this was Friday afternoon, | 1:37:24 | |
When we called and Saban says, | 1:37:26 | |
"I will arrange a phone call Sunday, get your answer. | 1:37:29 | |
If you would accept this offer or not. | 1:37:33 | |
I will notify the government on Monday." | 1:37:35 | |
And since he finished talking, one of them | 1:37:39 | |
(indistinct name) said Saban, | 1:37:42 | |
"you'll have my decision now. | 1:37:45 | |
I'm going, and I'm speaking for myself and I will go." | 1:37:47 | |
And then every one of them took the phone one by one | 1:37:53 | |
and "I am (indistinct name) and I'm going, I'm going." | 1:37:56 | |
and "I am (indistinct name) and I'm going." | 1:37:59 | |
And then "I am (indistinct name) And I'm going." | 1:38:01 | |
I was so exciting moment, you know, | 1:38:05 | |
finally after so many years. | 1:38:08 | |
So we didn't have to call them back on Sunday. | 1:38:10 | |
They made the decision right there. | 1:38:12 | |
And then do you want me to just | 1:38:16 | |
keep going about the move or? | 1:38:18 | |
Interviewer | Sure. And if you know why | 1:38:21 |
the government chose those four? | 1:38:22 | |
- | That related to the classified part | 1:38:25 |
that I shouldn't be talking about | 1:38:27 | |
Interviewer | Okay. | 1:38:30 |
- | All four of them were (indistinct name) clients, | 1:38:31 |
Saban Willard's clients. | 1:38:36 | |
So Saban went to Bermuda. | 1:38:39 | |
We didn't know which exact move is going to be, | 1:38:40 | |
but he told me | 1:38:45 | |
"be ready and stand standby position in a moment notice. | 1:38:46 | |
And I will let you know. | 1:38:52 | |
you will be on the plane on your way to Bermuda." | 1:38:54 | |
And he was already in Bermuda and I was like, | 1:38:58 | |
all packed them ready to go. | 1:39:00 | |
And he calls me one day and says, you know, | 1:39:02 | |
you'll be on the plane tomorrow morning. | 1:39:05 | |
So I got the Bermuda, | 1:39:07 | |
and we still don't know which exact date | 1:39:09 | |
or time the move is going to be. | 1:39:11 | |
I got there about four o'clock in the afternoon and they, | 1:39:14 | |
I thought they supposed to have a nice time | 1:39:19 | |
and have dinner in the evening, have a drink. | 1:39:22 | |
And then the move is going to be next day. | 1:39:25 | |
And then Saban calls me up, he said, | 1:39:31 | |
"all right then, don't sleep tonight. | 1:39:33 | |
We're we probably will be heading | 1:39:35 | |
to the airport about 10 o'clock at night." | 1:39:38 | |
So we did actually, we were at the airport. | 1:39:41 | |
The plane took off about 12, midnight. | 1:39:44 | |
Landed in Guantanamo about three o'clock in the morning, | 1:39:48 | |
and the bus was there and it was so exciting. | 1:39:53 | |
I ran up to the bus and these four guys are | 1:40:00 | |
sitting and just smiling and said "hi" to them, | 1:40:04 | |
and explain to them what's happening there. | 1:40:09 | |
And then they came out of the bus one by one, | 1:40:12 | |
got on the plane, and then we brought them | 1:40:15 | |
back to Bermuda by six o'clock in the morning. | 1:40:17 | |
Interviewer | Can you tell a bit about the story | 1:40:22 |
and what happened when they got to Bermuda. | 1:40:23 | |
Politics there? | 1:40:25 | |
- | Yeah. | 1:40:27 |
Apparently was this something happened | 1:40:30 | |
among the politicians in in United States previously, | 1:40:34 | |
and all the congressmen how they didn't | 1:40:42 | |
want any Guantanamo detainees coming into Guantanamo. | 1:40:43 | |
There were some talks and in the media report, | 1:40:48 | |
the unclassified information some Uyghurs | 1:40:51 | |
supposed to brought to the United States | 1:40:54 | |
and then U.S. Congress quickly passed the law that none | 1:40:56 | |
of the detainees from Guantanamo would be brought to U.S. | 1:41:02 | |
And so Premier Brown, | 1:41:07 | |
when he made the decision of accepting the Uyghurs | 1:41:09 | |
he was afraid if he consults his cabinet | 1:41:13 | |
then there will be some argument, | 1:41:15 | |
and they may even vote that down. | 1:41:20 | |
So he decided to keep it secret from everybody | 1:41:22 | |
in the cabinet, except the one Labor Minister. | 1:41:26 | |
He's the only one who knew what was happening | 1:41:28 | |
and the Premiere. | 1:41:31 | |
So, no one in Bermuda knew this was happening | 1:41:33 | |
And Great Britain, The Governor from great Britain | 1:41:37 | |
did not know anything. | 1:41:40 | |
So we landed early in the morning. | 1:41:43 | |
And then the Premier did a press release hour later, | 1:41:46 | |
and the people that we have four Uyghurs joined us | 1:41:49 | |
in Bermuda from Guantanamo. | 1:41:53 | |
people went just absolutely ballistic. | 1:41:56 | |
They were like, this is the dictatorship. | 1:42:00 | |
And we didn't know anything about this. | 1:42:04 | |
And the cabinet didn't know, | 1:42:06 | |
the Ministers didn't vote for this. | 1:42:07 | |
And then they started to have all kinds | 1:42:11 | |
of demonstrations and their rallies. | 1:42:14 | |
And actually they introduced a vote, no confidence vote | 1:42:17 | |
in the Premier to bring down the government. | 1:42:20 | |
And so we have been told that we need to do some lobbying, | 1:42:24 | |
to go out, talk to people and let Bermudan people | 1:42:30 | |
know who Uyghurs are, who these people are. | 1:42:34 | |
So we spent every day on the street, | 1:42:37 | |
walking on the street and where all the tourists are | 1:42:41 | |
or shops and go to different places. | 1:42:43 | |
Just talk to people, answer the questions. | 1:42:47 | |
At the beginning when this was all happening, | 1:42:51 | |
people had demonstrations saying | 1:42:56 | |
that Premier leave or, you know, like a step down | 1:42:59 | |
or resign or get rid of the Premier with four Uyghurs. | 1:43:03 | |
They don't belong here. | 1:43:07 | |
Those terrorists, they don't belong to Bermuda. | 1:43:09 | |
Tell them to go wherever they come from, | 1:43:11 | |
tell them to go to the U.S., all kinds of things like that. | 1:43:14 | |
Very negative. | 1:43:18 | |
And then after few days of lobbying, | 1:43:20 | |
meeting with people, going talking to media | 1:43:24 | |
and we had an hour television life show | 1:43:28 | |
answering their questions. | 1:43:31 | |
The next day when they had the big rally, | 1:43:34 | |
was like 10,000 people in front of the government. | 1:43:37 | |
The signs changed to 'Premier go, Uyghurs stay.' | 1:43:41 | |
Because they start to see the Uyghurs. | 1:43:47 | |
And then I started to talk to everybody, explaining to them. | 1:43:49 | |
Now, you know these people and we are really grateful | 1:43:56 | |
You open up your door and accept them. | 1:44:00 | |
But without you knowing them, if the Premier had talked | 1:44:02 | |
to his Ministers, do you think they will allow them to come? | 1:44:08 | |
It wouldn't happen. | 1:44:11 | |
So the Premier made this decision. | 1:44:12 | |
So, at least you have chance to see these men. | 1:44:15 | |
To give them an opportunity, give them the chance | 1:44:19 | |
to show you who they are. | 1:44:23 | |
And so we just continued doing our work | 1:44:25 | |
To let people know who we are, who Uyghurs are, | 1:44:29 | |
who this these four men. | 1:44:32 | |
I supposed to be there only for five days, actually. | 1:44:34 | |
But then, then they realized - | 1:44:38 | |
also the four me there, they were so scared for themselves | 1:44:41 | |
because they didn't know what was going to happen. | 1:44:44 | |
If the world goes on the, the negative way, if they get rid | 1:44:46 | |
of the Premier, his decision would get overturned. | 1:44:52 | |
And they may send back somewhere who knows where. | 1:44:54 | |
Maybe Guantanamo, or what will happen to them. | 1:44:57 | |
So they were scared. | 1:45:01 | |
They didn't want me to leave. | 1:45:02 | |
And also the government Premiere in Bermuda. | 1:45:04 | |
He wanted me to extend my stay until the vote passes or not. | 1:45:08 | |
Until a certain point the government become more stable. | 1:45:13 | |
So I extended for another two more weeks. | 1:45:17 | |
I stayed there all together for like over three weeks. | 1:45:19 | |
And meanwhile, when all this happening, | 1:45:23 | |
about the week after they arrive in Bermuda, | 1:45:26 | |
Palauan government announced that | 1:45:30 | |
they were going to accept the rest of the Uyghurs. | 1:45:33 | |
And the rest of the Uyghurs but one, actually. | 1:45:35 | |
And the Palau was sending a delegation to Guantanamo | 1:45:40 | |
to meet with the rest of the Uyghurs. | 1:45:44 | |
And Then all that Uyghurs in Guantanamo, | 1:45:47 | |
they asked me to come with the government. | 1:45:49 | |
They want me to be there. | 1:45:52 | |
And the attorneys are calling me, | 1:45:54 | |
some of the attorneys, | 1:45:55 | |
saying that we need you in Guantanamo. | 1:45:56 | |
And then the guys in Bermuda says, | 1:45:59 | |
"no you can't leave us here." | 1:46:00 | |
So I was like, torn between staying in Bermuda | 1:46:02 | |
try to help the government and the four guys there, | 1:46:05 | |
And then this is also important | 1:46:08 | |
for the rest of the guys in Guantanamo. | 1:46:10 | |
So I didn't know what to do at that point. | 1:46:13 | |
Then finally decide to stay in Bermuda | 1:46:17 | |
because these four guys in Bermuda that was telling me | 1:46:19 | |
"If you go, you just explain to them what Palau is, | 1:46:22 | |
And they will think about it and make their decisions. | 1:46:25 | |
But we need you here. | 1:46:27 | |
This is our future, or they could send us back." | 1:46:28 | |
So I decided to stay in Bermuda. | 1:46:31 | |
And then they, they, Palauan government, | 1:46:34 | |
they just use the government translator there at the base. | 1:46:37 | |
It wasn't me. | 1:46:40 | |
Then when I went back a month later with the attorneys, | 1:46:41 | |
the guys in Guantanamo were upset with me. | 1:46:45 | |
Sort of disappointed that I didn't come. | 1:46:49 | |
And they, also that the translator told them everything | 1:46:52 | |
about what Palauan and governments that they want me to go | 1:46:56 | |
through everything all over again | 1:46:58 | |
because they don't trust anybody but me. | 1:47:00 | |
So that was interesting. | 1:47:04 | |
Interviewer | What is the result in Bermuda? | 1:47:06 |
- | It was, they had the vote. | 1:47:09 |
Well, it, the cabinet met from four o'clock in the afternoon | 1:47:12 | |
and they had discussion and the session went | 1:47:18 | |
on until 6:00 AM next day, without sleeping | 1:47:22 | |
without taking break. Then six o'clock in the morning | 1:47:26 | |
it went over in favor for the Premier. | 1:47:31 | |
So he's still the Premier. | 1:47:33 | |
Interviewer | And could you tell us a little bit | 1:47:38 |
about then when you spoke to the men in Palau? | 1:47:39 | |
Not all of them chose to go to Palau and how that was? | 1:47:43 | |
- | Hmm. They, number one, Palau, being an Island, | 1:47:50 |
such a remote Island in the middle of nowhere | 1:47:56 | |
After being in incarceration for almost eight years. | 1:48:01 | |
And they, they do feel that it was really unfair | 1:48:06 | |
for them to be in the jail like that | 1:48:12 | |
for so many years after they cleared innocent | 1:48:15 | |
They think that they should be able | 1:48:19 | |
to go someplace that's more stable, | 1:48:22 | |
and that they want to just go settle in one place instead | 1:48:25 | |
of go there for temporarily and move somewhere else. | 1:48:29 | |
And the Palau is a temporary solution because | 1:48:32 | |
of the climate and that there is no Uyghur community here | 1:48:36 | |
and it's such a small place. | 1:48:41 | |
And they didn't want to stay here | 1:48:44 | |
for the rest of their lives. | 1:48:46 | |
So the rest of the seven, actually five, | 1:48:48 | |
who didn't want to come to Palau is the reasons | 1:48:54 | |
they want to go to a country that's not an Island. | 1:48:57 | |
Two of them, they are brothers. | 1:49:06 | |
The one didn't get an offer | 1:49:08 | |
because of some health issues he has | 1:49:10 | |
and his brother wanted to stay with him. | 1:49:14 | |
He didn't want to leave him behind. | 1:49:15 | |
The other five refused Palau because it is an Island. | 1:49:17 | |
Xinjiang, the man called it (indistinct) | 1:49:22 | |
is the most landlock region in the world. | 1:49:28 | |
The city I was born and raised from | 1:49:31 | |
is that the most inland city in the world. | 1:49:33 | |
Away from any kind of body of water, like sea or ocean. | 1:49:35 | |
So people from our region, we are not really used | 1:49:39 | |
to the the tropical climate or water and the Island. | 1:49:46 | |
Actually, interesting They joke seven, eight years in, | 1:49:52 | |
in Guantanamo Bay hearing the ocean, the sea. | 1:49:59 | |
Seeing from the distance, | 1:50:06 | |
they have never been into the water and they ended | 1:50:07 | |
up in Island, in Bermuda and Palau. | 1:50:11 | |
So the other seven, they decide to stay in Guantanamo. | 1:50:14 | |
Interviewer | And how, I guess I'll talk | 1:50:22 |
a little about you and then maybe | 1:50:27 | |
we'll talk a bit more about the men. | 1:50:28 | |
But how has these last eight years affected your life? | 1:50:30 | |
Have you seen your life change over these eight years? | 1:50:33 | |
- | Yeah. I used to have only three children. | 1:50:39 |
Now I have twenty-two more. | 1:50:42 | |
So they feel that I am a mother figure. | 1:50:45 | |
I call them my children. | 1:50:48 | |
So I felt that I have responsibilities | 1:50:51 | |
over twenty-two more people than just my three kids. | 1:50:55 | |
And then again, you know, me to myself. | 1:51:00 | |
Like the men always say that they had so much faith | 1:51:07 | |
and trust in United States government, | 1:51:11 | |
but turned out to be that was not what they expected. | 1:51:14 | |
And they were disappointed. | 1:51:17 | |
I was too. | 1:51:18 | |
I was disappointed in a legal system in U.S. | 1:51:20 | |
And the the constitution we have in this great country, | 1:51:23 | |
how our forefathers built this country based on values. | 1:51:30 | |
What happened in Guantanamo was not | 1:51:36 | |
what I understood of the constitution. | 1:51:38 | |
I often think that what if you know, forefathers, they see | 1:51:42 | |
they know what's happening today in Guantanamo | 1:51:49 | |
how they feel about this. | 1:51:52 | |
But, and they always have my faith | 1:51:55 | |
and trust in government that they are going to | 1:51:58 | |
correct this mistake and do the right thing. | 1:52:01 | |
Especially when president Obama came | 1:52:03 | |
to the office almost like next day | 1:52:06 | |
he announced that he was going to shut | 1:52:09 | |
down Guantanamo within one year. | 1:52:12 | |
And I was so excited, I had tears in my eyes. | 1:52:14 | |
Finally, finally, it's going to be corrected. | 1:52:17 | |
You know, everybody makes mistakes | 1:52:21 | |
but the most important thing is who's | 1:52:24 | |
willing to correct that mistake. | 1:52:26 | |
But now we are approaching that deadline | 1:52:29 | |
in a couple of weeks and it's not going to happen. | 1:52:33 | |
So those are the kinds of things disappoints me and I, | 1:52:36 | |
I guess my 20 years in the United States, | 1:52:40 | |
I always want to see the great side of the United States. | 1:52:46 | |
But then last eight years, what I have endured; | 1:52:53 | |
what I have experienced in Guantanamo, | 1:52:56 | |
it was not the side that I want | 1:52:59 | |
to see out of my country here. | 1:53:00 | |
Interviewer | Did it change your life? | 1:53:05 |
- | I got the divorced while I was working in Guantanamo. | 1:53:09 |
Did it change my life? | 1:53:17 | |
Yeah. | 1:53:18 | |
I realized that the many things that we take | 1:53:20 | |
for granted that we shouldn't. | 1:53:22 | |
People need to do their responsibility | 1:53:25 | |
to protect what they believe, what they value. | 1:53:28 | |
Things could change in overnight, | 1:53:33 | |
changed somebody's life and a future. | 1:53:34 | |
Like these people. | 1:53:37 | |
One day they were just surviving | 1:53:40 | |
as any ordinary person, | 1:53:44 | |
just fighting for their future to have better life. | 1:53:46 | |
Like what you and I have. | 1:53:49 | |
The next day, they were in Guantanamo | 1:53:52 | |
labeled one of the worst of the worst. | 1:53:55 | |
And then one day they have been told that they're innocent, | 1:53:58 | |
and they will be going someplace safe | 1:54:01 | |
for them and live normal life. | 1:54:04 | |
Then next day they are enemy combatants | 1:54:06 | |
of the United States. | 1:54:08 | |
Yeah, things are not what this seems to be. | 1:54:13 | |
Interviewer | How do your children see their mother? | 1:54:18 |
Watching their mother do over these past eight years? | 1:54:21 | |
- | I guess all three of them, you know, | 1:54:28 |
including my little one, the one who just turned 13. | 1:54:29 | |
They know so much more about Guantanamo | 1:54:33 | |
than probably some of the adults in the United States. | 1:54:36 | |
It was very educational for them, | 1:54:42 | |
that they keep track of the news. | 1:54:44 | |
What's going on in Guantanamo. | 1:54:47 | |
When they hear something | 1:54:48 | |
about Guantanamo, they go, mom, mom | 1:54:49 | |
there's something about Guantanamo on that TV. | 1:54:51 | |
And also, you know sometimes | 1:54:54 | |
they ask some difficult questions. | 1:54:58 | |
Like why are we doing this to these people? | 1:55:00 | |
Why our government is holding | 1:55:03 | |
the innocent boy who's Guantanamo? | 1:55:05 | |
And they tried to explain to them, | 1:55:07 | |
I don't want to put like negative feelings | 1:55:09 | |
in their heart about our governments. | 1:55:11 | |
I tried to tell them that it's just a difficult situation | 1:55:13 | |
and U.S. is doing their best to deal with it. | 1:55:17 | |
So it impact their lives as well. | 1:55:22 | |
Interviewer | Looking back to the 2002, | 1:55:27 |
when you were first got that phone call | 1:55:31 | |
from the Titan corporation. | 1:55:33 | |
Are you glad you said yes? | 1:55:35 | |
- | Yes, of course. | 1:55:38 |
I'm glad they said yes. | 1:55:39 | |
I had lifetime experience | 1:55:43 | |
and got to know so many different things that I had no idea. | 1:55:45 | |
And I helped both the U.S. government to get | 1:55:51 | |
to the bottom of these people, who they are | 1:55:56 | |
till the point that I helped twenty-two people | 1:56:00 | |
with their times in incarceration, in Guantanamo. | 1:56:03 | |
Interviewer | Did you and the Uyghurs | 1:56:10 |
help the image of the Uyghurs? | 1:56:12 | |
A lot of us didn't know | 1:56:15 | |
about the Uyghurs before they were captured really. | 1:56:17 | |
- | Every time when I go to Guantanamo, | 1:56:22 |
when I face these men | 1:56:23 | |
And then when they are so disappointed about being in jail | 1:56:25 | |
and their life is passing by so many years, passing by all | 1:56:29 | |
of this, tell them, but it's not passing by for nothing. | 1:56:33 | |
You are doing a great contribution | 1:56:37 | |
to the world to know who Uyghurs are. | 1:56:40 | |
Because eight years ago, nobody ever even heard of Uyghurs. | 1:56:44 | |
Because communist government like China, | 1:56:49 | |
they suppress the region so harshly. | 1:56:52 | |
And that's one way of keeping the Uyghur there, | 1:56:58 | |
and the not let the world know what's going on there. | 1:57:01 | |
So the world population | 1:57:05 | |
and the people in United States, people in Europe, | 1:57:07 | |
they didn't know anything about Uyghurs, | 1:57:11 | |
but because of these twenty-two men in Guantanamo, | 1:57:13 | |
it became such a public. | 1:57:16 | |
Right now, if you sit on the plan | 1:57:18 | |
and the person sitting next to you | 1:57:23 | |
asks you where you're from,. | 1:57:25 | |
When I say I'm Uyghur, they'll know, "Oh yeah, Uyghur." | 1:57:27 | |
8 years ago, 10 years ago, when I say Uyghur, | 1:57:30 | |
they look at me strangely. | 1:57:34 | |
What's that? | 1:57:35 | |
So now it's like because of the twenty-two years, | 1:57:38 | |
twenty-two men's life in the Guantanamo; | 1:57:43 | |
the world population got to know who the Uyghur people are. | 1:57:46 | |
So it's actually really positive contribution. | 1:57:51 | |
Interviewer | Where do you see your life going once, | 1:57:57 |
if Guantanamo ever closes? | 1:58:01 | |
- | I'll be doing doing my job | 1:58:05 |
and being mom to my three children, | 1:58:07 | |
and also those twenty-two men. | 1:58:09 | |
I guess I still stay closely with every one of them. | 1:58:11 | |
I have been to Albania three or four times since 2006. | 1:58:14 | |
And the, I am in like a weekly communication with them. | 1:58:19 | |
They call me up all the time. | 1:58:24 | |
And so I probably will continue just to helping them | 1:58:27 | |
with whatever they need and then live my life. | 1:58:33 | |
Interviewer | I heard you became a grandmother recently. | 1:58:37 |
- | Yes. | 1:58:40 |
We have our first Guantanamo baby | 1:58:41 | |
was born in Albania last month, a baby girl. | 1:58:44 | |
One of the men got married | 1:58:49 | |
and they have a first baby | 1:58:51 | |
When they went to Guantanamo last month, three weeks ago | 1:58:55 | |
when I delivered this news | 1:58:59 | |
to the men in Guantanamo, they were so happy. | 1:59:01 | |
And I told them that, guess what? | 1:59:06 | |
You are not twenty-two Uyghurs from Guantanamo anymore. | 1:59:08 | |
There is twenty-third one. | 1:59:11 | |
They were really happy for that. | 1:59:14 | |
Interviewer | And do you think the men | 1:59:16 |
will ultimately have a better life over the years? | 1:59:17 | |
Do you see any hope for the men over the years? | 1:59:21 | |
Once, you know, as time moves on? | 1:59:25 | |
- | You mean the ones being released? | 1:59:28 |
Interviewer | Yeah. | 1:59:30 |
- | Yeah. They're all trying really hard. | 1:59:32 |
The ones in Albania, they are trying to get jobs. | 1:59:35 | |
Now they have work permits and the, | 1:59:41 | |
the ones in the Bermuda, they already working. | 1:59:44 | |
They're doing really good. | 1:59:49 | |
And the, the ones in Palau here, they are going to school. | 1:59:51 | |
I talked to their English teacher yesterday, | 1:59:55 | |
and she was telling me how great they are | 1:59:58 | |
and how they are trying so hard. | 2:00:01 | |
And at the beginning, they were afraid | 2:00:07 | |
of opening their mouth and actually speaking English. | 2:00:10 | |
Also, they understand they don't want to speak. | 2:00:12 | |
In just, in three weeks now, | 2:00:15 | |
every one of them start to speak. | 2:00:16 | |
And she said that at the beginning she felt | 2:00:19 | |
that being a female and these men have been in Guantanamo | 2:00:25 | |
for so many years, didn't know what to expect, | 2:00:29 | |
but she said that they are so respectful, respectful to her. | 2:00:33 | |
She's really pleased that she | 2:00:37 | |
had this opportunity to teach them. | 2:00:39 | |
And she was even asking me, | 2:00:41 | |
"do you think if there's any opportunity | 2:00:43 | |
that they would bring their families over from China?" | 2:00:45 | |
I said, "well I don't know." | 2:00:50 | |
She said, "I offered them. | 2:00:52 | |
If anyone comes from their families | 2:00:55 | |
they can stay and live in my house." | 2:00:57 | |
So.. | 2:01:00 | |
Interviewer | Do you think their families | 2:01:02 |
could ever come from China? | 2:01:03 | |
- | Well, looking at the four years in Albania, | 2:01:06 |
they had been released four years ago. | 2:01:10 | |
Some of them has wives and children, | 2:01:13 | |
and we're not be able to get them out | 2:01:16 | |
because Chinese government is not issuing passports. | 2:01:17 | |
It's hard to tell if that will happen or not. | 2:01:22 | |
Interviewer | Well, do you, I guess Rushan, | 2:01:34 |
do you have any final thoughts, observations about | 2:01:37 | |
all that happened in the last eight years or the future, | 2:01:39 | |
or just things I didn't ask that you'd just like to share. | 2:01:42 | |
- | I think we pretty much covered everything | 2:01:46 |
and they just want to thank you for what you are doing. | 2:01:48 | |
Interviewer | Thank you, it was amazing. | 2:01:51 |
Thank you. | 2:01:52 | |
- | [Female Crew Member] Can I just ask, | 2:01:53 |
confirm in your opinion with | 2:01:56 | |
all the information that you had, | 2:02:00 | |
did you have any doubts that all | 2:02:05 | |
of the Uyghurs from Guantanamo were innocent | 2:02:08 | |
of conspiring against the United States? | 2:02:13 | |
- | I don't have any doubts. | 2:02:16 |
I have talked to them from day one | 2:02:17 | |
and the love and the trust and respect they had | 2:02:22 | |
toward the Americans and the United States. | 2:02:25 | |
And even after what happened was Chinese delegation. | 2:02:29 | |
Even after it seven, eight years being | 2:02:32 | |
in a jail when they came out today | 2:02:34 | |
when you ask them, | 2:02:37 | |
privately, when I talked to them | 2:02:38 | |
when I asked them, how do you feel about United States now? | 2:02:40 | |
They say, if they wanted to hurt us, | 2:02:44 | |
they could have sent us back to China. | 2:02:50 | |
and all this years how much | 2:02:53 | |
Chinese government pressured United States. | 2:02:55 | |
And we understand that the China always wanted to | 2:02:57 | |
pick us back, the U.S. protected us. | 2:03:01 | |
So we don't have any hard feelings. | 2:03:04 | |
Yes, we don't trust them | 2:03:07 | |
defending Uyghur people's human rights | 2:03:09 | |
like the way we did at the beginning. | 2:03:14 | |
But I guess every country thinks about their own benefit | 2:03:16 | |
and U.S. is thinking about their own benefit. | 2:03:20 | |
And if we had the country, | 2:03:23 | |
we would have done the same thing, probably. | 2:03:24 | |
So we can't judge U.S. for that. | 2:03:26 | |
Interviewer | I guess we're done | 2:03:34 |
- | [Female Crew Member] I just wanted that on tape | 2:03:37 |
in case there ever is a sound bite. | 2:03:38 |
Item Info
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