Elizabeth Pitts interview recording, 1995 July 24

Download
- Rights
- Limited Re-Use
  CC BY-NC 4.0
  More Rights Info
- Files (2)
- MP3 Part 1
- MP3 Part 2
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
Document
- btvct04037.pdf
Share

Embed Code
<iframe src='//idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4222wm8t?embed=true' height='125px' width='100%' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen></iframe>
Permalink

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4222wm8t
Skip to Item Info

Loading the media player...

Files for this Item

Transcript

Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.

Stacey Scales	Okay. And where were you born Mrs. Pitts?	0:01
Elizabeth Pitts	Right here in the LeFlore County out on—You know where 49 and 82? The by-pass that you came by?	0:04
Stacey Scales	Yes.	0:15
Elizabeth Pitts	Right. Well do you remember before you got there, did you remember seeing the little tin building sitting?	0:15
Stacey Scales	I think I know. It was right there in the intersection.	0:20
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. But before you got there, you see something like a little old house where they sell firecrackers. And so tin buildings for people to use now for a little—The Whites use it for a cafe or store or something. Did you see that?	0:22
Stacey Scales	I don't remember seeing it, I'm going to look for it on the way back.	0:36
Elizabeth Pitts	All right. Well I was raised up right behind in that corner, behind that store, behind that tin building. There was a store sitting there then, but the store burned down. I was raised up back there.	0:38
Stacey Scales	And did your family have land over there?	0:48
Elizabeth Pitts	No.	0:50
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	0:50
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Sharecropping, farming.	0:52
Stacey Scales	Sharecropping?	0:54
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-hmm.	0:55
Stacey Scales	And what are your earliest memories from growing up?	0:59
Elizabeth Pitts	I went to school right there at Pillars Chapel. Right there, did you see a church sitting there?	1:06
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	1:10
Elizabeth Pitts	That's where I went to school. I was born at the plantation. I was raised up on that same plantation. Wades. L.W. Wades plantation.	1:11
Stacey Scales	Right.	1:19
Elizabeth Pitts	All my kids, I got 10 kids, they all was born there.	1:21
Stacey Scales	And you said you went to school at Pillars?	1:26
Elizabeth Pitts	Pillars Chapel.	1:28
Stacey Scales	Okay. Pillars Chapel. And was that for all Black children?	1:33
Elizabeth Pitts	Right.	1:34
Stacey Scales	Okay.	1:35
Elizabeth Pitts	At the time, it was a Rosenwald School.	1:36
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	1:38
Elizabeth Pitts	And the storm came in '42 and blew it down, blew it away. So they built that back. And that's where we went to school at the church there.	1:41
Stacey Scales	And where'd you all have school after that building got blown down?	1:51
Elizabeth Pitts	So the building got blown away, it was an old house, they had a house down side of that road. They had classes in there for a while.	1:58
Stacey Scales	You remember your teachers?	2:06
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. Before the school blow way, it was Ms. Ida Simpson and Mrs. Larry.	2:08
Stacey Scales	Okay.	2:21
Elizabeth Pitts	And Ms. Mary Hinson.	2:21
Stacey Scales	And what type of lessons would you learn?	2:24
Elizabeth Pitts	We had had reading, we had math, we had spelling, we had history, and that's basic. We had science.	2:27
Stacey Scales	Okay. Did they ever talk about Black history or Black pride?	2:45
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, yes. She was able talk about how Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves, see, back then.	2:50
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	2:58
Elizabeth Pitts	Because all this other stuff wasn't happening then. Like civil rights and stuff, that wasn't yet. That hadn't existed yet.	3:01
Stacey Scales	Right.	3:11
Elizabeth Pitts	So they didn't talk too much about it.	3:11
Stacey Scales	The other stuff.	3:15
Elizabeth Pitts	Right. Because basically you couldn't talk too much about things like that.	3:15
Stacey Scales	Being raised on that place, how did the system work? The sharecropping system?	3:23
Elizabeth Pitts	Okay. Come the first of the year, come March, they would give you something called furnace. They would give you money to buy food to work the crop with, to work. And they would have a store, which was called a commissary store. And you would get your clothes from that store on the place there, and you'd buy your food. We had a store that you buy your food on the place. It was called a commissary store. And you run out of food, you went there and got it, but you paid for it at the end of the year, out your crop. See. We chopped.	3:30
Stacey Scales	How much did you get paid for—	4:15
Elizabeth Pitts	When I started working by the day getting paid, they was giving us $3 a day.	4:23
Stacey Scales	Okay.	4:29
Elizabeth Pitts	But when you was working your own field, you didn't get no pay. See, not right then. You work your crop and like I told you, they'd give us a little money to buy food with. Furnace they would call it.	4:32
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	4:46
Elizabeth Pitts	And you'd get there every two weeks. And then when you chopped the cotton and you'd lay it by, then when time to pick the cotton, you picked your cotton. You picked your cotton and then they'd take it to the gin and they would gin it. So you didn't get much out of that right then. You might get $5 off a bale of seeds or $6, but you didn't get very much out of that. At the end of the year, when you sell the cotton, then you would either get something or you wouldn't. Because I remember one year we picked out 34 bales of cotton and come out in the hole. Come out behind. Which mean that you didn't get nothing	4:47
Stacey Scales	Picked 34 bales of cotton—	5:36
Elizabeth Pitts	We picked out 34 bales of cotton—	5:38
Stacey Scales	—and didn't get nothing?	5:38
Elizabeth Pitts	—nothing. But then he would lend your money. The boss man would lend you money then to get you through the winter. See. And then the next year when you farming the next year, you paid that money back at the next crop.	5:40
Stacey Scales	And your parents went through that process?	5:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. My parents went through that.	5:56
Stacey Scales	Did they ever get suspicious of that? The way that worked?	5:59
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, if they got suspicious, wasn't very much they could do unless you left. Unless you move. You could move, you could always move. But you didn't have anything. You raised your food. We had hogs, cows, chickens, ducks, turkeys. We raised most of our food. And then you would have a big garden, then you'd can your food. We didn't have deep freezers because you couldn't afford it. At the time back then, you didn't have a refrigerator neither. You had something called a ice box. Ah-huh. You could buy 25 pounds of ice or you could buy 50 pounds of ice and put it in the—It had a top like the refrigerator. You would just put the ice up in there.	6:02
Stacey Scales	Right. How long would it keep for?	6:53
Elizabeth Pitts	It would keep sometime two days.	6:54
Stacey Scales	Okay.	6:56
Elizabeth Pitts	It would keep sometime two days. And you put your food around that and that's what you had. Sure did.	6:57
Stacey Scales	And did anybody decide to leave that place?	7:08
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, people would move all the time, but more would move in. They would move and move to the next plantation and somebody else would take their house. When they moved somebody else would take their house?	7:11
Stacey Scales	Did anybody ever stand up to those bosses?	7:23
Elizabeth Pitts	No.	7:25
Stacey Scales	No? What would happen if they did?	7:27
Elizabeth Pitts	No telling what would happen. You didn't have no freedom. No. You did as you was told. You did what you was told to do. At that time, nobody said nothing. Just took what went on and went on.	7:31
Stacey Scales	Did your mother and father ever talk about it amongst themselves?	7:50
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, I don't know. If they did. I didn't hear. Because at that time, older people didn't talk around children.	7:58
Stacey Scales	Did you have to leave school to pick cotton?	8:04
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Uh-huh. I didn't have to. But some of the guys and some of the boys, bigger boys did.	8:06
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	8:13
Elizabeth Pitts	They had to leave school to go to work. But I was fortunate enough I didn't have to leave to go to work.	8:14
Stacey Scales	Okay. So did they treat the girls different than they treated the boys?	8:21
Elizabeth Pitts	At school? Or where?	8:24
Stacey Scales	Deciding about education and work?	8:26
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, the boys lived on plantation too. So if there's something to do, they had to stop and go do it. Like plow or hull, whatever the boss had for them to do.	8:29
Stacey Scales	Sure. Okay.	8:43
Elizabeth Pitts	They had to leave and go do that. But the girls never did leave school.	8:46
Stacey Scales	Did your neighbors get together and try to help each other?	8:51
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh yeah, they would help each other. You had cows or something, you would give your neighbors milk. If they didn't have, you'd give them milk and butter, or if you had a garden and they didn't have one, you'd share your garden with them. Yeah, they would help each other. And on Sundays, we were glad when Sundays come so we could go somewhere, to church. That was all. If you wasn't going to school or church, you was at home. We didn't do a lot of visiting.	8:57
Stacey Scales	No in between, huh?	9:22
Elizabeth Pitts	No, we didn't do a lot of visiting. We stayed home.	9:24
Stacey Scales	So was there anything to do for fun when you were growing up?	9:29
Elizabeth Pitts	Well no. We had record players.	9:33
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	9:38
Elizabeth Pitts	A Graphophone, we got to wind it. That's what we had. And my aunt, they was older, they was teenagers at the time, so I was younger. So that's what they did for fun.	9:38
Stacey Scales	Were your grandparents on that land too?	9:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, my grandparents was on that. My grandparents, my daddy, his brother and three sisters. It was a big family of us.	9:56
Stacey Scales	Did you ever talk to your grandparents about their times when they were coming along?	10:08
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. They would just talk about basic. They had to work just like we were working then. They had to work too. But only they didn't get as much when they were working as we got when we were working, when I was coming up.	10:13
Stacey Scales	Right.	10:27
Elizabeth Pitts	See. Because they had said they worked for 25 cents a day. They had said they worked for 25 cents a day.	10:27
Stacey Scales	Did they talk about stories from slavery time?	10:36
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, no they wasn't here at slavery time, but their parents was.	10:41
Stacey Scales	Did they ever used to sit around and talk about that?	10:49
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, if they did, I don't remember too much about them talking about slavery.	10:52
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	10:58
Elizabeth Pitts	Because they wasn't here in slavery.	11:01
Stacey Scales	How did your parents make it through the tough times?	11:03
Elizabeth Pitts	They would can, we would kill hogs when it get cold. You couldn't kill them hogs till they get cold because your meat was ruin. When it get cold, we would kill hogs and salted the meat down.	11:12
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah. How would they kill those hogs?	11:25
Elizabeth Pitts	They had rifles, they would shoot them in the head, shoot them through the head.	11:30
Stacey Scales	Right.	11:33
Elizabeth Pitts	And then stab them, put them in a hot water and cleaned them and make a—They had something like that to—	11:33
Stacey Scales	Like a triangle to hang it up?	11:43
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Hang them up and gut them. Cut the meat up. There was a certain bone in the ham you had to take out that would ruin the meat. They would take that out and split the ham and put the salt all down in it and salt it, pack it down, somewhere in the smokehouse or something, and let it stay there for three weeks and take it up and wash it. Hang it up in a smokehouse, you'll hang it up, make a smoke under it and smoke it and dry it out. And then you put it in a bag to keep flies and stuff off it. And then you hang up in your smokehouse.	11:44
Stacey Scales	And then it would be shared with everyone?	12:22
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. They'd cook just like your parents now cook.	12:23
Stacey Scales	Right.	12:26
Elizabeth Pitts	The parents cooked just like we cook now. But you just didn't have no lot of money and no nice things.	12:27
Stacey Scales	Okay. Now did people use the plants and herbs when people got sick? Different plants and roots?	12:36
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes, it was a weed called gypsum weed. It stunk.	12:46
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	12:59
Elizabeth Pitts	And if you had fever they'd take that and put it to your head.	12:59
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	13:01
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. If you had a sprain or something, they'd take that and beat it and put it in a poultice and lay it on it.	13:03
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	13:09
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	13:09
Stacey Scales	So it was multipurpose?	13:10
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Yeah. But roots and herbs they didn't fool with that. My parents didn't.	13:12
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	13:16
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	13:16
Stacey Scales	Okay.	13:16
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. My parents didn't fool with that. Yeah.	13:16
Stacey Scales	Who delivered the babies?	13:23
Elizabeth Pitts	It was a lady the women then they called midwives. They would deliver the babies. Was a lady called Miss Cynthia Reed, she was a midwife. And Miss Irene Lynns, which is right around here now, I think. Somewhere around on Star Street now.	13:27
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	13:50
Elizabeth Pitts	She delivered babies.	13:51
Stacey Scales	And how did they learn how to do that now?	14:02
Elizabeth Pitts	Now I don't know. That I don't know. I don't know how they learned but they learned.	14:03
Stacey Scales	Were there Black doctors back then?	14:07
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes, a few. Because I remember back in the sixties there was a Black doctor here, Dr. Lane. He was Black. Right here in Greenwood. Sure was.	14:09
Stacey Scales	And that storm that took place in 1942, did that ruin the crops?	14:30
Elizabeth Pitts	It was in March. The crops wasn't planted yet.	14:39
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	14:44
Elizabeth Pitts	Crops wasn't planted yet. It was the 16th day of March 1942. The crops wasn't planted yet.	14:46
Stacey Scales	And what happened on that day that stands out in your memory?	14:51
Elizabeth Pitts	We had to walk to school. We didn't have transportation, we didn't have buses. And the teacher, she had to walk too. So the sun would come out, it was thundering back in the west off and on all day. And the sun would come out and stay out a few minutes, then it would go under, and then two or three drops of rain, little shower of rain. Then a few minutes the sun would come out again. But the cloud just kept hanging back in the west. She said, "Well the cloud looks so bad, I'm going to let y'all go so we can get home before it rain," because we don't want to get wet. So she let us out early and she went on home and we went home. And we'd gotten home, and by the time we got home and we ate—And my granddaddy, he was from Gloster, Mississippi, from down around below Jackson. He had saw storms before. We had never saw them. We had never witnessed no tornado.	14:55
Elizabeth Pitts	And it just kept thundering. And so about four o'clock we heard a roaring, sound. Like a train coming. And he was out there. He would always split—I don't know if you ever heard, tell the people used to split clouds with a ax and make them go around. They'll split.	15:58
Stacey Scales	Split them with what?.	16:21
Elizabeth Pitts	With a ax. Take a ax. If a dark cloud is back this way, you stick a ax in the ground. It's a certain way you stick that ax in the cloud, will part.	16:22
Stacey Scales	Okay.	16:31
Elizabeth Pitts	So when he said, "Oh this cloud is bad now. This cloud is bad out here." And he said, "Y'all better come on out there it's a tornado coming." So I was small, about 12. And he told me to, "Come on." And we had a big peach orchard into a garden. There was a garden out there and then a big peach orchard out there. And so he called them out, and some of us come out the house and some of them didn't. So my dad and my mom, they stayed on in the house and my auntie.	16:32
Stacey Scales	Okay.	17:03
Elizabeth Pitts	And he called me out and he caught me by the hand and he said, "Come on." And took me to the garden and laid down. He laid me down and told me to hold the tree. And then he laid over me and held the tree like this. And it got so dark that you couldn't even see. I couldn't see him right there side of me. And it was so dark. And then everything was just gone.	17:05
Stacey Scales	So why do he take you outside?	17:30
Elizabeth Pitts	To keep me from getting blown away.	17:33
Stacey Scales	In the house?	17:35
Elizabeth Pitts	Right.	17:36
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	17:36
Elizabeth Pitts	See he called all of us out. Me and my grandmother, she was out, she was laying holding another tree.	17:37
Stacey Scales	Right.	17:46
Elizabeth Pitts	And my aunt, she was holding the tree. All of us. He said, "Y'all stretch out and hold them trees." And we just laid out and held the trees. And by me being a child, he just laid over me. See.	17:47
Stacey Scales	Right.	17:59
Elizabeth Pitts	It didn't last but seconds. And you could just see, you know how sparklers look, the children play with now?	18:04
Stacey Scales	Yes.	18:11
Elizabeth Pitts	That's the way the fire was in that storm. Just like sparks.	18:13
Stacey Scales	There was a fire in the storm?	18:17
Elizabeth Pitts	It was just like sparklers in that storm. And I asked my granddad, I said, "Papa, is it judgment day?" Because he had been—No, he was a preacher.	18:19
Stacey Scales	Right.	18:27
Elizabeth Pitts	And he had been teaching us about what would happen. I said, "Is it judgment day?" He said, "No, it's just a storm."	18:28
Stacey Scales	Did the house get ruined?	18:35
Elizabeth Pitts	Gone. They found the house up there—They found the safe up there by the trench I was telling you about.	18:40
Stacey Scales	Right. And how far was that from the house?	18:46
Elizabeth Pitts	Up there about that tin building I was telling you about. About a half or a mile, something like that. Uh-huh.	18:50
Stacey Scales	So he knew that?	18:57
Elizabeth Pitts	He knew because he had been in one before and he knew it was a storm, but we hadn't. We hadn't been in any. Because when he come up here, it wasn't bad up here with no storms. But that was the first that had been through.	19:02
Stacey Scales	How did you manage to get back on your feet?	19:14
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, you talking about after the storm?	19:20
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am	19:22
Elizabeth Pitts	After the storm it just rained. Looked like the cloud just opened up and just rained. Just rained, just flooded. And about 10 minutes the sun come out, shine just like it shining now. Just like it hadn't been no stone and wasn't nothing standing, nothing. It only left the floor of the house that my mom and dad was laying on. It blowed them out the bed and just took the bed and put it out in the yard. Took my other aunt and put her—She had a little boy, he was about two. She had him in the bed with her. They was all laying across the bed. It took the mattress off the bed and put it out in that duck pen. And they were still on it.	19:22
Elizabeth Pitts	They were still on that mattress. It was an awful day. And a few minutes you didn't hear nothing but ambulances and polices running. The cars blowing. But none of us got killed. But we got hurt. Something hit me. Can you see it right there?	20:12
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	20:37
Elizabeth Pitts	Something stuck through that but it came out, it didn't stay in, and I couldn't walk about three weeks. But thank God I wasn't killed.	20:38
Stacey Scales	Right.	20:45
Elizabeth Pitts	And wasn't none of us killed. Something hit my uncle and knocked his teeth out. But wasn't nobody killed. But over here on Fort Lawn, our usher of our church she was about eight months pregnant and it nailed her, pinned her to the ground with a two by four, that stuck it through her. Pinned her to the ground. Her name was Susie Staples. It was awful.	20:46
Stacey Scales	Did you all build the house back?	21:19
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. The boss man built the house back. They took action and right on built the house back. About a month and a half the houses built back, and we moved back in and just kept on going.	21:20
Stacey Scales	Where'd you stay during that time?	21:35
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, we had some empty houses on the place. So the Red Cross give us beds and stuff. Stoves, safes. Red Cross helped us back on our feet.	21:39
Stacey Scales	Have there been any other storms like that one?	21:53
Elizabeth Pitts	No, that was the only one that had ever been through. And the next year, on the 15th of March, it come through around [indistinct 00:22:07] and did the same thing down there.	21:55
Stacey Scales	So every year at that time?	22:09
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, for two years now, not every year. Just two years. Just the two years.	22:12
Stacey Scales	1943, around the same month.	22:20
Elizabeth Pitts	Around the same month, but it was on the 15th day. It didn't hit us this time. It hit down around [indistinct 00:22:26] that next time.	22:21
Stacey Scales	Man, that's interesting.	22:26
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah.	22:29
Stacey Scales	And you were saying that you seen people put the ax in the ground—	22:30
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. And split it, split the cloud.	22:37
Stacey Scales	And it would split the cloud?	22:38
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	22:39
Stacey Scales	You were saying about the ax.	22:49
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. He would split the clouds. A dark cloud would coming up, old people used to stick that ax, a certain way you could stick that ax and you'd see that cloud parting, splitting.	22:52
Stacey Scales	And did he teach you how that was done?	23:01
Elizabeth Pitts	He taught my mom. My mom could do it, but I was scared. Because you could also bring it over too.	23:03
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	23:10
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-hmm. So he taught her how to stick it against that cloud.	23:12
Stacey Scales	So it's a certain way to do it?	23:14
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-uh. A certain way you have to do it and it works. And I tell you, a Bible works better than it all.	23:15
Stacey Scales	Put that in the ground?	23:24
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Just open your Bible and lay it up.	23:25
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	23:26
Elizabeth Pitts	And it will either get high or go around you.	23:28
Stacey Scales	So do other people have ways of surviving those storms like that?	23:33
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Yeah. They were surviving the same way. People learn. You learn how to do things. And after that people started to digging storm pits. Dig a hole in the ground. And a lot of people walled it up and make cut steps to go in and put a top on it and cover it back over dirt.	23:40
Stacey Scales	And they would get down in there during the storm?	24:04
Elizabeth Pitts	They would get down in there. And then if the house blew away, it would blow over you.	24:08
Stacey Scales	Okay. That's amazing.	24:10
Elizabeth Pitts	People learn to survive.	24:15
Stacey Scales	And was it the older people telling the younger people how to do those things?	24:19
Elizabeth Pitts	Right. ?Okay.	24:21
Elizabeth Pitts	Right. It was the older people.	24:21
Stacey Scales	Did people back then talk about spirits? Like [indistinct 00:24:26] and [indistinct 00:24:26]?	24:25
Elizabeth Pitts	Fix it	24:26
Speaker 3	Fix what?	24:26
Elizabeth Pitts	Cut it up just a bit.	24:26
Speaker 3	Okay.	24:26
Stacey Scales	Just say that. Old people talk about spirits and things?	24:26
Elizabeth Pitts	They would talk about spirits. My mom could see them.	24:39
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	24:44
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-hmm.	24:44
Stacey Scales	How was she able to see them?	24:46
Elizabeth Pitts	I don't know. But she would see them. She would always see something, a man or somebody. She could really see them. She could see.	24:48
Stacey Scales	I talk to other people and—	24:56
Elizabeth Pitts	And I was scared. I'm scared of them. I can't see them. My daddy couldn't see them often. But he would see them. But he would always say his [indistinct 00:25:13] always senses that. So he said, "There wasn't nothing he see he couldn't name." He would always name it something else.	24:58
Stacey Scales	Oh, really?	25:21
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah.	25:22
Stacey Scales	That's all right.	25:22
Elizabeth Pitts	Now he worked for 25 cents a day.	25:27
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	25:31
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. When he got his driver license, he paid 25 cents for them, he said.	25:31
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	25:36
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	25:36
Stacey Scales	So that's your husband?	25:37
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	25:38
Stacey Scales	Okay. People talk about signs back then and different things, what certain signs meant. Let's see, what have I heard? About the black cat.	25:41
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh yeah, yeah. People believe in signs. Like if a black cat cross the road, they turn their hat around. That's what you talking about?	25:53
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	25:58
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. They talked about that. And you couldn't eat no peanuts in my uncle's car. He said he swore they was janky.	25:59
Stacey Scales	Oh, really?	26:06
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Yeah, peoples had signs.	26:06
Stacey Scales	So peanuts was—	26:08
Elizabeth Pitts	Was one of them. If you want to ride in his car, you don't eat no peanuts in his car. He swore that he would have flat.	26:12
Stacey Scales	Did you remember some other ones?	26:17
Elizabeth Pitts	No, not right off.	26:17
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	26:17
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, some they said don't hit you with the broom, you go to jail. You heard that one?	26:17
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	26:40
Elizabeth Pitts	They hit you with the broom, spit on the broom, don't you go to jail. Yeah. They had plenty of signs. If you got a dress, you know people used to say, "I'm going to tack my dress up, tack the hem in," "Don't do that. Put a match in your mouth or somebody's going to lie on you."	26:41
Stacey Scales	Really?	26:55
Elizabeth Pitts	That's what they would say. I don't think all that was true. I think people had signs.	26:56
Stacey Scales	And did people talk about prophecy and things like that? Being able to tell something was going to happen?	27:05
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-hmm. Yeah, some people did but I don't know too much about those prophets.	27:11
Stacey Scales	I was wondering because you all worked on a farm, did people use the signs to plant by the almanac? The book?	27:23
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.	27:31
Stacey Scales	Did your family use it?	27:34
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. I use it now. That is true. It's certain days you can plant and you won't have nothing but a flower. It's called flower day. If you plant on flower day. Then it's a day you can plant, they call it bug day. And the bugs will eat your plants up.	27:37
Stacey Scales	Oh. If you plant on bug day they won't or they will?	27:53
Elizabeth Pitts	They will.	27:58
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	27:58
Elizabeth Pitts	The bugs will eat it up. Bugs insects.	28:00
Stacey Scales	Right.	28:03
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, now that is true. And you were born on signs.	28:03
Stacey Scales	Oh really?	28:03
Elizabeth Pitts	You were conceived on signs.	28:03
Stacey Scales	You were conceived on signs?	28:03
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. You were conceived on signs.	28:03
Stacey Scales	And people would actually follow those things?	28:03
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Yeah.	28:05
Stacey Scales	You said when they're having a baby they follow signs?	28:25
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. You have babies on signs and they conceived on signs. You don't just conceive anytime.	28:30
Stacey Scales	Right. So people will follow those by the calendar and the days.	28:41
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. Whatever you conceived you conceived on a sign. I guess they wouldn't notice that. But you really is. But when they get ready to have the baby, then that's when you notice that.	28:43
Stacey Scales	Noticed the signs?	28:56
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	28:56
Stacey Scales	And what if the baby was born on a Saturday? What does that mean? I mean was there—	29:00
Elizabeth Pitts	No. No, it's in the moon. The signs in the moon.	29:06
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. It's in the moon.	29:07
Elizabeth Pitts	In the moon.	29:08
Stacey Scales	That's interesting.	29:08
Elizabeth Pitts	In the moon. You don't just have a baby anytime. It either come on a quarter, change, or full.	29:12
Stacey Scales	What if it came on a full, what did that mean?	29:25
Elizabeth Pitts	It just doesn't mean anything. It just, that's the way they come. They come on-	29:26
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. So it's a certain pattern.	29:30
Elizabeth Pitts	Right.	29:33
Stacey Scales	Okay. I understand.	29:33
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Certain pattern.	29:35
Stacey Scales	Do people still practice that?	29:39
Elizabeth Pitts	You still there. You still be born on signs. Because anytime a woman have a baby, you just watch that moon. It's going either be born on a quarter, full moon, or on a change, young moon. You don't just have babies anytime.	29:42
Stacey Scales	And did you have to go to church when you were growing up?	30:01
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Yes. Yes. My granddaddy was a preacher. We had to go to church. Sure did.	30:10
Stacey Scales	And would people get the spirit back then?	30:19
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, people shout, get happy, men's cry and get happy. Just like men's back then. Yeah, sure did. Yeah. People went to church and, well see, it wasn't a whole lot to do then. So people went to church. Some of them would go to ballgames, they had ballgames and like that. But wasn't no wrestling and nothing else. And they would go to the movies. It was called a picture show then.	30:21
Stacey Scales	Right.	30:53
Elizabeth Pitts	They would go there. But the most of them, they went to church.	30:54
Stacey Scales	Was the church a place where you would meet people? Did people court?	31:00
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, they would go to church and meet people. People from everywhere would be coming to church. They'd be walking. People had to walk. People walked to church.	31:05
Stacey Scales	And did they have baptisms?	31:18
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Because I'm a Baptist.	31:23
Stacey Scales	Okay. Yeah. And where would they baptize people?	31:27
Elizabeth Pitts	In the river. If you're going to baptize today, on Sunday, the deacons would go down and clean off a place going to the river, find a good level place close to the church and they would go down and clean it up. And that Saturday, some of the deacons that could swim, would go out and test the water and stick sticks where they going to baptize at. So they know how deep the water is. And if you had tall peoples to baptize, they'd go out a little further. But if the children are short, they come closer to the bank.	31:32
Stacey Scales	Would there be a lot of people?	32:20
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, what you talking about? People be around that riverbank. Singing and praying.	32:20
Stacey Scales	And on your place, so Sunday was the day to get away, you said from working.	32:29
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. You go to church on Sunday. You went to go to Sunday school and church.	32:34
Stacey Scales	Did you all talk about religion on the place?	32:42
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Be in the field, anywhere. Them old people get together and sometime they wouldn't have to be at church. They go talking about and shout at home.	32:49
Stacey Scales	Would they be singing in the field while they working?	32:58
Elizabeth Pitts	Sometimes. Some of them. Some of them be singing out in the field, I used to hear singing. Men's, you could hear them singing, plowing behind the mule.	33:00
Stacey Scales	And when people would leave and if they owed the boss man something, would they have to sneak away? Do you remember people doing that?	33:17
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. People used to run off, slip off every day. Sometimes people would leave, a lot of them will leave that way. Get up the next morning looking for him and he gone or she gone, they gone. Whole family gone. Sometimes they be able sneak up to move. And some people just, they didn't have much now. People then didn't have nothing, like nice stuff you got now they didn't have that. They might have have a bed and chair and a stove, table or safe. It wasn't like cabinets, China cabinets and stuff. They had something called a safe. It was made like this but had screens in the door. And some of them had glass in the door. But it was called a safe. And you put your dishes in. They didn't have cabinets like they got today. Houses didn't have that.	33:23
Stacey Scales	Did your family ever help somebody to sneak away?	34:21
Elizabeth Pitts	No, not that I know about. See, people didn't trust peoples enough to do that.	34:24
Stacey Scales	Oh, no?	34:30
Elizabeth Pitts	No. They didn't trust peoples enough to do that. If you was going to run off, you didn't tell nobody. You just went. You just went.	34:31
Stacey Scales	So the next morning—	34:41
Elizabeth Pitts	He didn't show up at work. Then you go down there, his house empty. He gone and he didn't have much. It might have a sturdy mattress and a iron bed, and it's left in the house	34:43
Stacey Scales	Took off. Would they ever go look for the people?	34:56
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Sometimes they would have people looking around see if you see them.	34:59
Stacey Scales	What if they would've caught them?	35:05
Elizabeth Pitts	Well—	35:07
Stacey Scales	Were there forms of punishment?	35:08
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Sometimes they say there was punishment. I never didn't know nobody to punish them. But they said sometimes people would punish them when they catch them.	35:09
Stacey Scales	And when the people would have babies on the plantation, would they have to work at a young age when the babies got up a little bit?	35:21
Elizabeth Pitts	When they baby got about six weeks old.	35:32
Stacey Scales	Six months old?	35:34
Elizabeth Pitts	Six weeks.	35:34
Stacey Scales	Six weeks old?	35:35
Elizabeth Pitts	Then they would go back to work.	35:35
Stacey Scales	Oh, the mother would go back to work.	35:35
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-hmm. Leave the baby at home where the children are, if a old person wasn't there to tend to it, that didn't work, then you leave your baby with the children.	35:42
Stacey Scales	Now what was the youngest people they had working?	35:52
Elizabeth Pitts	Well back then, if he was eight years old, they cut the hoe handles off and let those little eight year old children chop cotton. Eight, nine years old children chop cotton.	35:56
Stacey Scales	They'd cut the hoe handle off?	36:04
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	36:06
Stacey Scales	They just have that?	36:06
Elizabeth Pitts	You see, you know long a hoe handle is?	36:07
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	36:10
Elizabeth Pitts	They would cut the handle off, the end off, about that much of it off.	36:10
Stacey Scales	About a foot?	36:15
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, yeah. So the children wouldn't be sticking it up in the, and give it to them to chop. They had to work. They had to work.	36:16
Stacey Scales	Would they encourage the people to have children?	36:28
Elizabeth Pitts	Not that I know of.	36:31
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	36:32
Elizabeth Pitts	Not that I know of.	36:33
Stacey Scales	Did people when they left go north?	36:38
Elizabeth Pitts	A lot of them did leave and go north. And a lot of them, when you left you had to leave. You had to get on. Just like if you were to stop, if you run off and know somebody, you didn't stuck round, you gone. You had to go. Had to go on off. Because they'd get you. They would catch you and put you—There's a place, where is it at now? I'm hearing Brownie now. You ever heard of town of Brownie?	36:42
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	37:03
Elizabeth Pitts	It was a place out there called a County Farm.	37:05
Stacey Scales	County Farm. Okay.	37:07
Elizabeth Pitts	They'd put you out there.	37:09
Stacey Scales	And what happened out there?	37:09
Elizabeth Pitts	Had to work. You had to work.	37:12
Stacey Scales	Okay.	37:13
Elizabeth Pitts	You could be on the road working or cutting ditch banks. They had you doing something, had you working. That's the punishment they'd give you. If you were to run off on them or if you did something on their place. If you cut up somebody on the place or cut up somebody or got to fight and hurt somebody, that's the way they'd put you for six or seven months.	37:14
Stacey Scales	Could the plantation boss get you out of there?	37:37
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh yeah. If he wanted to. He could get you from anywhere. If you had killed somebody and the boss said, "Go get him. Let him out." They would let you out.	37:40
Stacey Scales	Yeah. Even if you killed somebody?	37:59
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Because the little place you lived on, you didn't even go nowhere.	38:00
Stacey Scales	Now did the people on the plantation get to vote?	38:10
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Back then they wasn't voting. See, Blacks wasn't voting at that time. Blacks was not voting in Mississippi. Blacks didn't start voting until after 1963, after Martin Luther King's time. And even then if you voted, you had to move. You had to move.	38:16
Stacey Scales	So you couldn't vote and stay on this place.	38:45
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. That was after 1963 because it didn't start no civil rights till 1963. That's when it started. And they locked up a lot of Black people.	38:48
Stacey Scales	Do you know anyone that tried to vote?	39:00
Elizabeth Pitts	No. I didn't know them, but I've heard of people trying to vote and they had to move. Had to move off the plantation.	39:07
Stacey Scales	Did the Blacks on the plantation ever talk about those things, type of things?	39:15
Elizabeth Pitts	About voting?	39:23
Stacey Scales	Yes ma'am.	39:24
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, they would mention it and talk about it. But they was mostly afraid to say too much. Couldn't say too much until after Martin Luther King's time.	39:24
Stacey Scales	Did you ever get a chance to travel when you were growing up?	39:43
Elizabeth Pitts	No, I never did do no traveling. None of the family. My aunt used to go to Memphis. Well, I went to Memphis once or twice when I was growing up.	39:48
Stacey Scales	Okay. Was that different than what you were used to?	39:56
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. It was different. We'd catch the bus and go because my mama's people were in Memphis.	40:03
Stacey Scales	And the bus, was it segregated with the Blacks?	40:08
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. Yes. Blacks went to the back. They was at the back.	40:13
Stacey Scales	Was the picture show segregated too, that you went to?	40:19
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Yeah, they were segregated. How long you been here?	40:22
Stacey Scales	A few days.	40:29
Elizabeth Pitts	Okay. You hadn't been here long. Well, they made an apartment out of it now. But it was a Walther Theater, was for Black peoples. The Dixie Theater was for Black peoples. But the Paramount, I'm trying to study. I don't know whether the Paramount was segregated, but I know LeFlore was for White. That was a White theater they had.	40:30
Stacey Scales	When you went to the movies, it was entirely Black?	40:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Everywhere you went was entirely Black. No Whites.	40:59
Stacey Scales	So they didn't have the Whites, it wasn't split. I've heard people say they was—	41:04
Elizabeth Pitts	Well that might have been the Paramount, but I never did go. Yeah, somebody said the Paramount was like that. The Whites at the top and the Blacks at the bottom.	41:07
Stacey Scales	Okay.	41:16
Elizabeth Pitts	But I never did go to the Paramount Theater, but they said that's the way it was.	41:16
Stacey Scales	Right.	41:19
Elizabeth Pitts	Because I always went to Walther and Dixie's was all Black.	41:23
Stacey Scales	How much did it cost to go to the movies?	41:25
Elizabeth Pitts	25 cents.	41:29
Stacey Scales	What was your favorite movie?	41:33
Elizabeth Pitts	They would have different things. They would show westerns and they would show funny movies and they would show love pictures like that. They would show that. They didn't have nothing else.	41:35
Stacey Scales	And do you remember which one you liked the best?	41:49
Elizabeth Pitts	I used to like them cowboy movies.	41:53
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	41:57
Elizabeth Pitts	I liked them shoot-em-outs.	41:58
Stacey Scales	Did they ever have Blacks in the movies?	41:58
Elizabeth Pitts	No, it was White. The film they were showing was White.	42:04
Stacey Scales	Okay. And	42:13
Elizabeth Pitts	Until later, as time go by, then they started showing Black with the movies.	42:14
Stacey Scales	And when did you start deciding you were going to court? Or how did the courting process work when you were coming around?	42:28
Elizabeth Pitts	If you courted, you courted at school. You had to slip and court. You had to slip. Parent's better not hear you talking about no boyfriend. You had to court at school. When you leave school, courting is over. Until you got about 18, when I got 18. I didn't start going out till I got 18.	42:37
Stacey Scales	So were you considered an adult at 18?	43:01
Elizabeth Pitts	No, I still wasn't considered an adult.	43:01
Stacey Scales	So at school, there was no time that he could come visit?	43:12
Elizabeth Pitts	No.	43:14
Stacey Scales	Parents didn't allow that?	43:14
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Parents didn't allow that. Didn't allow that.	43:19
Stacey Scales	So at what age did you become a woman? That you think that you left girlhood behind and became a woman?	43:25
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, when I got 18 and 19, then I started going out with aunties. I had some aunties, they was older, so I started going with them then. At 18, I started going with them. And they was in their early twenties. They was 20 something.	43:36
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	43:55
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. So I'd go with them, we'd go out, my sister and myself. And then when I got 19, 20, I would go when I got ready. But I had to be careful where I'd go because somebody told my daddy where I went was the wrong place. I still got chewed out.	43:56
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	44:16
Elizabeth Pitts	Because he wasn't no fighting man. He didn't do much whooping. I didn't get no beatings. I didn't get no whippings because I wasn't a bad person.	44:17
Stacey Scales	When you were growing up, could a White man date Black women?	44:28
Elizabeth Pitts	Not it be known. Well, it always have happened.	44:36
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah.	44:41
Elizabeth Pitts	But mighty few people know what was going on because it couldn't get out to that person, something would happen to them.	44:41
Stacey Scales	Like on the plantation or something?	44:48
Elizabeth Pitts	Anywhere. Blacks stayed to themselves. But like I said, a White man ain't court a Black woman in a long time. But it was under the cover.	44:53
Stacey Scales	Right.	45:06
Elizabeth Pitts	And I've known peoples to come up missing. I've known people to come up missing. And they said that's what they were doing. I don't know. I'm not sure because I didn't see nothing.	45:06
Stacey Scales	Now the people are—Is it the White person that was missing?	45:22
Elizabeth Pitts	No, no. The Black person.	45:27
Stacey Scales	The woman he was interested in?	45:31
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	45:33
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	45:33
Elizabeth Pitts	Sometimes they become missing.	45:34
Stacey Scales	Because they might tell or something like that?	45:36
Elizabeth Pitts	Something happened. I really don't know what happened. But they become up missing a lot of time. Sure would.	45:39
Stacey Scales	Well, did the same thing hold true for Black men and White women?	45:47
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. And Black men were scared to look at a White woman. You didn't look at them or they call it eye-raping. You didn't look at them.	45:53
Stacey Scales	Eye-raping?	46:01
Elizabeth Pitts	Raping. Uh-huh. If you look at a White woman too hard. You didn't look at the White people. Black man didn't look at a White woman too hard.	46:03
Stacey Scales	And if it had its repercussions, did it have its effects on him? Would that be just a common everyday thing for people to know that you shouldn't do that?	46:13
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. People know you shouldn't do that. They knew. They know they couldn't do this. Just like you know that fire will burn.	46:28
Stacey Scales	Right.	46:35
Elizabeth Pitts	They didn't bother with the White. Black men did not bother the White people. They just worked for them and go on, if they wanted to live.	46:39
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	46:46

Stacey Scales	Never present itself on the plantation you were raised on?	0:02
Elizabeth Pitts	No, we didn't have that problem out there. Didn't have that kind of a problem. We didn't have that kind of a problem, not on the plantation.	0:11
Stacey Scales	Had you heard stories that other people tell about that?	0:17
Elizabeth Pitts	No. They didn't have that kind of problem on the plantation. But in the city, in the town, they might have had that problem sometimes. Every once in a while.	0:25
Stacey Scales	In the town?	0:32
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-hmm.	0:34
Stacey Scales	When you went to Memphis, was that something that happened up there?	0:43
Elizabeth Pitts	No, nothing because I was small, I was about five.	0:48
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes.	0:53
Elizabeth Pitts	And I can't remember anything different. Anything could happen up there but be different because I was small. I can't remember.	0:54
Stacey Scales	When you got old enough to, let's say, go shopping and go to different places, were there places you couldn't go because you were a Black woman?	1:02
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. You could go in any store and shop, but you couldn't go in there and eat. You couldn't go in the restaurants and stuff and eat. Hey, sir, how you doing?	1:13
Stacey Scales	Oh, all right. How you doing sir? Good. You couldn't go eat, you said?	1:24
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-uh. They would sell you food, but they had a window. A window. They hand your food out if you bought it. You could buy it from them, but you couldn't eat it there.	1:30
Stacey Scales	What about shopping for women's clothes?	1:47
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, you could shop anywhere. It's never been—You always could go in a store and shop because they always wanted your money.	1:50
Stacey Scales	Did they have White and Black water and things like that?	1:59
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, you didn't go in the restaurants and stuff. You didn't go where the water was because if they had the water in the stores, they didn't—It was in the back somewhere, you didn't see it. So I don't know about water because we didn't ever go in—When we go to the stores and stuff—I know it's bathrooms Blacks couldn't use at some service station. So I'm sure you couldn't get the water either at the fountain because that's what they drank.	2:04
Stacey Scales	Yeah. Now, when you were traveling, did that present a problem because they didn't allow Blacks to go to water, to get water and use the bathroom?	2:37
Elizabeth Pitts	No, because I was small. Like I said, I was small. I can't remember. I can't recall. I can't recall that. But I do know we sit at the back of the bus and had some little curtains on these rods right here. You couldn't go—You couldn't sit up in front of that curtain. You had to get behind that curtain, that little thing. That's where your seats start at.	2:50
Stacey Scales	How'd you feel about those—	3:12
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, at the time you felt all right because you didn't know no different. See? At the time you didn't know no different. That's all you knew. At the time, you didn't worry about trying to go in places and do things that you know weren't supposed—That you couldn't do. You didn't worry about it.	3:14
Stacey Scales	Did things get better?	3:36
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. After Martin Luther King's time. After Martin Luther King had that march. He marched. He marched. He come down 82. We saw him. We would see him. And people would be following him.	3:37
Stacey Scales	Were there any people that you remember that were speaking about some of those political things on the plantation? No?	3:52
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Not that I can think.	4:05
Stacey Scales	When did you all leave the land?	4:10
Elizabeth Pitts	We stayed there. When did I leave there? I left—We left in '77.	4:15
Stacey Scales	You moved to [indistinct 00:04:23].	4:22
Elizabeth Pitts	Here.	4:23
Stacey Scales	Right here.	4:23
Elizabeth Pitts	Moved here. We left there. I went, I work at Valley in '77 and that's when I left the plantation, in '77. And I went to Valley and I worked there until a year ago, two years ago when I retired.	4:26
Stacey Scales	What did you do? Okay, tell me about your experiences at Valley.	4:45
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, I loved it. I loved it. When they hired me, they hired me in the social science building. That's where I went as a major. And I stayed there for about six years. Dr. Curtis was the head of the department then. Did you meet him before he passed?	4:48
Stacey Scales	No, ma'am.	5:08
Elizabeth Pitts	Okay. And I remained there until, I believe it was '82. '82, '83. And they move into the president's house. So I went on the administration of Dr. Boyer, Joe Boyer. And I worked for him until he left. And Dr. Williamson come in and I worked for him until I retired.	5:11
Stacey Scales	So you worked on the land and then you went straight from the land to Mississippi Valley?	5:39
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Straight from the land to Mississippi Valley.	5:47
Stacey Scales	Could you compare how those two jobs were?	5:50
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. I'd rather have been in Valley because I was chopping cotton.	5:52
Stacey Scales	How many years did you chop cotton? When did you first start?	5:56
Elizabeth Pitts	When I was 12. When I was 12 years old, I went to the field. That's when I went to the field and started chopping cotton.	6:03
Stacey Scales	That's a long time.	6:10
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. And I stayed there. We chopped cotton and we pick cotton by the day. Pick cotton by the hundred, chopped by the day. That's where we made our living. And we was getting—Well, for the last three or four years that I was there, they was giving us, we getting a dollar quarter an hour. We left three dollars a day, and we was getting a dollar quarter an hour. When I left there, that's when we were getting a dollar quarter an hour for chopping.	6:13
Stacey Scales	When you left there in 1977, a dollar and quarter?	6:46
Elizabeth Pitts	Dollar quarter an hour.	6:51
Stacey Scales	And you had children about then, right?	6:57
Elizabeth Pitts	I had all of them. My baby was born in '71. In '71. He was born in '71.	7:02
Stacey Scales	And were they working the field too?	7:07
Elizabeth Pitts	The girls, the older girls did. And my older son, he was working. But the last ones, these didn't. These [indistinct 00:07:20]. They wasn't big enough. But they weren't able to work when I brought them out here, they were still in school. And by this time, they couldn't—You couldn't pull them out of school. See, you couldn't pull them out of school. They had to go to school. They forced them to go to school.	7:11
Stacey Scales	How many children did you have?	7:35
Elizabeth Pitts	10. I got six girls and four boys.	7:40
Stacey Scales	When they came along, did you tell them how to get along in the world?	7:44
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I sure did. I told them what—How to make it here. Because you know your dos and don'ts, you know how it is.	7:49
Stacey Scales	So did you tell them about the Black and White and how the two couldn't eat at the same place and things?	8:05
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, but see, they knew by this because they know—They knew about this. They was in school then.	8:14
Stacey Scales	Okay.	8:20
Elizabeth Pitts	They was in school then. They knew all—The teacher was teaching them that then, by this time. They knew that. The teacher was teaching them, began to teach them because this was after '63.	8:20
Stacey Scales	Okay. After '63.	8:31
Elizabeth Pitts	This is after '63. Then that's when everything after—Then they started teaching them about segregation and different stuff in school.	8:35
Stacey Scales	And what would you all do on holidays when you were growing up?	8:46
Elizabeth Pitts	We didn't take no Fourth of July. You chopped. Back then, you didn't take no Fourth of July. You worked on that holiday. And Thanksgiving, if you wasn't through picking cotton, you picked cotton. But you always took Christmas.	8:57
Stacey Scales	Always took Christmas?	9:14
Elizabeth Pitts	Always took Christmas because you'd be at home because it was in the wintertime.	9:17
Stacey Scales	And would people come together and have big meals and things like that?	9:30
Elizabeth Pitts	For Christmas?	9:31
Stacey Scales	Yes.	9:32
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, yeah. You always had—I would be so glad a Christmas come. Because you going to have a big meal, you going to have plenty. And things that you didn't get, couldn't get through the year, you'd get it on Christmas.	9:32
Stacey Scales	Really?	9:48
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. Like apples and oranges, and lot of good candy and good food and stuff.	9:49
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	9:58
Elizabeth Pitts	See, you couldn't get that all through the year because you couldn't afford it. But we could eat chickens all through year because we raised them.	9:59
Stacey Scales	And the chickens had the—Would you have to kill them yourself?	10:11
Elizabeth Pitts	Mmm-hmm. We had a big yard. You have a yard like we got now, and all our chickens and things was in the yard. And you have a—All that thing was out in the country. Then you have a big chicken house built out back there and they roost in. Then you have hog pens out from the house where you—You know your hogs and you have cows. A little fence out there for you to put your cows in.	10:17
Stacey Scales	Did people back then talk about digging money?	10:47
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, they'd be looking for money, and someone else would find.	10:51
Stacey Scales	Why would it be the ground?	10:58
Elizabeth Pitts	Why would it be in the ground? I don't know that. Somebody buried it there years, years, years ago. They did tell me, but I can't remember why people were burying money. But they buried—It was in the ground. A lot of people said they found it. And a lot of people say spirits would give them—Tell them where it would be in they go get it.	10:58
Stacey Scales	Put money in the ground.	11:22
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Money was buried in the ground. Yeah. Yeah. You did. Little bit. Nothing much.	11:29
Stacey Scales	They said they would go digging and spirits would tell him how to get to it?	11:35
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. My uncle said—He dead now, though. But he told me, he said one night a man told him to go down beside the road. He'll see a piece of iron and you dig down there by that iron, that you'll find a pile of money. And he said he went down there and the iron was there, but he was scared to dig.	11:39
Stacey Scales	Really?	11:55
Elizabeth Pitts	That's what he told me. He was scared to dig.	11:57
Stacey Scales	And the spirit told him to do that?	11:57
Elizabeth Pitts	It was a man. He said it was a man told him.	12:02
Stacey Scales	Oh, a man.	12:03
Elizabeth Pitts	But he was a spirit. You so crazy.	12:05
Stacey Scales	I'm wondering why he decided not to get it.	12:14
Elizabeth Pitts	He was scared. He was. It must have been there because he said he went and the iron star was there just like he said, which it hadn't been there. And he went back a day or two later, the star was gone. Had sunk back in.	12:20
Stacey Scales	Oh, you think somebody else said—	12:37
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-uh. Nobody didn't get it. He said it sunk back. Went back in.	12:38
Stacey Scales	Oh, it went back in.	12:42
Elizabeth Pitts	They said money works up. It works up and then it go back down. That's what they told me. I don't know nothing about it because I was scared to try.	12:44
Stacey Scales	Do people talk about stuff like Voodoo and things like that?	12:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Voodoo?	12:57
Stacey Scales	Yes, ma'am.	12:57
Elizabeth Pitts	Oh, yeah.	12:58
Stacey Scales	They have people doing that right here?	13:00
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, people do it. People do it. People make—Put down things for you. Put down stuff for you.	13:03
Stacey Scales	For them.	13:10
Elizabeth Pitts	For people's having sick.	13:12
Stacey Scales	I didn't hear you.	13:14
Elizabeth Pitts	People would put out stuff and have people sick.	13:15
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes. Charms.	13:15
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. He ain't never pick no cotton.	13:19
Stacey Scales	Was that something people talked about?	13:29
Elizabeth Pitts	Mm-mm.	13:30
Stacey Scales	No? It was kind of hush—	13:30
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, kind of hush-hush. Kind of hush-hush. People was scared to talk about it because didn't nobody about putting nothing down for them.	13:36
Stacey Scales	Right. And was there any people known for that sort of thing?	13:44
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. There was people known for it. People was scared of them too.	13:50
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	13:51
Elizabeth Pitts	People scared of them.	13:53
Stacey Scales	Would they go down to New Orleans or something like that?	13:54
Elizabeth Pitts	No. People right around—[indistinct 00:14:00] wouldn't do stuff like that.	13:56
Stacey Scales	And when you was growing up, did they have an all-Black cemetery place where the Blacks were buried? Where was it?	14:10
Elizabeth Pitts	One of them at the church I was telling you about where I went to school. One there. There's one on down on Racetrack plantation.	14:20
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes.	14:26
Elizabeth Pitts	You ever heard of Racetrack plantation?	14:27
Stacey Scales	No. I think I like to—Yes. The racetrack. Yes, ma'am.	14:27
Elizabeth Pitts	That's where all my family buried.	14:34
Stacey Scales	Okay. Would they put the Blacks in the same cemetery with White folks?	14:36
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Not then. No. Even when you're dead, they didn't put you together. Blacks had their churches, Whites had theirs.	14:47
Stacey Scales	When they would've buried people back then, would it be different than now?	14:53
Elizabeth Pitts	No. You just might not have had as nice of—You might not have had as nice caskets and things as they have now.	15:08
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. Would the people dig the hole—	15:20
Elizabeth Pitts	With shovels.	15:27
Stacey Scales	Okay.	15:27
Elizabeth Pitts	Which shovels. People dig the hole with shovels and bury them. A lot of people didn't have—Wasn't any insurance. So they just dress you and lay you in a wooden box and put the box in the ground and bury it if you wasn't in no insurance or nothing.	15:36
Stacey Scales	I was going to ask, those people that went up north, when they came back, were they looked at differently? The Blacks that decided to migrate up there, when they would come back and visit, would they be the same people, or would they be looked at kind of different?	16:00
Elizabeth Pitts	You mean looked at by the Whites or the Blacks?	16:20
Stacey Scales	Or both.	16:23
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Now they would—People would be glad to see them, and a lot of people went back with them. A lot of people go back with them. Just like if you leave and go up north and I'm related to you, my sister or my brother or something, if you come back, then you tell me how it is, sometime I'd go back with you. We'd go back with you. Sometimes the whole family get up and go.	16:25
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	16:47
Elizabeth Pitts	They would. A lot of times the whole family would leave and go north. We had a bunch of people to leave off the place and go north.	16:49
Stacey Scales	And would they have cars and fancy things?	16:56
Elizabeth Pitts	When they would come back. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. When they would come back, they would have. That's what make people go with them. They're doing so good, they'd go—People would go back with them. Get better jobs and more money. Just wasn't paying no money here worth nothing. See? They go up there where they paying big money, get those jobs.	17:01
Stacey Scales	Did you ever go up that far?	17:23
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, I been there but not to live. My son was up there. My son was there.	17:26
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	17:30
Elizabeth Pitts	My older son, after he come out the army, he went on up north. He went on to Chicago and he stayed there for 16 years.	17:31
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah? How did people get their news about what was happening in the community?	17:39
Elizabeth Pitts	Newspaper. People take papers.	17:47
Stacey Scales	Did they have a Black paper?	17:52
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Yeah. Well, they had a Black paper. I was trying to study what that Black paper was. I forgot the name of it now. Was it Allegion? I forgot the name of that paper. They had a Black paper, but it wasn't coming from Greenwood.	17:53
Stacey Scales	Oh, no?	18:04
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-uh. It wasn't coming out of Greenwood. Greenwood always had Commonwealth.	18:05
Stacey Scales	Well, what about that time back then, do you think, is it really, really important that people should know about the time of Jim Crow?	18:18
Elizabeth Pitts	What you mean?	18:34
Stacey Scales	Sometimes when historians write history, they'll leave some things out that are really important. And I'm saying that, what do you think about your experiences during those times do you think people should really know about?	18:37
Elizabeth Pitts	Well, I don't really know anything that they should know about right now. I can't think.	18:56
Stacey Scales	Or a lesson that you may have learned growing up during those hard times?	19:02
Elizabeth Pitts	I can't think of nothing that really went on—	19:07
Stacey Scales	Right.	19:17
Elizabeth Pitts	—That's hid, that's still hid. I can't remember. I can't recall nothing that went on back then that still hid. Because everything has came out. Everything has came out.	19:18
Stacey Scales	Blacks have cars back then?	19:40
Elizabeth Pitts	Yes. A few. A few Blacks had cars, but not a lot.	19:40
Stacey Scales	Did your father have a car?	19:40
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. My uncle had one.	19:47
Stacey Scales	Oh, your uncle had one?	19:47
Elizabeth Pitts	My uncle always had one and my daddy had one.	19:48
Stacey Scales	And what kind of car was it?	19:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Ah, the first car, it was a Nash, but I can't remember what year. But it was old Nash. It was old. The '28 Ford was out, but I don't remember when they came out. I don't remember my people's having one of those.	19:59
Stacey Scales	Okay. What did your husband do for a living? Did he work on the place too?	20:23
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, he worked on place. Now, he's a lot older than I am. He can tell you a lot more than I can tell you.	20:27
Stacey Scales	Maybe I can talk to him too.	20:33
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, he could tell you. Because he said when he got his license, he paid a quarter for his driver's license. And he said he worked for 25 cents a day.	20:35
Stacey Scales	That's a rough time.	20:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Rough times. Rough times. But when I got being to start working, I was getting three dollars a day. Well, when they took out—Three dollars a day, and we'd get two dollars a hundred for picking cotton. Two and a half. Two and a half, a hundred for picking cotton.	20:54
Stacey Scales	Okay. When did you all get married?	21:08
Elizabeth Pitts	I got married in what, '54, '55 I believe.	21:16
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes?	21:27
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh.	21:27
Stacey Scales	And did you have a ceremony there on the land?	21:27
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Went to the courthouse. Married at the courthouse.	21:27
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes?	21:27
Elizabeth Pitts	I married at the courthouse.	21:27
Stacey Scales	Would they ever have people get married right there on the land?	21:28
Elizabeth Pitts	You could get married at the church. You could get married at home. You get married anyway you want to. A lot of people married at their homes. A lot of people married at the church. And a lot of people went to the courthouse.	21:37
Stacey Scales	If people got married at their homes on that plantation, who would do the marriage?	21:53
Elizabeth Pitts	Your pastor. Your preacher.	21:59
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	22:01
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah. Always had a pastor of your church. He would marry you. And if not that, you'd go to the courthouse and get married. And a lot of people have church weddings at your church, and the pastor would marry them at the church. But wherever you get married, it's your pastor. If it's out, if it wasn't at the courthouse, your pastor married you. Or some preacher, you get some preacher. Just any preacher. A lot of people just get a preacher to marry them.	22:02
Stacey Scales	Right.	22:31
Elizabeth Pitts	Buy the license, get a preacher to marry you and you sign them and take them to the courthouse and get them notarized.	22:32
Stacey Scales	And do people have any time to spend with each other with like—Or a honeymoon?	22:43
Elizabeth Pitts	Nope. People weren't able to go. Yeah, people weren't able to go no honeymoon. You get married today, you go back to work tomorrow back then. But later, people went when they got married to go on the honeymoon. Because they had started working and making big money so they could do this later. But back then, no. People didn't probably go on the honeymoon unless it was somebody—Well, you found a few families had a little money. Some peoples always have been fortunate than others.	22:50
Stacey Scales	Right. Were there any people that used to—Would talk about Africa back then? No?	23:24
Elizabeth Pitts	No.	23:33
Stacey Scales	No Marcus Garvey?	23:33
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Didn't talk about those people.	23:33
Stacey Scales	And so when did you—At—	23:34
Elizabeth Pitts	Uh-huh. She don't want to answer.	23:43
Stacey Scales	At what age did you realize that there was a difference between Whites and Blacks and how they were treated?	23:54
Elizabeth Pitts	I knew all along because I grew up as it and grew up with it. I knew all along because I was big enough to know. I know you had to Mr. and Mrs. everybody, all the Whites.	24:01
Stacey Scales	Yes. Would you have to call the children—	24:13
Elizabeth Pitts	No. Well, when they got teenagers, they wanted you to call them Miss and Mr. When they got big, like 18, 19 years old, you had to Mr. them. Mrs them.	24:16
Stacey Scales	And you could have been older than them.	24:24
Elizabeth Pitts	Yeah, yeah. Yeah, older peoples had to say, Mr. and Mrs.	24:26
Stacey Scales	As a grown woman, would they call you by—	24:34
Elizabeth Pitts	Your name? Mrs? No, they call you by your name. They didn't care how old you was. You get real old, it was Amy and Aka. Just like him. They sit on the porch and, "Hi, Aka." It was old lady sitting there, "Hi, Amy. How you doing?"	24:37
Stacey Scales	So how did that make you feel when that would happen?	25:07
Elizabeth Pitts	Back then, you didn't have a choice. You know what I'm saying? You didn't have a choice. You going to say something and get beat up or killed. What you going to say?	25:14
Stacey Scales	Is there anything else you'd like to—	25:29
Elizabeth Pitts	No, that's about it. That's basically it—	25:32
Stacey Scales	Okay. All right.	25:34
Elizabeth Pitts	—With me. It's basically the way I grew up.	25:34

Item Info

Title:

Elizabeth Pitts interview recording, 1995 July 24

Date:

July 24, 1995

Creator:

Pitts, Elizabeth

Contributor:

Scales, Mausiki Stacey

Description:

Name: Elizabeth Pitts; Date of birth: 1928-10-24; Place of birth: LeFlore Co., MS; Occupation(s): plantation worker; maintenance; agriculture; Residence: Greenwood, MS
Informant ID: 1161; Interviewed by: Stacey Scales.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-1999

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

Interview number: 492
7766319a-2847-45ed-b4ca-7fe15121f013
behindtheveil
btvct04037
ark:/87924/r4222wm8t
97857928-cbc3-4a25-85ee-ab22fd407e5a

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4222wm8t

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Elizabeth Pitts interview recording, 1995 July 24

Transcript

Item Info

1. Elizabeth Pitts administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options

Elizabeth Pitts interview recording, 1995 July 24

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options