Mercer, Joyce Ann / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Joyce, it's a pleasure to talk to you.

0:01

Thanks so much for agreeing to be interviewed.

0:03

I just would like some background information.

0:05

If you could give me your full name,

0:07

and spell it as well please.

0:08

Joyce

Okay, Joyce Ann Mercer.

0:11

J O Y C E, A N N, M E R C E R.

0:14

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Thanks so much, and are you layer clergy?

0:20

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I'm clergy, I am PC rep...

0:23

Sorry I'm getting cut off here somehow.

0:28

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Are you still there?

0:35

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Yes.

0:36

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Okay.

0:37

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You're still there too, good.

0:38

(laughing)

0:39

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We're having technical difficulties.

0:45

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We sure are, my my.

0:48

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Joyce?

0:56

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Yes.

0:58

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I can hear you, are you getting cut off from me?

1:00

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I now can hear you.

1:03

I don't know what happened for a minute there.

1:05

We're okay now.

1:07

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Okay.

1:08

You are an elder in the Presbyterian Church, PC USA, right?

1:10

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That's right, I'm a teaching elder.

1:16

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Right.

1:17

And Joyce, when and where were you born?

1:19

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I was born in Richmond Virginia in 1997, I mean 1957!

1:23

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Okay! (laughing)

1:30

You had me worried for a minute there.

1:31

(both laughing)

1:33

You are so mature for your age. (laughing)

1:35

And I know, I know looking at your CV

1:39

you've been to several institutions,

1:43

so could you just quickly talk about

1:45

where you've gone to school?

1:47

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I did my undergraduate work at the University of Virginia,

1:51

and majored in religious studies there.

1:54

And then I was at Yale Divinity School

1:57

where I have an M.Div.

1:58

And at the UCONN School of Social Work where I have an MSW.

2:01

And while I was in ministry in Minneapolis,

2:06

I joined up with a cohort of the Presbyterian minister's

2:09

who were doing a demon and urban ministry

2:14

true McCormick seminary, so I did that.

2:17

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Wow.

2:20

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And then that gave me courage to go ahead and pursue

2:21

PhD studies at Emory university.

2:25

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Wow, that's impressive.

2:28

Interesting background. (laughing)

2:31

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Mostly it just means that I like school a lot.

2:34

(interviewer laughing)

2:36

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Well, I understand.

2:38

What work or ministry were you doing

2:41

at the time of Re-Imagining?

2:42

Which was 1993.

2:45

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I was in transition at that particular moment.

2:49

I had been serving in a UCC parish in Minneapolis.

2:51

I was at Mayflower UCC.

2:57

I had been there as an associate pastor

3:05

for a couple of years,

3:08

and an opportunity came for me to go to graduate school,

3:09

and so, at the time, I was just in my first year at Emory,

3:13

and had only been in Atlanta for a couple of months.

3:18

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Mmm, okay, that's helpful.

3:21

What work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

3:26

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When I finished my graduate program,

3:31

the portion that I had to do in residency in Atlanta,

3:35

I returned to Minneapolis,

3:39

and I worked as a social worker at Teenage Medical Services

3:42

which was then the Teen Clinic

3:46

of Minneapolis Children's Hospital.

3:49

I did that while I finished my dissertation,

3:53

and after that, moved to the Philippines where my spouse

3:57

and I were mission coworkers for theological education.

4:01

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Great, and currently you are professor of practical

4:07

theology and pastoral care at Yale Divinity School?

4:10

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That is correct.

4:13

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Good.

4:14

Thank you so much.

4:15

Joyce, I know you've written about this,

4:17

and taught feminist theology,

4:19

I'm wondering how and when did you first

4:20

become aware of feminist theology?

4:23

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I think I was born aware.

4:27

(both laughing)

4:29

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That sounds intriguing, you have to tell me.

4:34

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I mean, it's a little incidental story.

4:37

When I was born, I was born prematurely,

4:40

and my parents had not picked out any names for girls

4:42

because they were so certain that I was gonna be a boy.

4:46

Even my naming kind of happened in opposition.

4:51

(both laughing)

4:57

So it kind of bolted from there.

5:02

I think I have

5:03

long been aware of feminist thought.

5:08

When I got into my undergraduate program

5:11

at the University of Virginia of course there were not

5:15

courses in feminist theology there,

5:17

but there was conversation about liberation theology

5:20

and the emergence of feminist theology.

5:24

And so I began to read some of that material on my own

5:26

I found my way to Letty Russell and Rosemary and Ruether,

5:30

and some others.

5:34

And it was just deeply resonant.

5:37

I sort of read myself into that, and then when I was

5:41

choosing places that I wanted

5:44

to go for theological eduction,

5:47

I thought how nice it would be to go and study where

5:52

some of these women are teaching.

5:56

That's really how I ended up at Yale,

5:58

cause then in school I wanted to come and be in a place

6:00

where I could be in conversation about those things.

6:04

Which happened.

6:06

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Yeah.

6:07

Letty Russell was there, Margaret Farley, is that right?

6:08

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Right.

6:11

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Yes, yeah.

6:12

Oh thank you, that is really interesting.

6:13

I love the story about your name, too.

6:15

(laughing)

6:17

Could you say a little bit,

6:19

I know you were on the planning committee for the first,

6:20

the 1993 conference.

6:22

And I wonder if you could share some of your memories

6:24

of that committee, and what that was like.

6:26

But first of all actually, I apologize.

6:28

How did you first get hooked up with the planning committee?

6:29

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I was a member of the Twin Cities Area Presbytery,

6:34

and Sally Hill was the moderator when I was ordained,

6:39

in 1985, I guess it was.

6:44

Of course we all, my husband was working at Saint Luke's

6:51

where Mary Ann Lundy's husband was the pastor.

6:56

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Yes.

6:59

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It was sort of this small world,

7:01

and I was in conversation with people at seminary,

7:03

and we had a women's gathering,

7:08

a women's virtue gathering monthly, women of the presbytery.

7:11

And I suppose,

7:16

maybe it was Sally Hill invited me to be a partner.

7:19

I can't really remember now, but,

7:22

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Sure.

7:23

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I know it was through association of women who were

7:26

interested in feminist theology, and feminism in the church.

7:29

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Yes.

7:34

And what do you recall about that,

7:35

I know it's been a long time,

7:37

but what do you recall about that planning committee?

7:38

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A lot of laughter.

7:43

(laughing)

7:44

It was fun.

7:47

I also remember some particular decisions being made

7:49

that were significant.

7:54

One of them was,

7:55

that someone articulated out loud

7:58

the good of inviting

8:02

what we might call up and coming, or maybe lesser known

8:05

women and speakers.

8:10

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Yes.

8:11

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The choice to not just have the same people

8:13

that spoke already, had access to really.

8:16

But to have some fresh faces

8:19

and different voices on the platforms for the conference.

8:24

It was a very deliberate choice.

8:30

And so that's how we ended up with Mary Bednarowski,

8:32

instead of somebody who's out there all the time

8:36

talking historically about the church.

8:41

Or we ended up with Rita Brock, or others,

8:45

cause Rita was just coming in to everybody's consciousness

8:49

at that point in time, you know.

8:53

It was a very deliberate decision to do that.

8:55

I also recall the decision to

8:59

fully incorporate art into the conference,

9:05

and so having artists working while the meeting was going on

9:09

I think that was part of it.

9:15

What else?

9:20

Gosh.

9:21

Choices about

9:23

specific conscience elements I don't recall being on the

9:29

table at the time when I was involved with the committee.

9:33

It was more that shaping the container parts of it,

9:38

so things like deciding not to have a

9:41

static center or front.

9:47

But to have that move around, I think that was, you know,

9:50

part of the design work at the time.

9:54

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Do you recall why the decision was made to have the art

9:58

going on, and to not have a static center?

10:01

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I know that the issue of the static center was about

10:05

opposition to the kinds of hierarchies that get created

10:10

just by the way the furniture is set up in rooms,

10:13

and how that kind of

10:16

arrangement where there is eight fronts,

10:21

and the people who are, the speakers are at the front,

10:24

and the people who are in the very back have less access,

10:27

and maybe are participating differently

10:33

by virtue of where they are.

10:35

And so a hierarchy gets created implicitly,

10:38

whether it's intended or not.

10:41

I think the planning group was very intent on thinking about

10:43

the structural ways that the

10:47

unintended consequences

10:53

of things like how the furniture is arranged in a room.

10:54

And the reproducing

10:58

exclusionary dynamics in social gatherings,

11:04

and particularly in church and conference settings.

11:08

You know, we're all so used to walking into worship settings

11:12

where pews are in auditorium-like rows,

11:16

and the important people are up on a podium,

11:20

a chancel in the front,

11:22

and there are power differentials being expressed.

11:24

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Mm hmm.

11:27

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And it's not that, I mean the committee was not,

11:29

as I recall at least,

11:32

naive about power or negative about power.

11:34

I mean there was a great assertion of

11:37

the positive use of power on behalf of women.

11:41

But, there was a direct effort

11:46

to make intentional decisions

11:50

about the way power was structured and set up,

11:54

in the implicit design of the meeting.

11:59

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Yes.

12:02

And what about the inclusion of art?

12:04

And having artists working during the gathering?

12:06

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I think that probably it's most

12:10

closely with the whole title and theme,

12:15

the notion of Re-Imagining that is really about

12:19

envisioning imagination as a way of knowing.

12:24

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Mm hmm.

12:27

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And the tending to the power of the imaginary

12:28

in human experience.

12:33

Typically, I think this is still largely true,

12:37

it certainly is in a lot of university settings

12:41

that I have connections with,

12:43

there are hierarchies of knowledges,

12:47

and artistic imagination,

12:49

even we can see that devaluing over time of the humanities,

12:56

and of liberal arts as forms of knowing,

13:00

as containers for knowledge.

13:04

So I think the presence of working artists

13:06

during the meeting

13:10

was actually an effort to counter the assumptions

13:12

that knowledge is about work that speakers are saying

13:18

that can be written down in three point outlines.

13:22

And to know instead that our imaginations are

13:27

forms of knowing that are valued and important,

13:31

and in fact are

13:34

intimately tied up with the way we know the sacred,

13:38

how we have access to God and the holy is

13:42

an imaginative way of being in the world.

13:49

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Well said.

13:57

Before you move on, I wondered if you could tell me

13:58

some of your memories about Sally Hill.

14:00

As you know she is no longer with us,

14:02

and she was so instrumental in this.

14:04

It's helpful to hear people's memories of her.

14:07

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Well, one of my memories of her

14:13

actually is not from the conference.

14:16

She used to sit in the Presbytery meetings and do her,

14:19

can't remember all of the sudden if it was weaving,

14:24

or needle work, anyway,

14:26

she had a hand towel fabric art that she did all the time,

14:27

and she would bring that, you know,

14:33

and it used to really irritate some of the men

14:35

(laughing)

14:37

Because they assumed that she was,

14:40

I don't know what they assumed.

14:42

But it seemed like perhaps they assumed that

14:43

she was not paying attention, or that she,

14:45

the little old lady on the sidelines or something like that.

14:48

Clearly she wasn't.

14:51

She became the moderator of the Presbytery.

14:52

She was very active in church governors,

14:54

and decision making, and creative things that were happening

14:57

All sorts of stuff.

15:01

I just remember her doing that as kind of a

15:04

refusal to

15:08

be cooptive by a way of being in a meeting

15:12

that she didn't want.

15:15

And after her, I have taken that up.

15:16

I frequently take my cross-stitch into meetings,

15:19

because I find that it helps me to think,

15:22

to stay focused on what we're talking about

15:25

when I'm kinesthetically engaged with my hands

15:28

doing something else.

15:31

She's got that.

15:33

The other thing that I recall is how

15:34

Sally had a kind of dry humor about her at times.

15:39

And in that Re-Imagining group, in the planning group,

15:46

I just remember a lot of laughter, and a lot of it came...

15:54

She set it up that way (laughter)

15:59

Her name is on my ordination certificate.

16:04

I have memories of her because

16:08

she was the moderator at that time.

16:09

Being involved in that, which I did with some trepidation.

16:11

It was a little bit hard for me to take that step,

16:16

and she helped to see that through,

16:18

along with Liz Heller and some other important women

16:21

in the presbyterian

16:25

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Yeah.

16:26

May I ask why it was hard for you to take that step?

16:27

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I was coming in to a specialized ministry.

16:34

I was being ordained to a chaplaincy position in

16:37

adolescent chemical dependency treatment in

16:40

what was then Fairview Deaconess Hospital in Minneapolis,

16:45

and so I was coming into a ministry that didn't have

16:49

a church community attached to it.

16:52

And I was really feeling the absence of that sort of

16:56

sponsoring community.

17:00

And that just made it a little hard for me.

17:03

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Sure.

17:05

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Women in the presbytery stepped up,

17:06

and other people stepped up,

17:09

and we kind of made community around that occasion.

17:11

But it was just psychologically difficult for me to

17:17

be doing something that I understood as an athlete about

17:20

leadership and community,

17:24

without a concrete community.

17:28

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Yes.

17:31

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We can theologize about the way that specialized

17:32

ministries like chaplaincy are where one is sent by the

17:36

ecclesial community into the wider community permission.

17:41

So it's not that there's not a community there,

17:46

it's just not as readily visible

17:48

as if you're going into parish ministry.

17:50

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Right, oh that makes sense, yes.

17:52

Well I love that story, I especially love that story

17:54

of her doing that fabric art, and that you've continued it.

17:56

That's lovely.

17:59

So you were at the 1993 conference,

18:01

and I would love to hear your memories of that event.

18:05

What moments stand out for you?

18:08

What was your overall impression?

18:11

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I remember entering,

18:17

I don't know what other people call it,

18:22

I think of it as the Sophia blessing.

18:24

That happened as we came into the space,

18:27

and the tables were all arranged in a kind of big circle

18:30

with a podium somewhere.

18:34

And that blessing was something about

18:38

dreaming visions and sharing with,

18:44

and I don't really remember this word but,

18:45

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That's it, you got it.

18:49

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Okay, that passed in my compass

18:51

I remember that.

18:55

I remember probably one of the most powerful moments for me,

18:56

and this is unexpected, or was for me at the time.

19:01

There was a point when one of the speakers

19:06

invited LGBTQ folks who wanted to,

19:10

and were comfortable being out publicly,

19:17

to come up to the podium and claim their space there,

19:19

and be prayed with and for.

19:23

And also acknowledge that some people who are not at liberty

19:27

to do that, that they can't be safe,

19:31

and be known in the fullness of their identities.

19:35

And inviting others to stand on their behalf.

19:39

And I remember just being moved to tears,

19:43

oh gosh it touches me even now,

19:46

to think of the church as a comfortable place where

19:49

a liturgy could be deeply inclusive,

19:54

where leadership could be deeply inclusive,

19:59

where people's different identities could be celebrated.

20:03

To sort of have a visual bodily experience of that

20:10

in that very simple action.

20:15

That really stands out to me today.

20:17

It's one of the most moving things that happened.

20:21

Of course the final closing liturgy,

20:25

the infamous milk and honey.

20:28

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Yes. (both laughing)

20:30

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Who doesn't remember that?

20:35

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Right?

20:36

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I guess I never have really understood

20:46

why people were insistent that this had to be a

20:49

replacement Eucharist, because it wasn't offered that way,

20:54

it wasn't presented that way.

20:58

It was a liturgy inclusion.

20:59

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Mm hmm.

21:01

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That was in my memory and understanding,

21:03

of course memories elaborate things.

21:06

So who knows if this was actually what was going on but

21:08

my memory of it was that it was in part a way of saying

21:11

we come from different traditions,

21:15

and the safe community that can not officially all honor

21:19

each other's liturgies and leadership,

21:24

and practices in a way that makes us able to participate.

21:28

So what we're gonna do here is create

21:34

a closing liturgical action that everyone can be a part of

21:37

that is grounded in a scripture tradition

21:42

about milk and honey as, you know,

21:47

really substances that are common and that are

21:53

extravagant in their own way, and that are sweet and lovely,

21:57

and that are in many places connected within,

22:02

and in experiences.

22:06

And so, also connected with, you know there's psalm imagery

22:07

about sweeter than milk and honey,

22:15

God's law being sweeter than milk and honey.

22:17

I think that takes all my pain,

22:20

and other places where that figures in scripture.

22:22

I understood that liturgy to be about

22:25

a celebration of inclusion,

22:29

and a closure, a ritual closure to the event.

22:31

And of course then the parish that got a hold of it,

22:37

and went crazy with it.

22:40

Which was so disappointing.

22:44

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Yes.

22:46

Well that does bring us to the backlash,

22:47

which I know you know about.

22:49

First of all, were you directly affected by it at all?

22:50

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The only way that I was...

22:56

I was pretty removed at that particular moment in time

22:58

because I was a graduate student.

23:00

I was not in a church as a minister.

23:02

I was not leading a congregation.

23:06

Of course I participated in a church,

23:09

but you know, in the immediacy of Re-Imagining,

23:12

the churches that were removed from Minnesota context

23:16

were not all that involved in it.

23:22

They didn't have the presbyterian layman

23:23

in their face about it.

23:26

They weren't necessarily hyped up about it.

23:28

So the church that I was part of in Atlanta

23:31

wasn't really paying attention to that.

23:34

It wasn't a thing for them.

23:37

I wasn't in ministral leadership,

23:40

and I, as a graduate student I really was not very involved.

23:42

I kept my membership in the presbytery of the Twin Cities.

23:45

But of course I was absent, excused absent,

23:48

from most of the things that went on there,

23:52

because of the geographical distance.

23:54

So I wasn't in those conversations so much.

24:00

The backlash that I experienced was more on the level of...

24:04

Ideas I guess.

24:14

And also of distress at watching friends,

24:16

who were directly affected, or you know,

24:20

clergy who were having to make decisions about

24:23

whether to keep this event on their

24:26

on their CV's as continuing the education that they had done

24:30

because of the reputation that it had,

24:34

and what that would mean, et cetera.

24:37

-

Yes, yeah.

24:39

How did you react to the backlash?

24:41

First of all, were you surprised by it?

24:43

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I was a little surprised at the vitriolic nature of it.

24:47

It was...

24:51

It really came on strong.

24:56

And for instance, for Mary Ann Lundy

24:57

to end up losing her position

25:00

in the women's desk at the national church,

25:03

that was just crazy.

25:07

Mary Ann had done good and faithful and important work

25:10

in that position.

25:13

And her involvement and participation and sponsorship

25:14

of the conference was an act of affirmation and leadership

25:19

on behalf of community to women in the church.

25:27

It was as if she got demonized and tagged with

25:32

somehow being responsible for bringing the anti-Christ

25:36

into the PC USA.

25:39

-

Mm hmm.

25:41

Yeah.

25:42

-

And so she had to go, you know,

25:43

it was the kind of scapegoating mechanism

25:45

that was set into place.

25:47

And that really surprised me on an immediate level.

25:50

Upon deeper reflection, well,

25:55

maybe it's not so surprising that when

25:59

energy, intelligence, imagination, and love take shape

26:02

in ways that people aren't expecting,

26:06

that the forces of repression come out

26:09

and try to push it back down.

26:14

-

Mm hmm.

26:15

So that's how you would account for the backlash?

26:17

That's what was going on you think?

26:19

-

I think there is just so much fear about an inclusive

26:23

church that we don't know what looks like right now.

26:28

You know, Re-Imagining is about...

26:33

It's an eschatological hope.

26:36

-

Mmmm.

26:39

-

The ability to reimagine the church as a fully

26:40

inclusive community means being able to think something

26:46

we can't yet fully grasp,

26:52

even in our metaphors and our artistic imagination.

26:54

But we lean toward it, and strive toward it.

26:58

And for some people that's gonna feel really dangerous

27:01

because it threatens the status quo.

27:04

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Well I think you just defined...

27:08

Oh sorry, I think you just defined Re-Imagining beautifully.

27:10

What aspects of Re-Imaging were most significant to you?

27:14

And why?

27:18

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I think that, you know, as a feminist theologian

27:25

who also cares deeply about the life of the church,

27:28

it was really a empowering and hopeful sign to me

27:34

that we could gather, whatever it was,

27:41

2,000, 2,200, I don't remember, women, how many was it?

27:45

-

It was 2,200 total, yup.

27:48

-

Okay.

27:51

And who were involved in some ways,

27:54

participating in some way in

27:59

the life of the church ecumenical.

28:01

And could come together and hope for something more,

28:06

different, other, in addition.

28:09

In my work in my life, church and feminist theology

28:17

were often bifurcated from each other.

28:21

Even when I was looking for an academic job

28:25

post graduate school,

28:28

I was finding myself falling through the cracks.

28:29

I would be too feminist for some church-related conditions,

28:31

and too church for some feminist or religious studies

28:37

related positions and,

28:42

Re-Imagining for me was at least a place where I could

28:46

join with others who were being both of those things

28:51

at the same time.

28:53

-

Yes.

28:54

Yeah.

28:56

Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your

28:57

perspective at all on feminist theology and or the church?

29:00

-

Hmm.

29:05

Let's see.

29:10

I was trying to think about this earlier and...

29:13

I think that it made me more aware

29:18

of the dearth of imagination in a lot

29:25

of the ways we do church.

29:28

And so it really engendered in me a deeper commitment to

29:31

nurture imagination...

29:38

Through the kinds of narratives that we tell about

29:43

who God is, and who we are in relation to God,

29:45

and the ways that we seek to form

29:48

people, to apprentice them into faith,

29:53

the imaginative act of, for instance,

29:57

even engaging in some

30:00

small move towards justice

30:05

is really an imagination that things could be different

30:09

than they are now.

30:12

-

Mm hmm.

30:13

-

And I think that knit it together for me.

30:14

The conference helped to knit that together for me because

30:17

of the way that, well, for instance,

30:20

even that moment that I described earlier

30:23

that was so moving to me, and was a very concrete

30:25

act and gesture of a larger social issue

30:30

affecting the church that just by the physicality of it

30:35

gave a kind of visual metaphor to that kind of inclusion.

30:43

And I began to think a lot about the way that

30:48

church liturgy and ritual and education and care

30:51

need to engage imagination more.

30:56

-

Mm hmm.

31:02

-

And transcend the kind of boundaries and stuck places

31:04

where we get caught up in things.

31:07

-

Yeah.

31:09

In certain ways you're already answering this question,

31:10

but I'll ask it to see if there's anything you want to add.

31:13

Do you think that Re-Imagining made specific contributions

31:16

to feminist theology or liturgy?

31:19

-

I think we're still sort of living out the...

31:24

What do you call this?

31:31

What it means to have liturgies of inclusion

31:32

in our churches that also affects policy.

31:37

Because of course, the ways that we pray

31:42

shape who we are, and how we go about being church...

31:46

Ultimately the ways we are structured in our lives together.

31:51

And so I think there's been,

31:55

actually some hidden links between

32:00

some of the movements toward more spontaneity,

32:04

and liturgy, and some other things like that.

32:10

I will say, I think this is important,

32:13

although it sounds like I'm talking

32:16

out of both sides of my mouth when I say this.

32:18

When I show up in meetings like Re-Imagining

32:24

I often feel like the local conservative.

32:27

I'm not, but I can feel that way because

32:31

I'm not really into the goddess stuff.

32:35

-

Mm hmm.

32:37

-

I'm really contained to believe that the church can be

32:39

a vital and important institution.

32:44

As a means through which Christians work in the world.

32:50

I'm pretty Trinitarian in my faith,

32:57

and my expressions of faith.

33:01

I like and use the traditional language,

33:04

even as I like the disruption of traditional male language

33:10

about God and about people.

33:15

-

Mm hmm.

33:17

-

But for me, not just anything goes.

33:18

So I don't like, I don't tend to

33:21

be one of these feminists who is comfortable

33:24

making it up on the fly,

33:28

and just substituting any two words for any other two words.

33:29

-

Mm hmm.

33:33

-

I think liturgical language has deep meaning that

33:34

transcends the particularity and the words themselves,

33:38

and needs to be attended to that way.

33:42

Part of what Re-Imagining means,

33:47

and continues to mean for some people,

33:49

is a way to throw out the tradition

33:51

and put in something new where we can say anything we want.

33:54

Disrupt the tradition by throwing it out.

34:02

And that's not what it is for me, and I...

34:04

-

Can I interrupt for one second?

34:10

I'm sorry there's someone outside

34:11

that's making a lot of noise.

34:12

-

Sure.

34:14

(door closing)

34:17

-

Thanks Joyce, I apologize.

34:20

I'm sorry, so you were saying it's

34:23

not just substituting anything.

34:24

By the way, I'm curious, I know it's been a long time,

34:26

did you feel that was happening

34:29

at the 93 Re-Imagining conference?

34:31

-

You know, I think it depends a little bit

34:35

on how you look at it.

34:37

There are...

34:39

I'm fine being in a gathering like the 93 conference

34:44

where a lot of people are getting really jazzed about

34:49

goddess and dream goddess language,

34:53

because if that's, you know, you go be you.

34:55

If that is a helpful thing,

35:01

and helps make sense of what sacredness is for you,

35:03

then do that.

35:10

What I don't like is if...

35:12

Is assume that I have to do that in order to be

35:16

feminist theologian, right?

35:20

Or feminist via church.

35:22

-

Right.

35:24

-

And at any gathering where there's a disruption

35:26

of status quo, with alternative imagery and language,

35:29

there is going to be a lean toward

35:33

"Oh let's do this instead of that"

35:36

-

Yeah.

35:39

-

Let's do goddess instead of God.

35:39

Let's do some instead of

35:41

traditional Trinitarian language about God.

35:44

Let's do, whatever.

35:47

I don't think there was any kind of insidious pressure,

35:51

it's just that what you feel in those kinds of gatherings

35:56

when people are excited about something

35:59

new that they're doing.

36:01

-

Yeah.

36:03

Well you know it's interesting because

36:05

the charges of goddess worship were brought by the

36:07

presbyterian layman in good news.

36:10

And the people who organized Re-Imagining

36:12

said that that's not what they were doing.

36:14

-

That's right, that's right.

36:17

But, there were a number of places in the conference where

36:19

I think speakers used goddess language either in prayer or

36:24

in the conversations around the tables,

36:29

which were part of the design.

36:31

-

Ahhh.

36:33

-

People of course were free to speak

36:34

whatever they wanted to, and for some of them they were

36:36

in that space of talking about that.

36:39

Yes it is the case, but there was nothing in the formal

36:42

actual liturgical practices or...

36:46

Or the topics or anything like that.

36:50

That was about goddess worship.

36:54

That's very clear.

36:55

But, when you get 2,200 people interested in

36:57

feminist theology together,

37:03

-

Yeah.

37:05

-

In 1993 as well as now, there's gonna be some of those

37:06

other imagery of the sacred, including goddess imagery

37:09

is most useful and prominent.

37:14

-

Right.

37:17

Yes, thank you, you're right, yes, thanks.

37:18

I'm getting near the end here, I appreciate your comments.

37:21

In the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy

37:25

of the Re-Imagining conference and community?

37:27

-

I think a lot of people individually

37:35

experienced uplift, and that's a good legacy.

37:41

I think that,

37:46

ironically,

37:49

the repressive effect in communities of faith like

37:52

the presbyterian church and having to deal with the layman,

37:56

and the crack-down on staff people and all that stuff,

38:01

is the via negativa of the legacy.

38:07

It's the on-going...

38:12

The backlash is itself a legacy.

38:16

It's not a positive legacy, but it is part of the story

38:19

of how the church received alternative perspective,

38:23

and how it tries to maintain it's homeostasis

38:28

in the face of new stuff.

38:33

So that's important.

38:36

The positive aspects of legacy

38:39

are more the things that we've talked about, I think.

38:42

The things about an awakening of

38:45

possibilities of imagination, that church can be different,

38:49

that people can be together across various

38:53

kinds of identity differences that are present.

38:59

Certainly the movement for LGBTQ justice in the churches

39:03

and the, you know, the social movement, for example,

39:11

marriage equality movement and other things.

39:15

Those all don't have...

39:18

They don't happen in isolation from each other.

39:22

And I think something like Re-Imagining

39:25

in its own small way participates in moving the church

39:27

in a new way there.

39:32

Maybe even we could say some of the...

39:35

I'm not a huge emerging church fan,

39:38

but I will say that it's probable to me,

39:41

it makes sense to me that some of the

39:44

kind of gestures toward openness and

39:47

spontaneity and the kind of joy of

39:53

the Re-Imagining conference lends themselves to

39:56

re imagining church in some of the ways that emergent

40:03

churches are talking about.

40:06

-

Oh interesting, okay.

40:08

You know, some of the goals of Re-Imagining were to

40:10

bring inclusive or expansive language and feminist theology

40:12

to churches to kind of bridge that gap between

40:16

the academy and the churches.

40:18

How would you evaluate where we are today in that regard?

40:20

-

Yeah.

40:31

(laughing)

40:32

In some ways it feels like we've gone

40:35

a little bit backwards, actually.

40:38

And maybe that's the effect of the backlash.

40:42

There's a generation of young women in churches

40:51

and in society today who

40:54

say I'm not a feminist but,

40:58

-

Right.

41:01

-

Who choose to use other language to identify the

41:02

libratorian causes that they

41:06

that they are and feel, and that's okay.

41:08

-

Mm hmm.

41:12

-

What it does, however is

41:13

sometimes to not acknowledge the,

41:18

the way we all stand on each other's shoulders.

41:22

I stand on Letty Russel's shoulders,

41:24

and I stand on Rosemary Ruether's shoulders,

41:27

and I am here in my position at Yale Divinity School because

41:30

of the trouble that other women engaged in.

41:34

And I think...

41:37

Yeah, and so far as there is

41:39

a broader expanse of use of language or

41:44

of structure, or of white in the churches.

41:48

Moments like the Re-Imagining conference in 1993

41:53

don't cause them, but they certainly

41:57

participate and assist them.

41:59

So I think what I'm saying is,

42:02

where that occurs, it makes sense to me that it's

42:04

funded in some way by a little nomative.

42:07

-

Mm hmm.

42:11

-

Of libratory, emancipatory experiences

42:12

in a conference like that.

42:17

But there also is a lot of backlash,

42:19

so it's uneven, I guess that's what I'm saying.

42:20

-

Yeah, yeah.

42:23

I have two final questions, I appreciate your time.

42:24

One is a big question.

42:27

Given your writings, your position in pastoral care,

42:28

I would love to hear what you see as needing,

42:31

or re-imagining today, and I mean that in the broad sense.

42:34

I don't just mean the Re-Imagining conference.

42:37

What in the church needs to be re-imagined,

42:39

or is being re-imagined today?

42:43

-

I would put racial justice issues at the top of my list.

42:47

I think across the board in the way we educate for faith,

42:52

in the way we care for people in the community and the world

42:57

The way we engage one another across differences

43:03

of race and ethnicities,

43:06

the way we've learned whiteness,

43:09

and the meanings of whiteness that, you know,

43:11

the capacity to re-imagine what it means to be white,

43:13

without having that being mired in

43:18

it's legacy of blind privilege.

43:23

That's a really big step, and I think that's kind of the

43:26

fulcrum right now.

43:32

As many movements have made us more aware in recent days,

43:34

such as Black Lives Matter.

43:40

-

Mm hmm.

43:42

-

I would say the continuing search to understand

43:44

what God is

43:51

saying to us in scripture and how we,

43:54

how we make sense of scripture, what it means to us.

43:58

To talk about a text as authoritative in our lives.

44:01

That continues to open around questions of

44:07

who the interpreters are,

44:12

and all sorts of things like that.

44:13

That question's premial estate is there all the time.

44:16

But it's one that matters in this place.

44:20

Of course, always the big inclusion issues remain.

44:22

-

Mm hmm.

44:27

Thank you, that's great.

44:29

My last question is very specific.

44:30

We are working on a new Re-Imagining website,

44:33

and part of it would be historical.

44:36

We'll have a digitized version of all the conferences,

44:38

a lot of other historical materials.

44:42

But we'd also like to include resources for people today.

44:44

And I'm wondering if you have any ideas about

44:49

what should be included, and who would benefit from it?

44:51

-

Certainly would be good to include a link to

44:58

Mary Tutt and Diane Newman's center water.

45:04

-

Yes, mm hmm.

45:08

-

And some of their many many resources.

45:10

They have for instance, Diane has written this great...

45:13

It's available in a little packet of prayers for people

45:17

dealing with cancer, specifically for women, it's great,

45:21

that I use a lot in pastoral care work,

45:25

and the language is grounded and in reality,

45:28

and it's good stuff, it's powerful.

45:34

I would say a link there.

45:39

Gosh, there's so many, there's so many.

45:43

It would be interesting to have

45:48

some way of perioditizing bibliographies.

45:52

-

Mmm.

45:56

-

Because feminist theology, and feminist thought

45:57

happen in relation to the wider social movement

46:02

in which they're located.

46:07

I don't know if we would want to do it in terms of

46:12

language, first wave, second wave, third wave.

46:15

But at least to locate particular...

46:17

And scholarship of feminist theology in its context in time

46:25

would be helpful, for instance,

46:32

if you look at Letty Russel's very first published book,

46:35

-

Mm hmm.

46:38

-

She's writing as efficient educator,

46:38

and she uses male gendered language and pronouns throughout.

46:40

-

Yes.

46:44

-

By the time she wrote

46:45

Human Liberation, she has had a transformation there,

46:49

and is really calling on people to notice

46:53

the way that language and other things function

46:56

to create the realities that we know.

47:02

-

Yes.

47:05

-

Those two sources are part of a process

47:06

that feminist theology has been in.

47:11

-

Mm hmm.

47:14

-

And so if we had a way of reading things in their context,

47:15

I think it would help us make better sense of

47:19

some of the differences, and just the change across time

47:22

of feminist thought.

47:26

Because the central issue is that all feminist thought

47:27

is not the same thought.

47:30

-

Right.

47:32

-

All feminist theology does not say the same thing

47:33

about who God is, about the personhood, about church.

47:36

Evidence near daily.

47:40

-

Right.

47:42

-

So I think if we have the containers in a website

47:44

that offers people resources,

47:47

that it help them locate the various kinds of things

47:49

that they're looking at.

47:54

-

Oh that's a great idea.

47:55

Thank you.

47:56

Before we go, is there anything that we haven't discussed

47:58

that you would like to add, Joyce?

48:01

-

I'm glad you're doing this.

48:06

-

Thanks, me too.

48:07

-

It's pushing my memory, you know?

48:09

I have to reach back there a long way...

48:12

(laughing)

48:15

To remember what happened back then, but...

48:18

Yeah (laughs)

48:22

-

Well thank you, I'm gonna stop the recording now.

48:24

I really appreciate it, what a great interview.

48:26

Hold on one second.

48:28

Mercer, Joyce Ann

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