Tape 159 - Economic Outlook for 1975
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Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Interviewer | Hello this is William Clark | 0:02 |
of the Chicago Tribune. | 0:03 | |
Here again on behalf of Instructional Dynamics Incorporated | 0:05 | |
for another visit with the distinguished economist | 0:09 | |
Professor Milton Friedman of the University of Chicago. | 0:12 | |
Milton our friends at Instructional Dynamics again | 0:14 | |
have asked you to devote | 0:18 | |
this particular tape to an appraisal of economic prospects | 0:19 | |
for the coming year for 1975. | 0:24 | |
I wonder if a good way to begin the discussion | 0:27 | |
would be to establish where we are right now. | 0:30 | |
What has happened to us in '74? | 0:33 | |
Prof. Friedman | That is a good way to start Bill | 0:41 |
because I'm impressed by the contrast | 0:45 | |
between | 0:49 | |
the picture one would draw | 0:51 | |
of where we are on the basis of newspaper headlines. | 0:54 | |
Even the headlines in your estimable paper, | 0:58 | |
the Chicago Tribune. | 1:00 | |
On the one hand | 1:02 | |
and the cold hard statistics on the other. | 1:04 | |
To judge from the newspaper headlines | 1:07 | |
we are in a very severe contraction. | 1:10 | |
Unemployment is spreading apace. | 1:13 | |
The recession is deep. | 1:15 | |
There are major layoffs everyday. | 1:17 | |
One gets all the | 1:20 | |
tonal values | 1:23 | |
of even | 1:24 | |
of 1932 | 1:26 | |
in similar episodes. | 1:27 | |
To judge from the cold hard statistics | 1:30 | |
we have been having a slow down. | 1:33 | |
We have been having a sidewise movement. | 1:35 | |
We are undoubtedly in my opinion in a recession, | 1:38 | |
but it is an extraordinarily mild recession so far. | 1:42 | |
We are currently operating at an extremely high level | 1:45 | |
of economic activity. | 1:48 | |
There is very little sign of anything like | 1:50 | |
the kind of major contraction one might get | 1:53 | |
from the newspaper headlines. | 1:56 | |
For example, suppose you look at the compare this | 2:00 | |
movement so far with the 1970 recession. | 2:02 | |
In 1970 we had a recession which by all counts | 2:07 | |
was the mildest recession in the post war history | 2:10 | |
and indeed one of the mildest in all of our history. | 2:14 | |
If you look at the figures for the current period | 2:17 | |
I think one should say | 2:19 | |
that when the National Bureau comes | 2:21 | |
to inscribe this episode in economic history | 2:23 | |
I believe it will probably date the recession | 2:27 | |
as having started in November 1973. | 2:30 | |
So that it's just about a year old now | 2:35 | |
and though the forecast and the expectations | 2:37 | |
that this may be the longest post war recession | 2:40 | |
may well be on their way to being fulfilled. | 2:43 | |
But in terms not of length, but of | 2:46 | |
depth of intensity. | 2:50 | |
So far you have had very very mild effects. | 2:53 | |
If you look at employment the number of people employed | 2:58 | |
in the 1970 recession as in almost every other recession, | 3:03 | |
employment fell. | 3:06 | |
So far to date employment has risen somewhat. | 3:09 | |
The number of people with jobs today | 3:12 | |
is higher than it was a year ago. | 3:14 | |
If you look at unemployment during the 1970 recession | 3:18 | |
unemployment rose by about 2.5% points. | 3:22 | |
So far it has risen by about 1.5% points. | 3:26 | |
True we started from a somewhat higher level | 3:30 | |
so that the actual level of unemployment now | 3:33 | |
is closer to the level at the end of the 1970 recession. | 3:37 | |
But so far as the change is concerned, | 3:42 | |
it's so far been very much less. | 3:44 | |
If you look at industrial production, | 3:47 | |
industrial production fell during the course | 3:49 | |
of the 1970 recession | 3:51 | |
at an annual rate of something like about 7% to 8%. | 3:52 | |
That overstates the decline | 3:55 | |
because it was exaggerated by the General Motor strike, | 3:57 | |
which came at the end of the period. | 3:59 | |
But maybe 5% with annual rate | 4:01 | |
would be a more reasonable estimate. | 4:04 | |
So far in this recession | 4:06 | |
it has been falling at an annual rate of 2% | 4:08 | |
And so you go down the line. | 4:11 | |
If you look at indicators of physical volume of activity, | 4:13 | |
which are all the things I've been talking about. | 4:17 | |
Leave aside the inflation problem for the moment. | 4:19 | |
The general impression you get | 4:22 | |
is that we have sort of been staggering along sideways | 4:24 | |
with a little upturn | 4:27 | |
that we have been having a very mild movement until now. | 4:29 | |
Now I believe, and we'll come to this later | 4:32 | |
that the movement may intensify | 4:34 | |
But as of the situation now, it's mild. | 4:35 | |
The question arises why is there this contrast between | 4:38 | |
what the numbers are showing | 4:41 | |
and what the headlines are saying. | 4:43 | |
I believe there are two separate reasons for it. | 4:45 | |
One, is the general increasing political consciousness | 4:48 | |
of economic activity. | 4:53 | |
It's become the major obsession of every politician. | 4:54 | |
You can't hear a politician talk without the economy, | 4:57 | |
unemployment, inflation becoming in the forefront. | 5:00 | |
This is exacerbated of course, by the sharp contrast | 5:06 | |
between a democratically controlled congress and house | 5:09 | |
and a newly.. | 5:12 | |
A newly appointed. | 5:14 | |
I was starting to say elected, | 5:15 | |
but a newly designated president who is a republican | 5:17 | |
and who is being tested in the political hustings | 5:22 | |
in terms largely of his economic policy. | 5:26 | |
But I think there is also a second reason | 5:29 | |
which is more substantive. | 5:31 | |
This has to do with a particular role | 5:33 | |
of the automobile industry is playing in the situation. | 5:35 | |
Many of the headlines have to deal with layoffs by GM, | 5:39 | |
by Chrysler, by Ford, and so on. | 5:42 | |
The area of the economy which is hardest hit. | 5:43 | |
Well the two areas are housing and automobiles. | 5:47 | |
Housing has been hard hit for some time, | 5:51 | |
but automobiles is the most recent. | 5:53 | |
And I think there is a tendency to extrapolate | 5:55 | |
from automobiles to the economy. | 5:58 | |
Automobiles are extremely visible. | 6:00 | |
When General Motors lays off | 6:02 | |
some tens of thousands of people that hits the headlines. | 6:03 | |
The fact that a large number of other enterprises | 6:06 | |
around the country are not laying off people | 6:09 | |
does not hit the headlines. | 6:10 | |
Now the automobile situation | 6:12 | |
has been attributed to the recession, | 6:14 | |
but I think that's a gross over simplification. | 6:16 | |
The high price of gasoline and oil | 6:19 | |
as a result of the oil crisis of a year ago | 6:22 | |
unquestionably has made automobiles less attractive | 6:27 | |
has tended to reduce the demand for automobiles | 6:30 | |
that already was felt to some extent in the last year, | 6:32 | |
but I think the situation has been obscured by another fact | 6:36 | |
which is that the 1975 automobiles | 6:40 | |
carry a lot more mandated equipment | 6:42 | |
in the way of safety equipment | 6:44 | |
and anti-pollution equipment, than did the 1974 cars. | 6:47 | |
As I understand it there's something | 6:51 | |
like a thousand dollars worth of stuff on the 1975 car | 6:52 | |
that no automobile purchaser ordered | 6:56 | |
or would have been likely to order | 6:59 | |
if he had been left to his own initiatives. | 7:00 | |
Some of it is pure waste. | 7:02 | |
Like the interlock system, | 7:04 | |
which has now been declared non-mandatory by congress | 7:05 | |
in which therefore people buy in order to disconnect. | 7:08 | |
But beyond that, some of the other items on it may be good | 7:12 | |
from a social point of view. | 7:15 | |
That isn't the question, | 7:16 | |
but from the point of view of the purchaser. | 7:17 | |
He is no fool and he was aware long ago | 7:19 | |
that if he bought a '75 car he was going to have to pay | 7:22 | |
for stuff that he didn't want to a greater extent | 7:25 | |
than if he bought a '74 car. | 7:28 | |
So I think to a very large extent | 7:30 | |
the effect of the oil crisis on the demand for automobiles | 7:31 | |
was muted in the '74 model year | 7:34 | |
by shifting of demand | 7:37 | |
from the '75 model year to the '74 model year. | 7:38 | |
And a result the automobile situation looks a lot worse | 7:41 | |
than anything that could be attributed | 7:46 | |
to simply the recession as a whole. | 7:48 | |
In a nutshell then, up to this point | 7:50 | |
we have been having a very largely sidewise movement. | 7:53 | |
A recession, the beginnings of a recession, | 7:57 | |
but extremely mild, | 8:00 | |
much less extreme than one would gather from the headlines. | 8:01 | |
William | Dr. Friedman it occurs to me that a year ago | 8:06 |
you were predicting for 1974 | 8:09 | |
rather more inflation | 8:12 | |
than most of your fellow economists and you were so right. | 8:14 | |
Lately, I think you've been on the | 8:18 | |
perhaps on the low side of the consensus | 8:19 | |
in predicting further inflation. | 8:22 | |
Are you holding to that view as we move into '75. | 8:25 | |
Prof. Friedman | Yes I think so. | 8:29 |
If one looks again along the lines that you | 8:30 | |
suggested at the forecast that people are making a year ago | 8:34 | |
for 1974. | 8:38 | |
There is one striking feature of them | 8:41 | |
that I think needs to be born in mind | 8:43 | |
in making predictions for 1975. | 8:45 | |
The forecasters, the consensus forecasters, almost everybody | 8:49 | |
was very nearly being on the mark | 8:54 | |
with respect to the change in nominal GNP. | 8:58 | |
Almost everybody was predicting | 9:05 | |
that nominal GNP, | 9:07 | |
GNP in dollars would rise in 1974 | 9:10 | |
at the annual rate of something like 8% to 10%, | 9:15 | |
7% to 10% was enclosed almost all the estimates. | 9:17 | |
In fact if you take the third quarter GNP this year | 9:22 | |
over a year ago the rise was roughly | 9:27 | |
was almost exactly 8%. | 9:30 | |
The fourth quarter GNP figures aren't in, | 9:33 | |
but that will almost surely show | 9:35 | |
something like 8% to 9% annual rate arise. | 9:36 | |
So in that respect everybody was right. | 9:39 | |
However, what everybody was wrong | 9:42 | |
was in the breakdown of that rise in nominal GNP | 9:47 | |
between prices and output. | 9:50 | |
The consensus forecast was pretty much | 9:53 | |
that 2% or 3% of that would be an output | 9:56 | |
and 5% or 6% at the most would be in prices. | 9:59 | |
The actual outcome is that if you look at those GNP figures | 10:04 | |
it's been more nearly something like 10% or 11% | 10:08 | |
in prices and something like minus 3% in output. | 10:12 | |
So the breakdown has been very different. | 10:18 | |
Now I think one wants to be a little bit careful | 10:21 | |
in taking those figures seriously. | 10:24 | |
As I mentioned before on these tapes | 10:25 | |
there is some inconsistency | 10:28 | |
between what the GNP figures seem to be showing | 10:30 | |
and what the other figures I was just citing a moment ago | 10:33 | |
like employment, industrial production, | 10:36 | |
and so on are showing. | 10:39 | |
And one of the possible explanations for that is that the | 10:41 | |
rise in prices has been over estimated | 10:45 | |
because to some extent you had artificial elements in it | 10:47 | |
arising out of the unveiling of price increases | 10:51 | |
that have been repressed before by price controls | 10:55 | |
out of the precautionary price increases | 10:57 | |
that people are making now in fear of future price controls. | 10:59 | |
So maybe a fairer statement would be | 11:03 | |
that it hasn't been 11% or 12% in price rise, | 11:05 | |
but it's been something like 9% or 10% . | 11:09 | |
But even so GNP would down by minus 1%. | 11:11 | |
Well the same.. | 11:15 | |
now as a year of a year ago I was on, | 11:16 | |
as you say on the high side | 11:19 | |
in the sense that I thought the rate of increase of prices | 11:20 | |
was gonna be much higher than most forecasters did, | 11:23 | |
but I have to confess in retrospect that even I was too low. | 11:26 | |
I said in the corresponding tape a year ago | 11:30 | |
that if we got | 11:33 | |
if the rate of inflation was below 7% or 8% per year | 11:34 | |
it would be a mini miracle. | 11:37 | |
Well it wasn't. | 11:39 | |
It was 11%, | 11:39 | |
but my saying that implies | 11:40 | |
that I didn't think it was gonna be 10% or 11% or 12%. | 11:42 | |
I thought it was gonna be about 8% or 9%. | 11:45 | |
But nonetheless, that breakdown was largely | 11:47 | |
on the high inflation side. | 11:51 | |
Now, looking forward to 1975 | 11:53 | |
I think you will again find | 11:57 | |
that most consensus, most forecasters | 11:58 | |
are very close together in what they are predicting | 12:00 | |
for nominal GNP. | 12:03 | |
My own belief is the nominal GNP will go up somewhere | 12:04 | |
in the range of 6% to 8% next year over this year. | 12:08 | |
Maybe a little higher. | 12:13 | |
Maybe a little lower, but somewhere around that range | 12:15 | |
and I suspect most forecasters are going to come out | 12:18 | |
with a very similar number. | 12:20 | |
Where you will find the forecasters different | 12:22 | |
is in how they divide that again between prices and output. | 12:25 | |
On the one hand I think as you properly say | 12:29 | |
the consensus this year is on the high side. | 12:33 | |
They seem to be adjusting to their mistake last year. | 12:36 | |
And you see most forecasts I believe | 12:39 | |
are running about 8% to 10% inflation over 1975. | 12:41 | |
Almost all of them are thinking there will be tapering off | 12:48 | |
but not very much. | 12:51 | |
William | If 10% over 1974. | 12:52 |
Prof. Friedman | Over 1974, in 1975. | 12:55 |
William | Yes. | 12:57 |
Prof. Friedman | Now if that happens | 12:58 |
and if nominal GNP goes up at 6% to 8% | 13:00 | |
your going to have a decline in real GNP | 13:05 | |
of something like 2% to 4% and this will be | 13:08 | |
a turn from its present, very mild recession | 13:13 | |
into a much more severe recession. | 13:17 | |
On the other hand, | 13:21 | |
if you take the kind of picture | 13:22 | |
I'm inclined to take which is | 13:25 | |
that I think the rate of inflation will be much | 13:27 | |
will be less than that. | 13:30 | |
That it will come down to maybe something like 6% or 7%. | 13:31 | |
Then you have essentially a zero rate of growth of real GNP | 13:35 | |
and then you have a continuation of a recession, | 13:40 | |
but not a really severe one. | 13:43 | |
Getting somewhat more severe than it is now, | 13:46 | |
but not a great deal. | 13:49 | |
Now, what is the basis for this statement? | 13:51 | |
Part of the basis which I have expressed in earlier tapes | 13:55 | |
is that I believe | 13:58 | |
that some of the present inflation is bubble | 13:59 | |
that the real underlying hardcore inflation | 14:02 | |
justified by prior monetary expansion | 14:04 | |
is in the neighborhood of 6% or 7%. | 14:07 | |
And you ought to be getting back to that. | 14:09 | |
That the bubble effects, oil, food, | 14:11 | |
but more important unveiling of past price controls, | 14:14 | |
fears of future price controls | 14:19 | |
those will be washed out of the statistics | 14:21 | |
and out of the price rise in the future. | 14:24 | |
Secondly, | 14:27 | |
the recession it takes as I mentioned | 14:29 | |
in the tape a year ago, | 14:33 | |
generally speaking it takes about a year before | 14:34 | |
between a slow down, a peak in the economy | 14:38 | |
and it's having any effect at all on inflation. | 14:42 | |
Well, we're just about a year | 14:45 | |
from what I think was a peak in the economy | 14:46 | |
of November of last year, was a peak. | 14:48 | |
We're about a year. | 14:50 | |
so we ought to be starting having those effects. | 14:51 | |
In the third place, we did have a substantial change | 14:54 | |
in monetary policy in June. | 14:58 | |
There was no change before that in terms of M2. | 15:01 | |
The quantity of money have been rising at about 10% per year | 15:06 | |
for the three or four years prior to June 1974. | 15:09 | |
In terms of M1 it had been rising at about 6% to 7%. | 15:14 | |
From June to now it's only about four months, | 15:18 | |
but if you take that four months period | 15:21 | |
M2 has been rising at about 6% | 15:23 | |
and M1 about 2% to 3%. | 15:26 | |
This is a very distinct change and it is interesting | 15:29 | |
that you are just about now beginning to get evidence | 15:33 | |
that the recession has been become somewhat more severe. | 15:36 | |
That from being upward movement | 15:40 | |
it's turned now into a mild downward movement. | 15:42 | |
That's just about on schedule. | 15:45 | |
The standard delay between a change, | 15:47 | |
the substantial change in monetary growth | 15:50 | |
and physical output is between six and nine months. | 15:53 | |
And we are just coming about to the six months. | 15:56 | |
This is December we're just about six months | 15:59 | |
from the change. | 16:01 | |
So we ought to start having a somewhat deepening | 16:02 | |
of the recession. | 16:05 | |
As a result I do think | 16:06 | |
that the recession will become somewhat deeper | 16:08 | |
over the next quarter or two | 16:11 | |
without going into the doom and gloom forecast | 16:12 | |
without thinking it's going to be a | 16:16 | |
major or a drastic recession. | 16:17 | |
I think it will deepen somewhat | 16:19 | |
and come closer to being like 1970 or a little more. | 16:20 | |
I was stressing before that up to now | 16:24 | |
it's been much milder than anything you had before | 16:26 | |
and it may now turn into something | 16:29 | |
a little bit more severe than 1970. | 16:31 | |
That will reinforce the tendencies toward | 16:34 | |
a slower rate of price rise. | 16:39 | |
That arise from the mild slow down of the past year. | 16:42 | |
Now of course much there will depend | 16:49 | |
on whether the Fed continues with its policy. | 16:51 | |
We'll get back to that a little later | 16:53 | |
to what we think their future policy will be. | 16:55 | |
But looking ahead for the next six or nine months | 16:58 | |
which is about as far as you can look on the basis of policy | 17:01 | |
up to this point. | 17:04 | |
I would say that you.. | 17:06 | |
I would expect a continued decline. | 17:08 | |
I would expect it to get somewhat more rapid | 17:11 | |
that the rate of decline of industrial production | 17:13 | |
will get higher than the 2% rate | 17:16 | |
we so far been experiencing. | 17:18 | |
Unemployment will rise from its present 6%, | 17:20 | |
perhaps to seven. | 17:23 | |
Maybe a little higher, maybe a little lower. | 17:25 | |
But the rate of inflation will taper off down to something | 17:27 | |
like about 6%, 7%. | 17:30 | |
With nominal GNP rising at the rate of 6%, 7% | 17:33 | |
or something like that, | 17:36 | |
that means your horizontal in output, | 17:37 | |
but nonetheless unemployment rises | 17:41 | |
because you've got an increasing labor force. | 17:42 | |
The normal trend is about a 4% per year increase | 17:44 | |
in real output and so horizontal movement in output | 17:47 | |
is essentially a recession relative to trend. | 17:51 | |
Well those are.. | 17:55 | |
That's fundamentally the major basis for my belief | 17:56 | |
that you will have less inflation | 18:01 | |
over the next six or nine months, | 18:04 | |
over the next year | 18:06 | |
than I think most forecasters are expecting. | 18:08 | |
I hastened to say that in view of my past record | 18:10 | |
and the past record of other forecasters | 18:14 | |
in predicting the breakdown of nominal income | 18:16 | |
between prices and output | 18:19 | |
that's not a prediction in which anyone ought to have | 18:20 | |
enormous confidence, myself included. | 18:23 | |
William | Well I think you did pretty well | 18:25 |
a year ago Milton. | 18:27 | |
What would you suggest might happen to interest rates | 18:28 | |
in this six to nine month period? | 18:31 | |
Prof. Friedman | Well short term interest rates | 18:33 |
have been coming down and there is.. | 18:35 | |
Expect for the past few days | 18:38 | |
they've shown a little blip again, | 18:39 | |
but there is every reason to expect | 18:41 | |
that as the economy does weaken | 18:43 | |
over the next six or nine months | 18:46 | |
short term interest rates will continue to come down. | 18:48 | |
Long term interest rates are much more complicated | 18:51 | |
because here we have to ask | 18:53 | |
what is the inflationary expectation | 18:55 | |
that is built into long term interest rates? | 18:58 | |
As of now there has been no sign | 19:01 | |
of any real tapering of off long term interest rates | 19:04 | |
and it's not fair that there should be. | 19:08 | |
If you take the average rate of inflation | 19:11 | |
over the past five years it's been over 6%. | 19:13 | |
If you take a very very conservative forecast of inflation | 19:18 | |
over the next five years is there anybody who believes | 19:21 | |
that we're likely to less inflation | 19:24 | |
over the next five and over the past five? | 19:26 | |
If that's the case you start | 19:29 | |
with a base inflation rate of 6%, 6.5%. | 19:31 | |
You add on to that a 3% real rate of interest | 19:34 | |
you're up to 9.5%, | 19:37 | |
which is a range in which | 19:39 | |
the high-grade corporate bond yields have been. | 19:41 | |
So I expect to see very very little tapering off, if any, | 19:44 | |
in long term interest rates | 19:49 | |
over the next five or six months. | 19:51 | |
I think what you'll have is that short rates will come down | 19:53 | |
but long rates will either stay steady, | 19:57 | |
come down a trifle or may even rise. | 20:00 | |
William | You've mentioned the influence of course | 20:04 |
of monetary and fiscal policy | 20:06 | |
and whether that is predictable or not I don't know, | 20:08 | |
but perhaps you'd like to comment on that at this point. | 20:10 | |
Prof. Friedman | Well I will. | 20:13 |
That's the biggest uncertainty in my own mind. | 20:15 | |
I think the most likely scenario | 20:19 | |
is that current monetary policies | 20:21 | |
will be continued a little bit longer. | 20:23 | |
At this slow rate of monetary growth of somewhere around | 20:26 | |
3% in M1, 6% in M2 | 20:32 | |
may continue for a few more months, | 20:35 | |
but I have no great confidence that it will. | 20:37 | |
As unemployment does rise somewhat up until 7% range | 20:40 | |
as you continue to have the pressure | 20:47 | |
which you are now having to do something about unemployment | 20:49 | |
and particularly, if the rate of inflation | 20:52 | |
does start coming down appreciably in the next few months. | 20:55 | |
I think there will be tremendous pressure | 20:57 | |
on the monetary and fiscal authorities to expand. | 20:59 | |
And I fear very much that they will give into it | 21:02 | |
as they have before. | 21:04 | |
So my actual prediction, not my prescription, | 21:06 | |
but my prediction is that what we are going to see | 21:09 | |
if the scenario I've described works itself out. | 21:12 | |
If the recession continues and becomes somewhat more severe | 21:15 | |
over the next six months, | 21:18 | |
if inflation rates tapers off substantially | 21:19 | |
you will have tremendous pressure for reductions in taxes | 21:23 | |
on the one hand and for a great, | 21:28 | |
more rapid rate of monetary growth on the other. | 21:30 | |
I suspect that will happen. | 21:33 | |
I suspect the result of that will be. | 21:35 | |
And while inflation will continue to taper off | 21:38 | |
or will rather stay down around 6% or 7% | 21:40 | |
because the basic monetary growth of past years | 21:43 | |
does not justify anything much lower than 6%. | 21:47 | |
You would have to continue the present monetary growth | 21:49 | |
of 3% in M1 or 6% in M2 | 21:53 | |
for something like two years, | 21:56 | |
in order to justify a much lower rate | 21:58 | |
of monetary inflation than 6%. | 22:00 | |
So I think inflation rate will hover around 6% | 22:04 | |
maybe come down a little below that, maybe come above, | 22:08 | |
but that the economy will start turning up. | 22:10 | |
You will start getting the initial effects | 22:13 | |
of a more expansive monetary policy. | 22:15 | |
Along about mid or late '76 | 22:17 | |
when the economy is recovering | 22:20 | |
the inflation will start coming out. | 22:22 | |
The inflationary pressure will start coming out. | 22:25 | |
At that point if we don't have it before | 22:28 | |
and I think we will not | 22:31 | |
there will be enormous pressure | 22:33 | |
to impose wage and price controls | 22:34 | |
as a way of restraining that pressure | 22:36 | |
while permitting the economy to expand. | 22:37 | |
So that my longer range prediction again in which I have.. | 22:41 | |
I want to emphasize the element of uncertainty about it, | 22:46 | |
is that the recession will come to an end in something like | 22:50 | |
the second or third or maybe fourth quarter of 1975. | 22:53 | |
The economy will start moving up. | 22:58 | |
Inflation will continue to slow down or taper off. | 23:00 | |
It will start picking up in early or mid '76. | 23:03 | |
You will have wage and price controls reimposed | 23:07 | |
on August 15th 1976, | 23:10 | |
the fifth anniversary of President Nixon's imposing of. | 23:12 | |
I don't mean to take that date seriously, | 23:15 | |
but I mean the general scenario. | 23:18 | |
And if that happens the wage and price controls | 23:20 | |
will then breakdown about the end of '77 | 23:24 | |
early '78 at which time rates of inflation | 23:26 | |
will be in the neighborhood of the 15% level. | 23:29 | |
I hope I am wrong | 23:33 | |
in that prediction. | 23:34 | |
- | I hope so too. | |
Prof. Friedman | And it is, we will have time | 23:36 |
to see whether the the necessary preconditions for it | 23:38 | |
work out so it's not something | 23:43 | |
in which one has to make a decision right now. | 23:45 | |
William | Course an area of tremendous concern | 23:48 |
is this matter of oil supply and gasoline prices | 23:50 | |
and the whole subject of energy. | 23:52 | |
William | (coughs) Excuse me. | 23:55 |
Though this is a program in which you can't deal | 23:57 | |
with many subscribers' questions. | 23:59 | |
Mr. Herbert A. Cook, President of Airpex Electronics, | 24:02 | |
asks a couple of questions | 24:06 | |
which may launch us into this subject. | 24:07 | |
He says, "Do you still think | 24:09 | |
the international oil cartel will collapse? | 24:10 | |
You predicted this last year, | 24:13 | |
but at present it looks pretty successful." | 24:15 | |
And then he also asks, | 24:17 | |
"What is the short range and what is the long range effect | 24:18 | |
of the enormous Arab oil payments | 24:21 | |
on the national economies of the major nations?" | 24:24 | |
Prof. Friedman | I was a little too optimistic a year ago | 24:28 |
in predicting that the oil cartel would collapse. | 24:31 | |
I'm afraid I made the mistake | 24:36 | |
which I often have made in the course of years. | 24:37 | |
You see the logic of the situation | 24:40 | |
and you expect it to develop more rapidly than a dozen. | 24:42 | |
You don't allow for the time lag sufficiently. | 24:45 | |
I believe the analysis that I made a year ago | 24:48 | |
of the oil cartel is in its basic element sound. | 24:51 | |
This is a temporary cartel which is capable for time | 24:55 | |
of holding up the prices very high | 24:59 | |
because of the short run inelasticity | 25:01 | |
of demand of alternative supplies. | 25:05 | |
From the longer range point of view | 25:08 | |
I do not see how it can last | 25:09 | |
and the signs | 25:12 | |
of the weakness have already become manifest. | 25:15 | |
On the one hand total world consumption has been going down | 25:19 | |
in response to high prices. | 25:22 | |
On the other hand there has been an enormous expansion | 25:24 | |
of drilling for alternative sources of supply. | 25:27 | |
In the third place, | 25:31 | |
the output of the hardcore members | 25:33 | |
of the cartel has been going down. | 25:36 | |
Libya is now supposedly producing at a rate of only 40% | 25:39 | |
of what it was producing a year ago. | 25:44 | |
The Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait | 25:46 | |
are producing at something like 20% or 30% | 25:51 | |
below their potential. | 25:54 | |
Everyday that passes, | 25:59 | |
the pressure on this hardcore group intensifies. | 26:00 | |
As they are required to cut their production | 26:03 | |
in order to maintain the prices high. | 26:07 | |
This showed up in the fact that at their recent meeting | 26:09 | |
for the first time there was no increase in the price | 26:11 | |
on the contrary they agreed to hold the price steady. | 26:14 | |
So I am still of the opinion | 26:17 | |
that the price of oil will come down | 26:19 | |
and come down sharply, | 26:21 | |
but I have to confess that it has been taking longer | 26:22 | |
than I expected it to. | 26:26 | |
As to the financial problems | 26:28 | |
I'm afraid that opens up a bigger story | 26:32 | |
than we can deal with successfully in the negative time | 26:34 | |
that we have remaining. | 26:39 | |
William | [laughs] Thank you very much Dr. Friedman. | 26:40 |
Perhaps we can discuss that on a future tape. | 26:42 | |
If subscribers would like to suggest other subjects | 26:45 | |
for discussion on future interviews | 26:47 | |
please write your suggestions | 26:50 | |
to Instructional Dynamics Incorporated | 26:51 | |
450, four five oh, East Ohio Street, | 26:55 | |
Chicago Illinois, 60611. | 26:58 | |
We'll be visiting with Professor Milton Friedman again | 27:01 | |
in a couple of weeks. | 27:04 |
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